Mixed Level Grouping in MMOGs

[Wolfie]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

kaev wrote:

> There are exactly two ways to make truth out of
> your claim that:
> '"Level" has nothing to do with "learning."'
>
> One is to adopt a definition of learning that excludes
> experience (let us not forget that "levels" are the product of
> "experience" in the games under discussion, eh?).

No, let's not. "Learning" in EQ (and EQ2, can't speak
to others) is represented by skill increases. That's the
same type of "learning" veteran troops give recruits,
skilled craftsmen give apprentices, etc. The other
type of "learning" - experience - is *only* gained by
doing the work yourself.

> Perhaps that accounts for your confusion.

I'm not confused -- I just have a different viewpoint.
I deal all the time with people with "learning" (college
degrees) without experience and people with
"experience" (levels, if you will) with older or no
"learning" (college degrees.) They're different
things to me. Yes, you can use "learning" as a
catch-all, but almost all people can see the difference
between experience and "learning."

Levels are gained by "doing," not "watching." That
is the basis of the apprentice system -- give the new
guy smaller, easier tasks, and let him work his way
up. Yes, the more experienced person is available
to provide training -- just like a person in EQ (and
supposedly shortly in EQ2) gets "training points"
to use.

I just disagree with your assumptions. You're looking
at real-world models without seeing the underlying
dynamics, IMO.

 

[Wolfie]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

D.J. wrote:
> "Wolfie" <dbgbdwolf@gte.net> wrote:
> ] Right. Because the "ignorant and unskilled" people aren't
> ] the ones leading the work or doing the "skilled" work. An
> ] "ignorant and unskilled" carpenter doesn't get any better,
> ] BTW, simply by standing next to a master craftsman. He
> ] gets better by actually doing his work.
>
> No. The unskilled carpenter gets better by being told by the master
> carpenter what the unskilled carpenter is doing wrong. Just doing
> carpentry, with no feedback, doesn't mean the unskilled carpenter
> will learn anything, except if they keep cutting off fingers they
> will find the job more difficult.

And the apprentice will STILL have to do the work to
improve... Feedback IS important, obviously. But
you do NOT get better by being told what you're doing
wrong, you get better by doing...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Wolfie" <dbgbdwolf@gte.net> wrote:
] And the apprentice will STILL have to do the work to
] improve... Feedback IS important, obviously. But
] you do NOT get better by being told what you're doing
] wrong, you get better by doing...

One of my relatives measures to the 'nearest half inch' when making
anything. You should see his bookshelves. Of course, its one of the
major reasons we never give him power tools for gifts. He gets tired
when using a hand saw, so he prefers power tools. Hmmm. No, if I
showed the bookshelf, you might have nightmares.

JimP.
--
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://blue7green.drivein-jim.net/ December 4, 2004
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ October 24, 2004:
http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/new.html Dec 5, 2004 AD&D

 

[Wolfie]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

D.J. wrote:
> "Wolfie" <dbgbdwolf@gte.net> wrote:
> ] And the apprentice will STILL have to do the work to
> ] improve... Feedback IS important, obviously. But
> ] you do NOT get better by being told what you're doing
> ] wrong, you get better by doing...
>
> One of my relatives measures to the 'nearest half inch' when making
> anything. You should see his bookshelves. Of course, its one of the
> major reasons we never give him power tools for gifts. He gets tired
> when using a hand saw, so he prefers power tools. Hmmm. No, if I
> showed the bookshelf, you might have nightmares.

Unless you've never told him that's wrong, that just proves
my point... It's not the feedback, it's actually taking it and
doing something with it...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Wolfie" <dbgbdwolf@gte.net> wrote:
] D.J. wrote:
] > One of my relatives measures to the 'nearest half inch' when making
] > anything. You should see his bookshelves. Of course, its one of the
] > major reasons we never give him power tools for gifts. He gets tired
] > when using a hand saw, so he prefers power tools. Hmmm. No, if I
] > showed the bookshelf, you might have nightmares.
]
] Unless you've never told him that's wrong, that just proves
] my point... It's not the feedback, it's actually taking it and
] doing something with it...

Multiple times over multiple decades we've told him thats bad.

JimP.
--
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://blue7green.drivein-jim.net/ December 4, 2004
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ October 24, 2004:
http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/new.html Dec 5, 2004 AD&D