Need advice on the upgrade debate (to switch from LGA775 or not to switch).

[komikozovich]

I would appreciate if you read a bit of this first.

Good day, gentlemen.

I'm about to upgrade my gaming rig, I've been delaying it as much as I could until I get some sort of budget.

If you didn't read the topic from above, I was thinking about reviving my lga775 (ASUS P5Q SE PLUS) with x5470 xeon. But I'm now curious if I could, given the budget, upgrade to perhaps lga1155?

Let's say I'm about to score a good deal on GTX 1050 Ti. I planned to finish the upgrade by purchasing x5470 + Cooling + I am about to score another good deal on DDR2 1066Mhz 8GB of RAM.

Video and cooling aside, the sum I am about to spend on Xeon and that RAM would be around 130$.

I wonder if that money, maybe around ~150$ could be spent for a better upgrade? As in Motherboard + CPU + RAM (8GB too, don't think I need more). I don't mind used parts as long as they are available and working, heh.

What are your ideas? Should I stay with LGA775 for a couple of years and then just get a normal upgrade or not?

Regards,
Komi

 

[william p]

SetFSB didn't unlock Voltage, or multiplier. TS does Voltage and multi, but not fsb. I'll ask the developer what results he's seen on newer than Nehalem. They're listed as supported CPUs but the original intent of TS was undervolting laptops. Overclocking is a by product on unlocked CPUs. So for now it is an unknown, at least to me also.
LMAO these overclocks take about 10 minutes. Install unlocked Xeon, raise Voltage, and select multiplier. Test your cooling mods. I picked up a Dell XPS 420 for $50, dropped in a QX9650 and had 4.067GHz immediately. 12x333fsb + a tweak from Setfsb just to break 4GHz, and see if it worked. Never touched the BIOS.
The CPU scores at userbench are 40% for fast LGA775, 57% for 4GHz LGA775, and 84% for OC 6 core Xeons. i7-7700K=100%

 

[Karadjgne]

The only thing I'm not fond of about user bench scores is their lack of a complete picture. Sure you get rated speeds etc etc, but that's not everything. Just the differences with the additional instruction sets on newer cpus can make a huge difference. Apart from IPC differences, many games and other software use the more advanced instructions to much better benefits, it was a big difference just between 1st gen Sandy's and Ivy-Bridge. At equitable clocks Ivy was killing the old Sandy's in fps across the board. And that's not discounting the increased Lram. You might be able to get 4GHz from an old 771/775 but it's not going to hang with a stock 4460 in anything but a benchmark like Sisoft.

 

[william p]

I'm not suggesting that LGA771/775 will perform with newer stuff. I just used that as an example of how simple TS overclocking is. The value of userbench is you can look at thousands of examples to see which systems support which CPUs, and get a relative idea what the OC is worth if you can find one. You can detect things like 95W CPU limits, or Xeon compatability. It's not detailed, but you can get the big picture, and compare whole systems. You can see that a Q6600 with a pinmod to 3GHz is nowhere near as fast as a stock Q9550. userbench rates the OC i5 4460 at 72%, an OC LGA775 is 57%, huge difference. The LGA 1366 OC W3680 at 84% isn't that far off from the OC 2550K 89%.
http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-4460-vs-Intel-Xeon-W3680/2310vsm12335
Any way the concept behind TS overclocking is C states on steroids. Windows can slow your computer down from full speed by changing multiplier and Voltage when resting. With an unlocked CPU you just redefine what full speed, and full Voltage are. It all happens in Windows (or maybe from Windows).
The ability to use surplus OEM computers, and little known unlocked Xeons can provide some budget performance options.
If my suggestions were the same as everyone else's I wouldn't bother making them.

 

[komikozovich]

Well, I was hit by some terrible luck, that guy sold the haswell combo while I was experiencing complications here and there.

I have some more offers with i5-4460 combos like that one, but a li'l bit higher in price. Well, I suppose the discussion is over. Thanks everyone for your answers, I have an idea what to look for now.

UPD: Ok,one last question. So I have a choice between two i5 combos for the same price (170$):

1. i5 2500k + MSI ZH77A-G43 + 8GB Crucial + Glacial Tech Igloo H46 (Cooler)
2. i5 4460 + GIGABYTE B85-D3 + 8GB of not stated RAM

With that cooler and Mobo i5 2500k can be overclocked. But i5 4460 is newer. Provided I plan to pair it with gtx1050ti, play, record/edit videos and occasionally stream, what would be the best choice?

Can't decide here.

 

[Karadjgne]

I5 4460. The 2500k is missing instructions that newer games use to better advantage. While you can OC the 2500k, it's still limited. There's also almost 0 support for z77 mobo's now, there's been 1 update critical for windows 10ce since October of 2013. I have a msi z77.

You aren't doing anything cpu critical, and the pc is based on a 1050ti gpu, so no miricles on gaming necessary. That Haswell will do more, better.

On the plus side, you'll have a B85 mobo. While not an overclocking mobo, it's still lga1150, meaning you can still move up a long way in cpu power, i5-4690k, i7-4790k, Xeon 1270v3 etc. That older z77 is more limited i5-3570k, i7-3770K, Xeon 1270v2.

 

[komikozovich]

I5 4460. The 2500k is missing instructions that newer games use to better advantage. While you can OC the 2500k, it's still limited. There's also almost 0 support for z77 mobo's now, there's been 1 update critical for windows 10ce since October of 2013. I have a msi z77.

You aren't doing anything cpu critical, and the pc is based on a 1050ti gpu, so no miricles on gaming necessary. That Haswell will do more, better.

On the plus side, you'll have a B85 mobo. While not an overclocking mobo, it's still lga1150, meaning you can still move up a long way in cpu power, i5-4690k, i7-4790k, Xeon 1270v3 etc. That older z77 is more limited i5-3570k, i7-3770K, Xeon 1270v2.

Thank you a lot for the detailed response and insight. Much appreciated.

My mind is set then, and I'll be going. Cheers!

 

[k1114]

I still run my 2500k/z68 and oc it compares to stock skylake. The instruction sets that is doesn't have are irrelevant to gaming but if you have any proof of the performance affect, feel free to share. Support isn't an issue.

The price of upgrading to an i7 on 1150 may drop enough in the future but by then you might be looking at a new platform again. $100+ for the cpu alone is not worth it and right now I still see the best deal around $170. 2600k oc would be cheaper and still outperform a stock haswell i7.

 

[Karadjgne]

I7 3770k or i7 4790k both going for @$200 average on ebay used, over $400 new, so definitely not worth going new i7. As is the 4460 and 2500k at stock settings both compare almost equally, so with a decent OC, yes the 2500k stands a good chance of a few extra fps, much depends on the games cpu usage. But the upgrade path is quite limited for lga1155, it's simply not worth any upgrade short of an i7, even the i5 3570k would only see the sandy-ivy performance increase, but a Sandy to refresh increase is considerable. Maybe gaming doesn't see all that much, but everything else does.

 

[k1114]

They're both dead sockets with limited upgrades so you can't single out 1155. A 3770k/2600k is going to outperform a 4770/stock haswell and either upgrade option is probably never going to be worthwhile because cost so what's most likely going to happen is sticking with the i5 until a new platform again. The 2500k is still the better performer vs 4460. 1155 wins in any case, gaming and everything else.

 

[komikozovich]

They're both dead sockets with limited upgrades so you can't single out 1155. A 3770k/2600k is going to outperform a 4770/stock haswell and either upgrade option is probably never going to be worthwhile because cost so what's most likely going to happen is sticking with the i5 until a new platform again. The 2500k is still the better performer vs 4460. 1155 wins in any case, gaming and everything else.

Why did you say that Haswell was the better deal a bunch of posts ago? I mentioned i5-2500k and a 1155 socket. o_0

2. Gigabyte GA-H67MA-UD2H- 62$. Its owner also sells 12GB of Kingston DDR3, 3 sticks of 2GB 1333Mhz and one of 4GB 1600Mhz. Asking 36$ for all 4. I could ask for a discount if I were to get both MoBo and RAM, resulting in something around 100$ for all. So far it looks like the best idea.
3. ASUS P8H67-M LX/SI - 44$

I Could i5-2400 for 50$. So if I combine it with my paragraph 2, there go my 150$. What do you say? GA-H67MA-UD2H + i5-2400 + 12GB DDR3 RAM 1333MHz for 150$.

Or I could pay a little more and get i5-2500k for 70$. There's also a deal on that.

UPD3: I found an LGA1150 offer. i5-4460 + MSI H81M-P33 + 8GB (2x4) Hyper-X RAM for around the same price, 160$. Is that a better deal?

The haswell is the best deal. You can't oc on any of these and the newer, the better for intel. Each new architecture is better ipc.

Guess you missed the line about 2500k since you said any of those couldn't be overclocked. Or I didn't express myself properly.

Well, I actually missed that 4460 offer, and then another one. But I found the third one and the seller turned out to live close to my current place, so we're meeting up to test the system and discuss the deal tomorrow.

I don't think I would get that much out of OC'd 2500k anyway. I also think I got too caught up in the whole stuff and forgot that I actually just want my PC to handle 1080p gaming on high settings in 2018 (occasional recording and streaming, and editing of course).

If I'm very lucky, I might even grab 1060 3GB for 220$, used, but with warranty and all. Anyway, too much speculation.

Will most likely update everyone on what I get in the end.

 

[william p]

" I won't believe it til I see it. Maybe bclk oc but that's mostly pointless."
This was reported to me by the developer of TS as a TS overclock of an unlocked Haswell i7-4700MQ using the early microcode.
https://hwbot.org/submission/3091123_0.0_cpu_frequency_core_i7_4700mq_4900_mhz

 

[Karadjgne]

BCLK is 100.08, basically that's a BCLK of 100, mobos never get it that accurate, so the only way to get that multiplier up that high is custom revision on the bios. As that's a mobile cpu, intended for laptops/notebooks and not a standard desktop cpu (totally different socket) it's kind of a moot point. Does make you wonder what kind of Franken-pc laptop that submitter has in order to cool a laptop.

 

[william p]

Very few people believe this is possible so they don't try it. Examples in LGA775 are uncommon, LGA1366 is just being explored due to the arcane Vcore settings required TPL.TDC,TDP. Newer CPUs are almost non existent. It's a laptop because TS was originally a laptop modding program, so most TS users are laptop owners including the developer. Think about it, they're not only overclocking OEMs with this, but laptops too!

 

[k1114]

That's taken out of context. I wasn't saying it's impossible, I even say "it might be possible" but I said no simple software solution can do it. This would need to be able to work on multiple systems with just TS. There are things tech support will say is not possible when it's just not feasible to common people. An example being replacing bga cpus/gpus.

I don't think it's a franken laptop, I would bet it's not a laptop anymore.

 

[Karadjgne]

Pretty sure there was another post somewhere about the feasibility of sticking a hyper212 on a laptop cpu...

 

[william p]

To K1114 you asked for an more modern example and I gave the one I could find.
It does work on multiple systems with just TS, Windows to run it under,and an unlocked CPU. The results vary depending on cooling and the power the VRM can supply for the overclock. It doesn't use the BIOS settings (which on OEMS don't exist), change the FSB, or memory timings. It's worked for me on any computer that I got to boot with an unlocked CPU. Opti745, Dimension E520,XPS420, PrecisionT3400, T3500 workstations. Others have had the same experience. I'm trying to show the OP some of the lesser known options that are out there.

 

[k1114]

None of those are sandy or later. I have no doubt it probably does work on them but I'm repeating myself again and I really don't want to. A single dev story is as reliable as anything else on the internet without confirmation from third parties. Being the only one you could find tells me it's a modded bios, not running ts like other instances. I wouldn't say it's a lesser known option. I know full well of many instances of ocing pre sandy on oem. It's just getting too old that new gens are more worthwhile deals.

 

[william p]

I actually don't know of any sure way to tell a TS OC from a BIOS multiplier overclock from a distance. The ones I know of I either did myself, or knew the person doing it.
I asked for an example of a Sandy Bridge TS overclock, and that's the one that was given. But it's all fake news until you try it yourself.
I've given examples and links to support everything I've said here. I've explained how it works. if you don't want to try it that's your business. But your opinion isn't based on any facts or experience relevant to the subject.

 

[k1114]

Examples and links? Just one so far. You say you did it on your rigs and I believe those, repeatedly. Your facts and experiences are irrelevant to the subject because it's pre-sandy. It might as well be amd but it probably works on amd given they're less locked down. My opinion is it's neither impossible nor possible so I don't see how that's relevant. No proof can be a fact that it's not possible but there's a reason peer review is done and this conversation won't go anywhere til some 3rd party does it. I'll be sure to point anyone I see with an oem pc to ts.

 

[komikozovich]

I've got the i5-4460 and h81m-k, 1600Mhz 8GB Hyperx RAM. Everything is way too fast to be true. Night and day difference.

Too bad I hear a coil whine now. Looks like the tales about Zalman being not good with PSUs seem to be too true.

Got a great Chieftec GDP-650C PSU instead and KFA2 1050ti OC for a great price. The PC is like a rocket now. Will move everything to a different case, max out the coolers and get a decent 1080p monitor.

Thanks everyone for your answers.