News Mockup of AMD's Zen 4 Raphael CPU Appears With Potential Specs

CerianK

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I'd say that would definitely be within the realm of possible or even expected on 5nm. If not for Zen 4, practically certain for Zen 5.
I was extrapolating from the table in the article that listed the maximum cores as 24, which only makes sense to me in terms of 2x12 core chiplets.
I guess the question I was really asking is (something like): Where did that '24' figure come from (specific core count leak?) and/or how might it have been inferred from other data (land count or other specs?)?
 

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I was extrapolating from the table in the article that listed the maximum cores as 24, which only makes sense to me in terms of 2x12 core chiplets.
3x8 would be feasible too: 5nm chiplets will be smaller, the IOD may also shrink a bit, and the new package will likely have its pinout significantly re-arranged to better accommodate the chiplet-based setup.
 
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Kamen Rider Blade

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I'm thinking that the future will eventually have:
_4x Core CCX dies
_6x Core CCX dies
_8x Core CCX dies
12x Core CCX dies

All, using the same Core designs of course.

This way AMD can Mix & Match to get up to 12x Cores per CCD.

Having 4x CCX dies of varying core counts will allow AMD to create CCD's ranging from 4-12 Core CCD's based on pairings and offer a wider, more fine tuned range of Cores for all segments (Budget/Consumer/Prosumer/Enthusiast/Enterprise).

And given how good the yields are, only having to disable 1-2x Cores because of Yield reasons makes sense IMO.

I also don't see AMD moving past 2 CCD's for the consumer end.

Any CPU with higher CCD count would go towards a new higher tier of CPU.

Personally, I think ThreadRipper will be the High End for Consumer and AMD should launch a new Mid Tier platform.

I wouldn't be surprised if they brought back the FX line and made that a mid tier CPU platform.
 

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Having 4x CCX dies of varying core counts will allow AMD to create CCD's ranging from 4-12 Core CCD's
The 8-cores CCDs on 7nm are only 81mmsq in size and that is probably close to about as small as you can go before wasting a disproportionately large amount of wafer space on cutting lines between dies. You also need chips to be of a certain minimum size to fit all of the power and IO balls under them. Going any lower than 8-cores per CCD wouldn't make much sense. Going up to 12 cores however would keep CCD size around 80mmsq and allow AMD to keep practically the same substrate layouts it got used to with Zen 2&3.
 
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Plot twist, it's a 4x6 configuration instead (from defective 8-core CCXes) , especially if they shrink the I/O die since I believe the current ones are still 14nm. If they drop it to 7nm, which at this point is mature, that could provide enough room to make a baby Threadripper/EPYC. Though the 2x12 configuration would make the most sense. It's not like core counts have to be natively a power of 2.

A 3 chiplet configuration I can't picture because of the problem trying to make the dies equidistant from the I/O die to ensure equal latency without doing something dumb-sounding like lengthening the traces for the other two chiplets.
 
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Kamen Rider Blade

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The 8-cores CCDs on 7nm are only 81mmsq in size and that is probably close to about as small as you can go before wasting a disproportionately large amount of wafer space on cutting lines between dies. You also need chips to be of a certain minimum size to fit all of the power and IO balls under them. Going any lower than 8-cores per CCD wouldn't make much sense. Going up to 12 cores however would keep CCD size around 80mmsq and allow AMD to keep practically the same substrate layouts it got used to with Zen 2&3.
AMD still needs to cater to lower Core Markets / Budget markets.

Making a new Die Mask for 4x Core & 6x Core CCX's makes sense.

Especially as yields for 8-cores are getting better over time.

The PCB Substrate is a seperate issue from the Polymer CCD package that holds the CCX's.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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They can have APUs for that.
Given the lack of yields on APU's and the entire Mobile Market needs APU's on top of DeskTop APU's.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

I can't see AMD giving up on 4/6 core low end Ryzens anytime in the future, especially since Intel is in that market competing for the DeskTop market.

And DeskTop APU's are a seperate market that is going to need it's own MoBo types, which will eventually happen.
 
Making a new Die Mask for 4x Core & 6x Core CCX's makes sense.
Except AMD doesn't seem keen on doing that. The entire Ryzen 3000 lineup, obviously minus the APUs, use the same 8-core chiplet. Plus masks are a significant cost of development, so you don't want to make them just because you want a new configuration.

Given the lack of yields on APU's and the entire Mobile Market needs APU's on top of DeskTop APU's.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

I can't see AMD giving up on 4/6 core low end Ryzens anytime in the future, especially since Intel is in that market competing for the DeskTop market.

And DeskTop APU's are a seperate market that is going to need it's own MoBo types, which will eventually happen.
Intel's CPUs also include an iGPU. Any non APU AMD quad core is going to need a video card which will more likely than not increases costs. And before you go "but who needs an APU for desktops?" Businesses, governments, or just about any other place out there that use a typical office setup and would rather use desktops. Mobility is kinda pointless when the computer isn't actually, you know, mobile.
 

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I can't see AMD giving up on 4/6 core low end Ryzens anytime in the future, especially since Intel is in that market competing for the DeskTop market.
What is AMD doing about the $100-250 price range right now? Nothing. It could launch a Ryzen 5600 non-X if it wanted to, it is choosing not to.

AMD isn't bothering with budget-oriented chips right now because it is maxed-out on wafer allocations pumping out higher-end parts and trying to keep up with contractual obligations.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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What is AMD doing about the $100-250 price range right now? Nothing. It could launch a Ryzen 5600 non-X if it wanted to, it is choosing not to.

AMD isn't bothering with budget-oriented chips right now because it is maxed-out on wafer allocations pumping out higher-end parts and trying to keep up with contractual obligations.
We're not in a normal market situation. Demand exceeds Supply, so anything sells.

COVID-19 has screwed things to hell & back. So everybody is trying to fill in the top end of their product stack first.

Eventually, when we get back to normality; Intel will have 4/6 core budget oriented chips, and I expect AMD will match them.


Intel's CPUs also include an iGPU. Any non APU AMD quad core is going to need a video card which will more likely than not increases costs. And before you go "but who needs an APU for desktops?" Businesses, governments, or just about any other place out there that use a typical office setup and would rather use desktops. Mobility is kinda pointless when the computer isn't actually, you know, mobile.
I concur, that there will be a market for AIO APU's.

But just like in the past, there will be a market for lone 4/6 core CPU configs.

Intel will cover that market, and I don't expect AMD to cede that part of the market to Intel in the future.

Everything Intel can do, AMD can do better in a like for like setup.

Same with AMD, Intel will try to compete in that category if possible given their current technological setup.
 
I concur, that there will be a market for AIO APU's.

But just like in the past, there will be a market for lone 4/6 core CPU configs.

Intel will cover that market, and I don't expect AMD to cede that part of the market to Intel in the future.

Everything Intel can do, AMD can do better in a like for like setup.

Same with AMD, Intel will try to compete in that category if possible given their current technological setup.
I don't really expect AMD to push any harder than they've tried with the commodity computer market. If anything, their main push has been towards the the big guns like data centers and servers, because that's where a lot of the money is. And this approach seems to be consistent with what they've done in the past 10 or so years before Ryzen: build a decent CPU for that market and trickle it down to the consumer lineup.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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People who want 4-6 cores CPU-only can buy the APU rejects or buy something previous-gen.

There is such a thing as markets not worth catering to. At least not using a current-generation process with limited available wafer capacity.

Eventually, when we get back to normality; Intel will have 4/6 core budget oriented chips, and I expect AMD will match them.

It's not going to happen right now, but when we return to business as usual, and the market returns to sanity; there will be budget CPU's in those configs.

Both AMD & Intel will cater to them. It'll be part of their product stack.

I don't really expect AMD to push any harder than they've tried with the commodity computer market. If anything, their main push has been towards the the big guns like data centers and servers, because that's where a lot of the money is. And this approach seems to be consistent with what they've done in the past 10 or so years before Ryzen: build a decent CPU for that market and trickle it down to the consumer lineup.
Yes, they will build a good CPU core, one Core that will be copy & pasted into the various Core configs in various CCX sizes.

AMD started with 4-core CCX's, I expect them to eventually return to them.

There's a market for them, and that won't go away.

Same with Virtualization for Enterprise level CPU's.

The Quad Core isn't going to go away anytime soon.

Lots of Enterprise Virtual Instances will still use Quad Cores as their setup for basic end users.

I expect that to be the case in the future.
 

zodiacfml

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My first guess is a 12 core CCX but Apple M1 is 8 cores, then again, M1X is rumored to have 12 cores. My final answer is 12 cores. It would be complicated and pricey for a desktop product with more than two CCX. More CCX increases latency making it less ideal for high bandwidth loads such as gaming. Launch date is far into the future which indicates a more advanced product than today
 
Although we didn't count the contacts, we can assume that each section holds 859 contacts.
It shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to count them. Going by that picture, each half contains a grid of 79 rows of 10 pads, plus two shorter columns near the edge containing another 69, so (790 + 69) x 2 = 1718.

What we don't know is that if the AM5 socket will retain the locking mechanism or the mounting holes. At this point, it's anyone's guess whether consumers will need to invest in a new cooler, or if existing cooling solutions are still viable with a mounting converter kit.
If they are keeping the socket size the same as AM4, I would suspect they would probably want to maintain backward compatibility with existing aftermarket coolers to keep the transition as smooth as possible. Intel might be breaking cooler compatibility with Alder Lake, but they are changing the dimensions of their socket, and that will be after maintaining compatibility with existing coolers for over 13 years by that point. I can't see AMD breaking cooler compatibility with AM5 just 5 years after requiring manufacturers to update their mounting hardware for AM4 if they can help it. Unless their LGA socket design requires the processor to be mounted at a different height or something, I would think they wouldn't make any changes.

AMD still needs to cater to lower Core Markets / Budget markets.

Making a new Die Mask for 4x Core & 6x Core CCX's makes sense.

Especially as yields for 8-cores are getting better over time.
The yields are likely be getting better for 7nm chips, but they should be moving to the 5nm process node for Zen 4, and I doubt there's any verifiable information publicly available about what the yields for these chiplets will be like on that node. Not as good as on 7nm is probably a safe bet though.

Also, I don't see the point of 4-core chiplets. The only 4-core non-APU processors AMD has launched after the 1000-series have been either OEM-only parts, or parts that were only available in very limited quantities, based on chips that didn't meet the standards for higher-core parts. Currently, AMD has the same chiplets used all the way from their mainstream processors up to their server parts, and that gives them more flexibility to bin chips based on their characteristics for different processors. And they probably wouldn't want to mix chiplets of different core counts, since that would mean different cores would have access to different shared cache capacities. No one is likely to pay a big premium for a high-binned quad-core at this point, so that silicon would be wasted for low-end chips, and any quad-core chiplet with a defective core would need to be sold as something like a dual-core, which is probably a waste to use a chiplet design for. And most of those picking up budget quad-core and dual-core chips, especially in 2022 and beyond, are likely to be using them with integrated graphics. Though I suppose I could see them adding integrated graphics to the IO chip to enable IGPs across the lineup. Really though, there probably wouldn't be much benefit from manufacturing budget desktop parts on the latest node unless they used the same silicon as their laptop processors, and those are more likely to remain as monolithic chips for the time-being.

That being said, 12-cores seems like a lot to put in a chiplet, and having only 12-core chiplets would probably not be a very efficient way to do things, at least if they plan on using multi-chip designs for their 6 and 8-core parts. Maybe having 12-core and 6-core chiplets could make some sense, though I would not be surprised to see them stick with 8-cores per chiplet for their Zen 4 lineup. They will be making a lot of changes to their processors and platform, and saving a core-count boost per chiplet for a future generation might make more sense. After all, the vast majority of today's desktop usage scenarios tend to see little benefit from moving from 6-cores up to 8, let alone 12, so I'm not sure there's enough demand for 12+ core desktop processors outside of relatively niche markets, and it seems unlikely that will change much in the next year.

A 3 chiplet configuration I can't picture because of the problem trying to make the dies equidistant from the I/O die to ensure equal latency without doing something dumb-sounding like lengthening the traces for the other two chiplets.
I don't see why that would necessarily be a problem. They could likely rotate the chiplets 90 degrees and fit three side-by-side, especially if the IO chip were a bit narrower. A smaller IO chip might also be positioned in a more centralized location, with chiplets positioned on three sides, for example.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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No they won't.

More smaller CCXes increase core-to-core latency and fragments the L3$ pool. The only reason AMD started with quad-core CCXes was because 12/16nm was too slow to put eight cores in one CCX.
In the long term, we'll see who's right.

And don't forget that on 7nm, Ryzen 3000 series had 4 Core CCX's as well in the form of the Ryzen 3 3300X .

Intel has the Core i3 10000 line that is entirely 4 Cores.

Eventually, there will be another increment of 4 Cores for both Intel & AMD.

That's why the i3 and Ryzen 3 lines will exist as 4 Cores.

The bottom end for those who need that type of computing.
 
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AMD started with 4-core CCX's, I expect them to eventually return to them.
I think we're confusing CCX with the actual die. All Ryzens, except for APUs, used what was originally an 8-core die.

But again, making another configuration of a die isn't cheap. AMD doesn't seem to be hurting to make another configuration of the CPU cores considering they can cover a wide range of products with what they have now. What benefit would they have by making a 4-core die?
 

InvalidError

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In the long term, we'll see who's right.
Yes, we'll see.

I think we're confusing CCX with the actual die. All Ryzens, except for APUs, used what was originally an 8-core die.
And that's why I think AMD will limit its entry-level options to APUs - one die for the low-end no-IGP and the general with-IGP crowd. At least until Zen 5 where all SKUs allegedly gain an IGP, which I'd presume would be integrated in the IOD so AMD can offer 2-3 tiers of IGPs across its CPU range by swapping IODs and substrates.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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I think we're confusing CCX with the actual die. All Ryzens, except for APUs, used what was originally an 8-core die.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ccx-definition-cpu-core-explained,6338.html
For example, an AMD CPU with 8 cores will have a CCD with two 4-core CCXs.


CCX generally refers to the individual CPU Cores on the dies that are cut from the waffer.

CCD refers to the packaging holding all the Dies together into one Polymer package that eventually gets bonded to the CPU substrate via BGA.

That's how I've been using the definition.

How have you been using it?

But again, making another configuration of a die isn't cheap. AMD doesn't seem to be hurting to make another configuration of the CPU cores considering they can cover a wide range of products with what they have now. What benefit would they have by making a 4-core die?
Because it's part of their product stack, to eventually cover the low end.

Why does NAVI 20 or NAVI 10 come in multiple dies, to cover multiple parts of the market.

Eventually as AMD sells more Cores and increases the Core Count for Ryzen 9, there has to be a bottom limit.

That bottom limit has already been historically established as 4-cores.

Intel's i3 10,000 series and Ryzen 3 3000 series

And CPU & APU will co-exist, just like in the 3000 series time frame.

The only reason it doesn't exist now is because COVID-19 has thrown everything in a loop and everybody's schedule is out of whack.

Because Demand OutrStrips Supply, both AMD & Intel only bother with their High End & Mid-Range part of their new product stack.

And usually the bottom part of the stack is always "Last" to come out with little to no fanfare.
 

Kamen Rider Blade

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And that's why I think AMD will limit its entry-level options to APUs - one die for the low-end no-IGP and the general with-IGP crowd. At least until Zen 5 where all SKUs allegedly gain an IGP, which I'd presume would be integrated in the IOD so AMD can offer 2-3 tiers of IGPs across its CPU range by swapping IODs and substrates.
I don't think AMD would integrate the IGPU into the IOD, that's unnecessary complexity.

AMD would most likely make it's own IGPU chiplet and use a empty Chiplet(CCD) Slot to place it in.

That's far simpler and more flexible than to merge a IGPU into the IOD.

You're thinking in a overly complex method.

AMD has done fine without needing a IGPU on every product & Intel was forced to create product SKU's without IGPU's to match AMD's product stack.

AMD already has APU's, but not IGPU for regular desktop CPU's.

Making their new IGPU a Chiplet makes more sense from a logistics & manufacturing perspective.

IOD should remain simple & low powered.

IGPU should be off on it's own.

Then they can slot the IGPU across the Top/Bottom of AMD's product stack. From Ryzen -> ThreadRipper -> EPYC.

I don't expect the IGPU to exceed 12 CU's of whatever NAVI 2X / 3X / 4X architecture that it's based off of.

No need to compete with it's own low end product stack on the Radeon side.