[SOLVED] MSI B450 tomahawk or GIGABYTE B450 AORUS ELITE

[Riddlich]

Hi, fist of sorry for my bad english.

I'm building a computer and I can't desire which one I to chose. both seems a availability option for my computer which are,

Amd ryzen 5 2600
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1070 Ti 8 GB AORUS.

I am building a black and orange theme and should I chose Gigabyte B450 AORUS Elit because of the graphic card or should I chose MSI B450 tomahawk because more recommend it for AMD ryzen 5 2600? (as more review)

Thanks for the responds

Update: I'm going to wait and get the amd ryzen 3000 and buy a motherboard for it, right now I going to have eye on the new motherboard that have PCIe 4.0 and just wait

 

[Darkbreeze]

I don't know who "recommends" it "highly", but personally I'd probably choose the Gigabyte as I've a lot of problem threads here related to the Tomahawk. The Aorus elite actually has a better VRM configuration judging by it's 4+3 VRM setup versus the 4+2 configuration on the Tomahawk. Haven't actually used either of these boards, but at the budget end of the charts Gigabyte has a much better track record than MSI does.

 

[SPECOPS70]

i just got the MSI x470 for $130 on amazon. I also got the Ryzen 5 2600. Bought them for my son. He was running an FX 6300 pc and would lag and stutter on oculus. Built it for him yesterday and it is running amazing. I also added two ssd's plus his two hdd's along with 16 ddr4 and a gtx 1060 It runs all games including Oculus flawlessly! Awesome combo. good luck.

 

[SPECOPS70]

oh and a GTX 1060

 

[Darkbreeze]

X470 is a chipset, not a model number. As model numbers go, it is only PART of a model number. Has to be something like B450 Tomahawk, or X470 Gaming Plus, or X470 Pro Carbon, etc. Just MSI x470 doesn't mean or tell much about the hardware other than the fact that it's the higher end chipset and that sets it apart from a B450 chipset board, but that is about it. Honestly, if you pay less than 140 bucks for an MSI board, from just about any chipset whether on the Intel or AMD sides of the river, it's a crapshoot. Some are firmly happy and a lot of others end up having to RMA due to quality or defect issues.

 

[SPECOPS70]

x470 gaming plus

 

[DavidM012]

2high side mosfets per inductor means the vrms run at 80c on the tomahawk which is cooler than the auros says the review I read on overclockers forums. That makes it sound good for overclocking but idk if it has any other issues some say msi support is awful but you won't need it if you build right and choose the right memory for it the only problem I've heard about so far is fortnite crashes but fortnite crashes on a variety of rx580 systems in any case if none of the b450 suits you that only leaves x470chipset boards the msi x470 doesn't look exorbitant at £120 it's about £40 more so splashing for a good board isn't too painful either way.

There's lots of reviews and forums to check out if anything worries you take grumbles with a pinch of salt.

 

[Darkbreeze]

I haven't seen many complaints about practically any of the X470 boards, regardless of manufacturer, to a degree. Obviously all boards can have issues, but I haven't seen any common troubles on any of them. B450 is a different story and I don't know everything that happens out there, or what the numbers actually look like based on the universal sample, but for what "I" have seen, here on Tom's, the numbers are higher for problem rates on any of the cheaper MSI boards than with the less expensive models from Gigabyte, ASRock or ASUS. Over and over I've seen it. Even when other members or mods have disagreed, they've typically been coming back later to change that tune because they see a reversion in the quality control that we HAD seen get better from MSI for a few years there. Again, good graphics cards, but I don't ever recommend ANY MSI motherboard simply because if their budget boards have higher than average failure rates, there's a problem with quality control and that is enough for me to not recommend ANY of their boards.

Also, as I mentioned before, you're going to see a few others here and there that adamantly disagree due to the success they've had with their sample of one or two boards. I won't convince those people and don't care really if they believe me or not. If they had good luck with their's, that great, really it is, but a lot of others have not. Perhaps this could be said for other brands as well, but it's not what I have seen.

Really doesn't matter WHAT the VRM configuration looks like, if cheap mosfets or caps are used, it's still going to see higher than normal failures. Same goes if the assembly and quality control are not good because ALL manufacturers have defective products, it's just that the better ones weed them out more successfully because they actually care to do that.

 

[DavidM012]

Maybe that would be a concern if you were building a lot of machines but one home user, someone will get the occasional doa no matter what

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/b450-gaming-plus-vs-b450-tomahawk.3457547/

Don't see a grumble there suppose you can search msi tomahawk on the forum search page up there see what people have been griping about.

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/msi-b450-tomahawk-issue-please-help.3456405/

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/help-msi-tomahawk-b450.3461466/

couple of Helps! Doesn't post, more questions than answers tho.

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/msi-or-gigabyte.3416517/

Another one for the tomahawk and they ridiculed him.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Well, if "I" were the one buying it, I wouldn't want to roll those dice. I'd rather spend a few bucks more and avoid the potential headache of a return or RMA in the even I DID have an issue. But certainly it could also not be an issue, probably more often than it is. Still, even if the chances (Not that they ARE, just IF) were one board bad out of 20, hate to be the one that gets that board when I could have bought something else. MSI support on motherboard RMAs is pretty good from what I hear, trouble is I hear it often, which tells me something about those boards.

 

[DavidM012]

Same could apply with any board. What's an rma with a good vendor? All help desks have their moments but for the most part every time I've asked a question I've received an answer from practically any of the mainstream vendors. I was perfectly comfortable buying my sabertooth repacked from the amazon warehouse sans accessories and saved £50 and nothing wrong with it though I wouldn't buy 2nd hand from ebay simply because there's no telling how much someone has over clocked on it for how long.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Same could apply with any board.

That's the whole point. We don't typically see the same numbers from other manufacturers budget series boards. I'm not saying THAT particular board is a sure fail. I'm just saying that the lower end MSI boards have higher failure rates in my experience. That is all.

 

[DavidM012]

Maybe a problem if you're a system builder knocking out 50 systems a day you'd question the failure rate but people buying one or two, in the vast majority of cases won't notice a thing. I don't see the concern if they were that bad they wouldn't last a day in the IT industry. I once asked a vendor about statistics on ssd rma/failures but they couldn't answer as they didn't keep any. But gave a good recommend on samsungs. Which give me no trouble.

I think it's absurd like worrying about how many would be struck by lightning and I'm not even particularly adamant about it. Buy whatever you fancy, with what features you like, reviews help in determining what overclocks people were trying but due to silicon lottery and a few other details. much info is a bit ropey.

There are some awful reviews of amd boards where they turned on xmp and it didn't post the board but they were actually using intel compatible dimms if you looked at the qvl.

So there is more of a case of take grumbles with a pinch of salt. I can show you the exact review.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASRock/AB350M_Pro4/13.html

Make sure you buy qvl dimms for it or it won't post if you switch on xmp. User error, that's more of something. Not to open a vein about.

 

[Riddlich]

Update: Thanks for all the reply, I'm going to probably wait a few month for the next ryzen generation 3000 and maybe get a different motherboard but it's going probably get a GIGABYTE motherboard because it's seem like a safer option and I think it going to look cooler in my computer.

I understand little more about motherboard now and I should write if I was going to overclock or not and I'm not going to do it if I not feel like I need it or I want better GHz from the cpu then I'm probably going to do a small overclock.

I wonder if u guys have a recommended motherboard (around 175$ or less) for the upcoming ryzen 3000? otherwise I'm going wait and have an eye on on things.

 

[drea.drechsler]

....
I wonder if u guys have a recommended motherboard (around 175$ or less) for the upcoming ryzen 3000? otherwise I'm going wait and have an eye on on things.

If you have a $175 budget for a motherboard (which is pretty good in the AM4 world) then I'd look at X470 before anything B450. But since you're waiting I'd also wait to see what motherboards will be coming out concurrent with the Ryzen 3000 release. There's a lot of talk about an X570 chipset, for instance, which nobody knows much about but you can expect to provide features that will be very interesting.

It will all come into greater clarity the closer we get to release.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Don't buy a motherboard now if you're going to wait on the CPU. AMD will be releasing a new chipset along with the upcoming 3000 series CPUs, and that is supposed to include PCIe 4.0 (Currently we're on 3.0) and possibly some other chipset changes as well. Overall, a much more refined chipset.

AMD Ryzen 3000 Series To Feature Support on X570 Chipset Based AM4 Boards - Allegedely The First Platform To Support PCIe 4.0, Launching at Computex 2019

AMD's upcoming X570 chipset for the mainstream Ryzen 3000 series processors which use the 7nm Zen 2 core has leaked out.

wccftech.com

 

[Karadjgne]

Part of the issue is the numbers. When Ryzen first dropped, the only motherboard that really didn't have issues getting 3200 was the Tomahawk, so that was the defacto choice of mobo's for many ppl. And as anyone knows, once something is popular, it takes on a sales life of its own, same as Arctic Silver 5, whether it's a good product or not.

So comparatively, there's going to be quite a large population of Tomahawk owners, compared to other MSI boards, which means the amount of posts for Tomahawk boards issues is going to be significantly higher than for others.

Doesn't make the Tomahawk any better or worse than others, just means it has a much larger pool of owners to complain from.

 

[Darkbreeze]

My issue is not with the Tomahawk board, specifically. It's with ANY of the budget boards, regardless of chipset, sold by MSI. As I said, clearly the sample size I see does not account universally for their products, but the fact that I see it and a LOT of others have responded in kind, sort of does. They got better for a while there. I didn't really see many problems on most of their 100 series boards, but since the release of the 200 series boards and Ryzen, those indicators of a QA issue have been somewhat apparent in the number of threads I've seen here, and on my bench, in terms of MSI in general especially on their lower priced models.

Honestly I don't understand it myself because we don't see this with their graphics cards or most of their other products EXCEPT maybe their gaming laptops. I see a lot of cooling related failures on those.

For ME, I see MORE RMAs being necessary and problems in general, HERE, on MSI boards, than any other brand by far.

 

[DavidM012]

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/msi-b450-tomahawk-or-b450-gaming-plus.3363274/

So far the guy has made a decision based on nothing but hearsay NOT the actual specifications of the board. As have these guys in the thread above.

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B350-TOMAHAWK/Specification

Even the b350 has usb 3.1 but they decided it didn't.

Then they start waffling about the power phases. Had that discussion before and found the list of actual power phases on the board

They says in the above thread 'I think, you're focusing a little too much on VRM's rather than a good mobo, or at least one that's in stock '? Weird phrase. followed with

'More power phases is a good thing because then the load on each power phase is reduced. That means they generate less heat, and that's great because heat makes them less efficient and stable. And in the worst case scenario, the VRM (Voltage Regulator Module, with X number of power phases) can even overheat and be damaged.'

So don't worry about it, the vrms are only the most technically important area of the board when over-clocking.

Then the overclockers review:

If someone gave me a free 450 chipset board I'd overclock it and game on it all day long

Although the gigabyte has one extra power phase 2 high side mosfets per inductor on the tomahawk means the vrm area is cooler under the same load compared to the gigabyte.

Then the amazon customer review:

quote review

'MSI B450 TOMAHAWK Socket AM4 ATX Motherboard.
Got this board after my Gigabyte B450M DS3H failed to run my Ryzen 5 2600 at normal stock speeds without the VRM getting so hot it downclocked the CPU ... with this board all my problems have gone the VRM cooling on this board is good and the BIOS is light years ahead of the Gigabyte bios.
The standard 4 pin RGB header means you can sync your fans and strips with the included software.
so far I've not found any downsides to buying this board over any other B450 board.'

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MSI-B450-T...&qid=1549822556&sr=1-1&keywords=b450+tomahawk

? Decision making process ? You're worrying too much about the vrms don't buy the tomahawk! Either way you don't have to take forum discussions as gospel.

 

[Darkbreeze]

That, is absolutely not true in all cases. You're assuming all 4+2 or all 8+2, or whatever, configurations are equal. They are not. I'm definitely not saying that the components used to complete the VRM configuration on that, or any, given Gigabyte board are of higher quality than on that, or any, MSI motherboard, but to simply say that because it has X power phase it is more capable and is "cooler under the same load" is a crock.

The quality of the components is paramount. And the components used on any given motherboard, whether within the same chipset or not, are not the same, or may not be the same anyhow. These cheaper boards definitely tend to not use the same high quality capacitors and chokes as higher end boards use, and even among boards that are generally within the same price range there may be significant differences in the quality of those components even if on paper the VRM configuration looks to be identical. 4+2(3) may NOT offer the same capabilities as another 4+2(3) board using higher quality parts.

What I do see is you quoting OTHER peoples opinions based on the reviews they've done, which is fine, but then providing YOUR opinion as if having read that makes yours a fact while anybody else's, even those who build 30-50 systems a year on average, according to you, is simply hearsay or fake gospel. It's neither. It's simply another opinion based on experience. In my case, about 30 years worth. But I'm only ONE opinion. Ask around to any of the veteran members and I'd bet most of them will offer you a similar opinion if you ask enough of them.

 

[DavidM012]

It says precisely on the overclockers forum discussion that the 2 high side mosfets per inductor bear the thermal load and they also show a video where they got to 4.2ghz at 1.4v on the tomahawk as opposed to 1.44 on the asus b gaming.

If you want to call it bunk that's up to you. If you have the two boards with a thermal probe on it, you'd be entitled to.

They said the vrms were running 85c on the tomahawk and 120c on the auros under the same load.

It also says the cheaper components on the b450's aren't the same as on the x470 boards. Which also have more power phases.

I don't see what I said that alters any of that info, all I said was, 'don't worry about the vrms it's only important for overclocking' because they said 'you're worrying too much about the vrms'.

Ok so worrying about the vrms doesn't alter the specs of the board. It's not important but for whatever reason, the x470 has got better quality components and more power phases than the b450.

Nobody has got 30 years experience of building b450 systems they've only been around since the launch of ryzen and since you don't like the tomahawk because you heard a few grumbles you don't have any experience building systems with them either.

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_b450_tomahawk_review,19.html

Since all these other reviews are all bunk and there's no reliable information about it,

https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/msi-b450-tomahawk-motherboard-review/page/0/8

especially this one that says it's ok fine great let's switch to Intel. and the veteran journalists can swing as well.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Some days, it sucks that I'm a moderator or care about not stepping over the line. 'Nuff said. You and your Sharkoon PSU have a great day.

 

[DavidM012]

Whatever. My Sharkoon works fine for 3 years with a 4.8ghz overclock. There nothing wrong in seeing if it would work. It still works but I switched it out for an 850w since I'm having a go at an 8350 which is also fine at 4.7ghz on an aerocool.

I might try the simple 'stick a gpu in it' approach or I might upgrade with a tomahawk. In any case it is fine, the pc works, has worked, I'm not worried it's only light usage really so ok I haven't played all the games on hi settings but I haven't splashed a fortune on it either. Far as I see it there are plenty of open options for upgrades. That I'm still thinking about.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Cool.

 

[Rogue Leader]

Whatever. My Sharkoon works fine for 3 years with a 4.8ghz overclock. There nothing wrong in seeing if it would work. It still works but I switched it out for an 850w since I'm having a go at an 8350 which is also fine at 4.7ghz on an aerocool.

And I played in traffic as a kid and never got hit by a car, doesn't mean that playing in traffic is a good idea. Take look through the top PSU reviewers, you won't find a single once calling a Sharkoon anything but a doorstop. But 1 of 1 anecdotal evidence trumps that right?

The problem with this discussion here is Darkbreeze is simply (and he pointed this out himself) relating his and our (collectively) personal experience with budget MSI boards, and specifically the Tomahawk as well. Theres no way every one out of the factory is a dud, and actually one of our moderators is even using one no problem at all. However as moderators we like to give the best and safest advice, however anecdotal it may be.

People are quick to dismiss anecdotal evidence, however in the face of the volume of experience (not 1 of 1) that caused that opinion, whats the term... maybe modify it a bit..... when theres smoke there may be fire? He and I are not saying fire for sure, but we are saying play the odds to your favor. MSI has released some AWFUL low end boards (look at any Krait motherboard for example) to the point that I don't trust them either, despite any good reviews. You can give me all the good reviews you want, I'd rather play the odds based on personal experience.

Now I think we have derailed this thread enough. The OP has decided to go Gigabyte anyway.