Question MOCA repeaters - comm w/Gateway

[mocanet]

Quick question, FiOS MoCA network: Do Actiontec 6200 MOCA WiFi extenders need to communicate with the G6100 gateway, or only the ONT?

I ask because nearly all houses are going to have at least one splitter with isolation 25 - 30 dB between any 6200 extender and their G6100 gateway, and in fact most houses probably have a few, each adding additional splitter loss (3 - 10 dB) between these two devices.

However, if the 6200 extenders communicate only with the ONT, then it's really just some splitter losses (3 - 10 dB /ea) between these devices, no concern with massive 30 dB splitter isolation. This would dictate typical MOCA network layout.

Also, is there any need for 6200 extenders to communicate directly with each other, if perhaps a device connected to one is trying to communicate with a device connected to another? Or does all comm route back thru the gateway or ONT?

Thanks!

 

[bill001g]

Been a long time since I looked FIOS stuff. Don't they have something newer than the 6100.

I am somewhat confused. I will assume you are actually trying to use the moca feature in the fios gateway. You can of course use your own router and use the ethernet port on the ONT. Then moca would be the same as any other non fios house.

The problem is the ONT does not do the NAT function. The single IP address you have is given to your gateway/router. The end devices using moca must talk to that device.
Moca cabling can be complex made even more so with the fios implementation. Hard to say your optimum connection. Maybe you could add another splitter between the ONT and the gateway to connect the rest of your house.

All moca devices can technically talk to each other. This like powerline network function as big switch but it work more like a old style hub since it is half duplex and they need to use a method to avoid devices transmitting at the same time. Moca tends to work very well.

I have not stayed on top of fios but do they support the new moca that has a 2gbit total network bandwidth.

 

[mocanet]

Thanks, Bill! I'll try to answer as best I can.

Been a long time since I looked FIOS stuff. Don't they have something newer than the 6100.

I'm sorry, I misspoke. It's the G1100 Gateway. They upgraded us to this with our last plan upgrade, about 2-3 years ago.

I am somewhat confused. I will assume you are actually trying to use the moca feature in the fios gateway. You can of course use your own router and use the ethernet port on the ONT. Then moca would be the same as any other non fios house.

We actually have two separate MOCA networks, as we have 15 coax receptacles scattered across the house, 10 of which home-run back to the utility room where the ONT and G6100 reside.

Net1: We hung an ECB6200S02 MOCA adapter off one of the Ethernet ports on the G6100 gateway, and a 3-way coax splitter off that ECB6200, feeding three of the FNE6200 MOCA WiFi extenders. Totaly separate MOCA LAN running 1 Gbps.

Net2: As you note, the "FIOS net" containing any STB's will only run 100 Mbpsm, and the gateway must reside on this net to serve menu and on-demand content to the STB's. We only have one of our WCB6200 MOCA WiFi extenders on this net, as there's no home-run cabling available for that particular extender. The trouble here is that I believe there's massive isolation (25-30 dB) between any two outputs of a coax splitter, and these devices must exist on separate legs of a splitter, in this case with much cabling and subsequent splits downstream of the first/primary split.

I estimate the total signal loss between G1100 Gateway and this one extender must be approximately:

50 dB isolation from primary splitter (its a cascade 3.5/7.5/7.5 with gateway on 3.5 dB port)
12.5 dB isolation from secondary splitter to G1100
1 dB cabling to G1100
10 dB cabling to splitter
5.5 dB splitter
3 dB cabling to WCB6200
====
82 dB, or thereabouts

I could drop 25 dB off this by re-arranging the ports on the first splitter hanging both the WCB6200 and G1100 off the two 7.5 dB ports on that first splitter. I was focused on signal loss between ONT and gateway, when I chose that arrangement.

If this forum has a place to upload files, I could upload a PDF of the arrangement. I don't have any good anonymous space to upload files for linking here, I don't usually encounter forums that don't permit file upload, anymore.

 

[bill001g]

It sounds like you have a very good grasp of how these things are setup and the things you need to deal with.

I assumed you were using those moca adapters because they were compatible with the Fios. I know the fios doesn't(?) support the newer moca 2.5. The 2.5 moca adapters from gocoax and some other vendors actually are cheaper than some of the slower actiontec ones. Actiontec for whatever reason does not sell their 2.5 models in the consumer market.

Keeping the 2 networks separate is going to make things a bit easier. Even though it is just 2 "moca" network all the device are on the same lan network. This way you only have to worry about getting the one moca adapter talking to directly to the fios gateway to work well.

I suspect this is going to be trial and error. From what i could tell when I used to use moca it tolerates a lot of db loss and still functions. My cuurrent house has ethernet in every room and I have ATT fiber so my knowledge is a bit outdated.

 

[mocanet]

Thanks. Yeah, it's been working (mostly) pretty well. The data rates are at or above what I'd expect for this setup, which is good enough for our needs. But we do have more random drop-outs than I'd like, where a device just drops a connection or won't connect, for whatever reason. In these cases, our iOS devices will show good WiFi signal, but won't connect, which tells me the extenders have probably momentarily lost their internet connectivity.

Hey, is there a good place to host a pdf file, if I want to discuss more details? I could also convert to an image format, if that makes it easier. I'm really surprised this forum doesn't allow for direct uploading of images or files.

 

[bill001g]

You would think as long as I have been around I would know this. I think people use IMG site. There is a stick on some thread.

I depends on what "connected" means. You can connect to wifi and get the wifi radio link established with no actual network. Technically you could use static IP and talk to other users on the same wifi AP/source. Without static IP it should connect to the wifi but of course never get a ip address if the moca connection to the router is down. It will appear connected but not function. I am unsure what apple devices call this condition. Windows complains about a parital connection.

I will assume you are not getting fancy and using enterprise mode on the wifi where the passwords are not stored locally.

Maybe take a pc and hook it to one of the extenders with a ethernet cable and leave a constant ping run. If that does not disconnect when a wifi device does then it is some strange wifi issue.

 

[mocanet]

Maybe take a pc and hook it to one of the extenders with a ethernet cable and leave a constant ping run. If that does not disconnect when a wifi device does then it is some strange wifi issue.

That's a good idea. It's really only the one WiFi extender on net2 that's suspect, so I can easily try that. If you know a simple utility that would do this, let me know, otherwise I'll just write a batch file and trigger it from Windows Task Scheduler. I'd guess one ping per minute and logging to a text file should probably reveal any problems, if they exist.

 

[Math Geek]

you have to have the router in the mix since it is the first end of the Moca connection. the ONT does not have that. my dad still has the old G1100 router and 2 of those 6200 extenders all running strong still.

the newest router they sell is actually Moca 2.5. this is why the older extender no longer works (well that and they want you to buy a new very expensive extender)

i have an updated G1100 myself in my house. i only use it for the Moca end and run ethernet to a much better wifi router. that's all it does for me so never bothered to spend the cash for the newer router since i won't use the features. i have an extender as well but did not buy the verizon one. was a small space in the far corner and did not need a strong signal. so i bought a $10 Moca wifi router off ebay and it does the job fine

i also have the issue of my phone and tablet being connected to the wifi but certain apps won't connect. if i reboot the phone it works again, but if i leave the house and come back, for some reason it starts doing that. i've yet to figure out why myself but it's not the connection itself since the pc's and other devices never have the problem.

it's only my mobile devices that do it and it does seem to be tied to leaving the house then coming back. it's not every app either, only a few of them which also makes no sense. my browser will work fine, but a game or my youtube front end won't connect. weather app connects, but the built in weather app does not.....