[SOLVED] Need advice on air CPU cooler

[Avik Basu]

I need to buy a new cooler for my CPU and this is my first time so I have a couple of questions about it.

One of the coolers I'm looking at is the Hyper 212 Black Edition but there seem to be two of those with a huge price difference. The basic Black one costs double the price of the RGB black one whereas both of them have the same RPM but the RGB one comes with more fins. Doesn't that make the RGB one slightly better since I've heard more fins mean better cooling? Why does the basic one cost double? Is the RGB one inferior somehow?

Of course, that's the costlier option. The other cooler I'm looking at is the Antec A400 for a budget solution. But I can't find any reviews on it. So I want to ask how good of a performer is it? And how much of a performance difference is there between it and the Hyper 212 Black? I know that it has a slightly lower RPM than the Black. I'm sure, looking at the price of the Black, it is a better performer than the A400. But can the A400 be used as a good budget cooler to avoid the costlier road?

To give an understanding of my situation, my room gets very hot for most of the year but especially in summer. It can easily reach 34C. Around winter and spring, the CPU would idle at 43C-48C and get as hot as 68C-73C. Now it idles at 53C-58C and can get as hot as 75C-80C. Although I have two intake fans I doubt the air that they are blowing in is much cooler than what the two exhausts are blowing out.
I just started playing PUBG and I have to play at low settings with the FPS capped at 30 to keep the temperature at around 69C-72C. But there are spikes in when the matches are loading and the temperature touches 80C-84C. Then there are moments after a couple of hours when the temperature goes to 78C-79C for a few seconds while playing a match. And it's not just PUBG but GTA 5 took it over 80C on highest settings and AC Odyssey can take it to 75C-79C on medium settings. My usage is about 3 hours of gaming and an hour or two of basic work per session. I'm not an overclocker and I don't do anything other than gaming that would put stress on my PC.

Also, will either of these two cooler fit my case?

My specs are :-

AMD Ryzen 5 3600 (with stock cooler)
Asus B450-E Gaming motherboard
G.Skill Trident Z 3200MHz 2x8GB RAM
Asus GTX760 DC2 2GB DDR5 GPU
Corsair TX650M 650W PSU
WD Black 1TB HDD
Cooler Master Masterfan MF120R A-RGB 3x1 case fans
Carbide 175R Case with 1x fan.

 

[Phaaze88]

@Avik Basu
The cpu's core frequencies are low: the peak recorded speed is low as well as the speeds for the 3 active cores during the game.
Peak Vcore and average Vcore are low too... It could be from alt-tabbing, but those numbers should be a bit higher than that.

A-XMP/DOCP(for Asus mobos) is not enabled. Ram doesn't run at the rated speeds out of the box, mate. You have to enable that manually.


Did you reinstall Windows after making this upgrade(cpu/mobo/ram)?
Installed the mobo drivers after doing the above?

 

[Avik Basu]

I think I would first see how you do moving the top fan to the front.

I'll give that a try.

@Avik Basu
The cpu's core frequencies are low: the peak recorded speed is low as well as the speeds for the 3 active cores during the game.
Peak Vcore and average Vcore are low too... It could be from alt-tabbing, but those numbers should be a bit higher than that.

A-XMP/DOCP(for Asus mobos) is not enabled. Ram doesn't run at the rated speeds out of the box, mate. You have to enable that manually.


Did you reinstall Windows after making this upgrade(cpu/mobo/ram)?
Installed the mobo drivers after doing the above?

Should I try checking them with Afterburner. If yes then which ones should I mark in it?

How do I enable them? And what would it mean for me? I assume it would make the RAMs faster. But faster memory would mean more heat, won't it?

I did reinstall Windows. Two or three times actually since there was a heating issue in the beginning as well. But that mostly went away when after the last install I separately downloaded and installed the drivers and didn't install the programs that came with the motherboard.

 

[Phaaze88]

Should I try checking them with Afterburner. If yes then which ones should I mark in it?

Wouldn't hurt.
Go into Settings > Monitoring, uncheck everything, then check all the Cpu Clock options and go down and expand the Graph Columns to 3.
Click Apply.

How do I enable them? And what would it mean for me? I assume it would make the RAMs faster. But faster memory would mean more heat, won't it?

1)Go to bios > Ai Tweaker > Ai Overclock Tuner. DOCP, right there.
2)You paid for a 3200mhz ram kit, might as well get what you paid for - plus, Ryzen prefers faster memory.
3)Quite minor compared to the current airflow issue.

 

[Avik Basu]

@geofelt
I tried putting the upper exhaust in the front but it didn't make much difference. The idle temp was better, but I don't know if the 3x fans helped or if it was the weather which has been quite cool due to rain, therefore given the fans a lot of cool air to blow in. But when it came to loads it was pretty much the same. Maybe even worse. PUBG took the temp to touch 90C and spent quite a lot of time in the mid to late 80C. But there were other factors to it I think and not just the lack of the exhaust fan.

I think the front cover is really getting in the way. You can physically feel the difference in how much air the insides are getting with and without the cover.

@Phaaze88
I got the Afterburner readings but how do I show them to you? I have them in video recordings or I can show you screenshots. I turned on the DOCP but I think it made matters worse. The temp is definitely more with it on than with it off. Even AC Odyssey and GTA 5 showed readings over 80C. By the way, how did you know that I had DOCP turned off? Was it this section?...

 

[Phaaze88]

@Avik Basu
Take screenshots and post through imgur.com

That, and the primary timings was how I knew. Ram is dual data rate(DDR): 1067 x 2 = 2134mhz

 

[geofelt]

Without changing out the case, the only thing you can do is to get more air into the case like you get with the covers off.
Noctua makes some good 140mm 3000rpm fans. A pair will move a LOT of air.
You pay the price in noise.

 

[Karadjgne]

With an fclock of 1200, Op's only using 2400MHz ram anyways. According to RM. Definitely need to get that bumped up so fclock reads 1600 instead. That's somewhere around 20% loss in performance overall.

 

[Avik Basu]

@Avik Basu
Take screenshots and post through imgur.com

That, and the primary timings was how I knew. Ram is dual data rate(DDR): 1067 x 2 = 2134mhz

I'm not sure whether you wanted them in text or graph so I took them in graphs. Kinda hard to see the number so I hope you get all the info you need from them. I'm taking the screenshots of the hottest temp moments. Sometimes they stuck around the number and other times they fell a few degrees.

3x front fans, DOCP on, with cover

3x front fans, DOCP on, without cover

3x front fans, DOCP off, with cover

3x front fans, DOCP off, without cover


I thought so. After turning on DOCP I checked with Ryzen Master and that section was show 1600 for both clocks. But after restarting my PC froze when the motherboard was doing a RAM check. This happened both the times I turned on DOCP and I had to force shut down both times. After it happened the second time, instead of turning it off when my PC booted I opened Ryzen Master and saw that the clocks were showing the same numbers as in the screenshot even though DOCP was turned on.

 

[Avik Basu]

Without changing out the case, the only thing you can do is to get more air into the case like you get with the covers off.
Noctua makes some good 140mm 3000rpm fans. A pair will move a LOT of air.
You pay the price in noise.

Are you talking about 140mm front fans?

 

[Karadjgne]

After you turn on docp, might need to bump up SoC voltage 0.05v or 0.1v. That's the memory controller voltage.

 

[Phaaze88]

@Avik Basu
Yeah, that is kinda hard to see, but you are getting overall higher frequencies when the covers are removed.

Are you talking about 140mm front fans?

They're talking about these monsters: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/ntXfrH,Mb4gXL/
I use these in my chassis, and let me tell you: these are ENTIRELY unnecessary. If the intakes are choked that badly to consider resorting to those things, then you just need a new chassis.

 

[Avik Basu]

After you turn on docp, might need to bump up SoC voltage 0.05v or 0.1v. That's the memory controller voltage.

How do I do that? Searching for SoC I only found these options...

Which one do I change and to what?

 

[Avik Basu]

@Avik Basu
Yeah, that is kinda hard to see, but you are getting overall higher frequencies when the covers are removed.


They're talking about these monsters: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/ntXfrH,Mb4gXL/
I use these in my chassis, and let me tell you: these are ENTIRELY unnecessary. If the intakes are choked that badly to consider resorting to those things, then you just need a new chassis.

Sorry. First time doing it. Didn't know which one would've been better.

They are not only out of my league but not available in my country. At least not the 3000RPM ones. And two of the 2000RPM ones more or less would be the same price as the Noctua air cooler @geofelt mentioned before. When you say they are unnecessary do you mean unnecessary for me since with the closed front panel even they wouldn't help much?

Changing the chassis isn't an option. Now unless air coolers can do their work without a good amount of fresh air coming in that would leave me with only the AIO option.

I saw a couple of reviews about the case before choosing it. They said it was a good case. Why would they even make a case that would choke a system like this? Surely even with liquid cooling, you need a good supply of air.

 

[Phaaze88]

When you say they are unnecessary do you mean unnecessary for me since with the closed front panel even they wouldn't help much?

No, not that - they'd certainly help, but they are unnecessary due to how LOUD they can get.
At the same speeds, they produce similar levels of noise compared to the regular Noctua fans, albeit with a different pitch.
I have a collection of NF-A14 IPPC 3000 and NF-F12 IPPC 3000, as well as NF-A14 and NF-A12x25, so that's how I know.

Changing the chassis isn't an option. Now unless air coolers can do their work without a good amount of fresh air coming in that would leave me with only the AIO option.

Well, I appear to be the only one against you getting a Hyper 212, but that was on the grounds of it not being enough to lower thermals and account for the higher boost clocks created from that extra thermal headroom.
The majority who appear to be for you getting the Hyper 212 has overruled my vote...
Gotta make the best of what you got then.

I saw a couple of reviews about the case before choosing it. They said it was a good case. Why would they even make a case that would choke a system like this? Surely even with liquid cooling, you need a good supply of air.

Because those styles are popular, and they sell. The user merely makes a compromise in overall cooling performance. They're not going to be on the level of models with open mesh panels.
There are some thermally ok chassis, like NZXT's H500, but none of them are top tier in that aspect. The 175R should be ok too, but also not exceptional.

 

[Avik Basu]

Well, I appear to be the only one against you getting a Hyper 212, but that was on the grounds of it not being enough to lower thermals and account for the higher boost clocks created from that extra thermal headroom.
The majority who appear to be for you getting the Hyper 212 has overruled my vote...
Gotta make the best of what you got then.

You have made a convincing case for AIO thermals yourself. I even saw a video to back you up. I would personally prefer a clean look of an AIO instead of an air cooling brick in the middle of my case. But AIOs have more ways of failing than an air cooler and that's what makes me nervous. They also have a limited lifespan. Even their liquid needs to be refilled after a few years. I don't even know if the liquids are available here. I'm honestly two-minded here.

In a different update, I switched my front fans from the outside of the case to the inside when I noticed that there isn't a lot of space between the cover and the fans. And I have been getting good temp in idle (around 40C) to low load work (45C-50C). When I say good I mean relatively better than the 55C-60C in idle before. Of course, I'm not sure if switching the fans helped or if it was the weather that supplied cooler air than yesterday to feed to the fans. But I'm still getting 80C-85C in PUBG. Even at 30fps it reaches and stays 80C for some minutes before going down to mid to high 70s, if it goes down at all.

 

[Phaaze88]

You have made a convincing case for AIO thermals yourself. I even saw a video to back you up. I would personally prefer a clean look of an AIO instead of an air cooling brick in the middle of my case. But AIOs have more ways of failing than an air cooler and that's what makes me nervous. They also have a limited lifespan. Even their liquid needs to be refilled after a few years. I don't even know if the liquids are available here. I'm honestly two-minded here.

I can't argue with most of those points - except the refilling part. Most AIOs models in the market weren't intended to be refilled - though I'm not saying you can't do it; there are ways around it.
I know Alphacool, Fractal Design, and Swiftech have some refillable models. Others may also have some.
But even if refilling is done successfully... once the pump breaks - and they will - that's game over. You'd still have to toss it out. Better have an air cooler on hand for when that does happen too.

Even with those shortcomings, I'm still interested in trying one out; just to say I have experience using one, and to see if they're really that bad.

In a different update, I switched my front fans from the outside of the case to the inside when I noticed that there isn't a lot of space between the cover and the fans. And I have been getting good temp in idle (around 40C) to low load work (45C-50C). When I say good I mean relatively better than the 55C-60C in idle before. Of course, I'm not sure if switching the fans helped or if it was the weather that supplied cooler air than yesterday to feed to the fans. But I'm still getting 80C-85C in PUBG. Even at 30fps it reaches and stays 80C for some minutes before going down to mid to high 70s, if it goes down at all.

That actually helped.
Because they were positioned further away from that solid panel, you gave the fans more 'breathing room', and that allowed them to draw in more air.
The reason the load thermals didn't change much have to do with the earlier mentioned boost frequencies, which, if you haven't caught on yet, are temperature sensitive.
The extra air being brought in gave the cpu a little more thermal headroom, so it probably pushed for 20-40mhz more.

 

[Avik Basu]

I can't argue with most of those points - except the refilling part. Most AIOs models in the market weren't intended to be refilled - though I'm not saying you can't do it; there are ways around it.
I know Alphacool, Fractal Design, and Swiftech have some refillable models. Others may also have some.
But even if refilling is done successfully... once the pump breaks - and they will - that's game over. You'd still have to toss it out. Better have an air cooler on hand for when that does happen too.

Even with those shortcomings, I'm still interested in trying one out; just to say I have experience using one, and to see if they're really that bad.

You misunderstand. I don't want to have to refill them. Like I said before I'm not if it's even possible here even if I wanted to do it. Alphacool, Fractal Design, Swiftech are unheard of here. But if any of the ones that are available here don't require refilling until the next time I upgrade my PC I'll be grateful. Also, cleaning it would be a new aspect. I've read there's a risk of the radiator fins (am I saying that right?) getting damaged because they are soft and sensitive.

Knowing that the pump will break is also not comforting. It's not like it'll run its course and slowly die. It could just stop working any day. Either late, after it has run its course or early, maybe due to technical malfunction. How would I even know if it has broken? From what I read there aren't any indicators or warning signs. Wouldn't the CPU immediately overheat? Can I even boot up and troubleshoot to see if the pump died? Can this happen with air coolers? From what I understand, the only thing that can break in an air cooler would be the fans. I don't know if that has the same overheating result as the AIO. But what worries me the most is the liquid leaking while the PC is running.

 

[Phaaze88]

Sorry about that.

A)Cleaning radiators: get the little compressed air cans, take aim... and FIRE!

B)

I've read there's a risk of the radiator fins (am I saying that right?) getting damaged because they are soft and sensitive.

That's news to me. I know you can puncture them if you use the wrong size screws and there's no stopper on the other end of the hole.

C)As for the pump:
-Sometimes it's audible.
-You see high thermals.
-You can also tell by feeling the cpu block, tubing, and radiator. The heat should not be focused in the cpu block, which is a sign of blockage or pump failure.

D)An air cooler can still be cooled by the chassis fans.

E)

I understand, the only thing that can break in an air cooler would be the fans.

A member here has actually had a heatsink heatpipe burst on them... O_O @Karadjgne

F)If you haven't noticed by now, AIOs are not cost effective compared to air coolers, except for the really high power cpus and gpus.
Instead, they are a cost effective alternative to custom liquid cooling.

G)Leaks are usually caused by user error more so than a flaw in manufacturer design.

 

[Karadjgne]

Knowing that the pump will break is also not comforting. It's not like it'll run its course and slowly die. It could just stop working any day. Either late, after it has run its course or early, maybe due to technical malfunction.

Everything wears out in time. Capacitors swell on motherboards, VRM's and fans in gpus, hdds are only usable for @ 5 years or so, it's the nature of anything electronic or mechanical, even humans.

From what I read there aren't any indicators or warning signs. Wouldn't the CPU immediately overheat?

Yes and no. It would take catastrophic failure, such as the top of the pump blowing off for such instant cpu overheat. Otherwise it's a pretty regular climb upto tjunction, you'd get serious slowdowns as the cpu tried to contain the heat, and finally trigger shutdown. It's a safety procedure built into the pc, you generally have several minutes for anything like that happening.

Can this happen with air coolers?

Yes. Heatpipes are not solid. They are in fact vapor chambers filled with fluid. The copper base heats the vapor which travels away from the base, forcing fluid back to the base by displacement. What you see on the top of any aftermarket cooler with heatpipes is the welded top of the pipes. Which is supposed to seal in the vapor/liquid. It's not unknown for them to leak. It's also not unknown for the oversized massive heatsinks like the NH-D15 or beQuiet Darkrock Pro4 to warp or even break a motherboard, especially in high humidity areas.

From what I understand, the only thing that can break in an air cooler would be the fans.

Not quite true. Fins can seperate from the heatsink, rendering that entire fin useless, the heatpipes can leak under pressure if that solder weld isn't perfect, bases can be warped, heatpipes can seperate from the base. I've had all those happen to clients pc's, brand new Noctua with a busted, leaky heatpipe weld. Brand new Phanteks with a warped base. Brand new Raijintek that was a real pain to install lost half its finstack welds on one side.

Everything made by man or machine has a failure rate. It's unavoidable, you are going to have at least one bad apple every now and then. The issue with aios or liquid cooling in general is people are scared of electricity. Totally. And then you throw in water into a pc with electricity.

If Corsair sold one million units last year alone, you might have a 0.1% failure rate. Sounds like a tiny amount, but it's still 10k unhappy people. Out of that maybe 10% are pure leaks, not pump or fan or rgb failure. That's 1000 really unhappy people. And 1 will have catastrophic failure and be so unhappy he'll make a video, that goes virul, blasting the aio as a huge and costly waste. Which is seen by 10 million viewers who have an interest in pc parts and toys. Who then visit forums like this one, and when someone asks, dutifully report that you absolutely shouldn't buy an aio because they breakdown or leak and ruin your entire pc.

So by that logic, you shouldn't buy a psu because they will burn down your house (true fact).
You should never touch the motherboard or any component inside the pc because static electricity will destroy sensitive stuff.....

Unless it's a review by a verified professional, you'll find most stuff on the net is only true from a certain perspective, like there's never any mention of the 99.9% or 990,000 people who are totally happy with their aio.

And yes, I repaired a pc where a old style plastic hose blew (20ish years ago). Catastrophic failure for sure. Corsair replaced everything except the case and paid my wages for the rebuild. You won't get that kind of warranty from any aircooler company.

 

[Avik Basu]

Cleaning radiators: get the little compressed air cans, take aim... and FIRE!

No air cans here. Because blowers of vacuum cleaners are a big no no I use a lens cleaning rubber air blower. Not as effective as an air can but better and easier than blowing out air with my mouth.

Yes. Heatpipes are not solid. They are in fact vapor chambers filled with fluid. The copper base heats the vapor which travels away from the base, forcing fluid back to the base by displacement. What you see on the top of any aftermarket cooler with heatpipes is the welded top of the pipes. Which is supposed to seal in the vapor/liquid. It's not unknown for them to leak. It's also not unknown for the oversized massive heatsinks like the NH-D15 or beQuiet Darkrock Pro4 to warp or even break a motherboard, especially in high humidity areas.

I had no idea. Thanks for all the info. It was educational.

Ok, so I have narrowed down to 3 top contenders. The first one is the Corsair H100i Pro RGB. There's also the H100i Pro RGB XT. I'm guessing they are both the same with the latter having a black CPU block with more RGB functions. There isn't a lot of info on the former. Doing a Google search every result is about the latter. Even Corsair's own product page has lesser information on the Pro RGB than the XT. Not inadequate but still lesser information. They say how the XT has black sleeved low permeating rubber tube. But no such info about the Pro RGB. But they both have 2400RPM fans. I know at full speed they'll be loud but I can't say if that will bother me. I have plenty of loud noises from my surroundings and I have a ceiling fan that I can hear even with my headphones on but it doesn't annoy me. I think it's better to have and not need than need and not have. And I like the 5-year warranty.

Then there's the NZXT X52. Costlier than the Corsair ones. 2000RPM fans but a year more warranty. But there's the name trust maybe? They are one of the AIO leaders after all.

And the last one is the Cooler Master Masterliquid ML240R. Cheaper of the three. 2000RPM fans speed and only 2 years warranty. More bling but I can live without it. And I think the 360mm one was mentioned in Tom's Hardware best AIO cooler list. But I'm guessing it's in the list for the 3 fans instead of the 2.

I'm liking the Corsair ones. What do you guys think?

Also, all the tests of these coolers I've seen were used mostly with CPUs like the i7s and the i9s. The Ryzen 5 doesn't get as hot as them, right? If yes then whatever results they showed on the tests would be relatively better for the Ryzen 5, right?

 

[Avik Basu]

@Phaaze88 still with me?

 

[Phaaze88]

@Phaaze88 still with me?

I still have an eye on this thread.
I can chime in a little on those coolers:
You're right, the Ryzen 3600 doesn't get as hot as the i7s and i9s - at least on full load.
All 4 coolers will perform roughly the same with the Ryzen 5 - the difference will be in the fan performance and quality. Remember, you can control the fan speeds, so how loud they can get isn't that big of a deal.
The vendors seldom make their own coolers, but actually source from another manufacturer - they just slap their branding and fans on 'em.

1)Corsair H100i Pro RGB: OEM is Asetek, the fans are ML120 Pros, 5 year warranty, uses iCUE software for pump/fan/RGB control and operation.
2)Corsair H100i Pro RGB XT: OEM is Cool IT, everything else is the same as on the H100i Pro RGB.
3)NZXT X52: OEM is Asetek, the fans are Aer P120s, 6 year warranty, uses CAM software for pump/fan/RGB control and operation.
4)Cooler Master Masterliquid ML240R: Pump is an in-house design, fans are MF120R ARGB, 2 year warranty, and I think their software is still in a beta phase.

IMO: the Corsair and NZXT options are definitely the more attractive of the 4, although I'm not a fan of either's software. I don't think there's a significant difference whether Asetek or Cool IT made the units...
The higher pricing of the X52 isn't really justified either - at least when it shares the same OEM with the H100i Pro RGB... so NZXT is charging more for it's fans + 1 year longer warranty??? No thanks.
Go with the more affordable of the 2 Corsair units.

 

[Avik Basu]

Remember, you can control the fan speeds, so how loud they can get isn't that big of a deal.

I know I can control the speeds. What I meant was it's better to have fans with high RPM right from the start instead of needing it later and having to buy them again.

The higher pricing of the X52 isn't really justified either - at least when it shares the same OEM with the H100i Pro RGB... so NZXT is charging more for it's fans + 1 year longer warranty??? No thanks.
Go with the more affordable of the 2 Corsair units.

I thought the same thing. I ordered the RGB Pro XT and it's gonna take at least a couple of days to be delivered. I'll update again after installing it.

 

[Phaaze88]

I know I can control the speeds. What I meant was it's better to have fans with high RPM right from the start instead of needing it later and having to buy them again.

You can figure that out simply from the fans that come with the cooler. With an AIO, all the math - radiator size, depth, FPI, etc. - has basically been done for you; the vendor has already selected the best fans for the radiator.
There's performance and silence-focused types.
Performance types - the Corsair H100i AIO you bought and the others you were considering.
Silent type - the Corsair H150i Pro, for example.

Take the low rpm fans from the H150i and try to run them on the H100i's rad, and you will find that load thermals are higher, because the fans don't have the muscle to push through this rad's fins.
Vice versa, and you'd find that the high rpm fans do next to nothing for extra cooling performance, because the radiator fins on the H150i already let lots of air through.

Every now and then, there's a user that comes on here or there inquiring about replacing the fans on their AIO. Most of the time it's a performance model, and they want to put some RGB fans on it instead.
But most RGB fans make for poor radiator fans, so the user sacrifices some performance for aesthetics.

Or another will complain about fans being too loud, and thus wants something quieter, while still performing well...
AIOs don't really do both well - that's really for custom loops. You either get one or the other; the ones that try to do both end up doing worse than ones that go in either direction.

Ahh, I got carried away again! The top paragraph has your answer.

 

[Karadjgne]

I never ran my nzxt stock fans on my nzxt Kraken X61 above 700rpm, except for the odd stress test, and they still didn't breach 900rpm. With as low an output as the Ryzens generally have, you'll never have reason to ever see above 1300-1400 rpm at best. Just set any control software/bios for silent mode and forget the aio even exists.

At 4.9GHz (that's a 1GHz OC) on my i7-3770K, pushing p95 small fft torture test, I got 72°C with fans on silent mode at 900rpm. Performance mode tripled to noise at 1300rpm, and dropped the cpu temp 3°C. No thanks. I'll take good performance and dead silent during normal operations/gaming any day.

A few degrees isn't going to hurt, especially at higher performance loads and top end. All you need is something that works well, doesn't have to be maximum performance all the time, at gaming levels there's really little difference.