New Foveon sensor for digital camcorders

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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:55:23 -0700, "PTRAVEL"
<ptravel88-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Actually, it wouldn't -- it's primary advantage would be size and weight.
>3-chip video cameras offer exceptional color reproduction because dichroic
>prisms split the light into primary colors, each of which is directed to a
>monochrome sensor.

So, you are saying that companies like Panavision, Arri, Kinetta and
Thomson are wrong using a one-chip for their high-end e-Cine camera's?
Interesting :)

cheers

-martin-

--
"Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak."
 
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<mheffels@nessguy.com> wrote in message
news:hu75e09adolsc4lla2rai4d1ga8dmpm78r@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:55:23 -0700, "PTRAVEL"
> <ptravel88-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Actually, it wouldn't -- it's primary advantage would be size and weight.
> >3-chip video cameras offer exceptional color reproduction because
dichroic
> >prisms split the light into primary colors, each of which is directed to
a
> >monochrome sensor.
>
> So, you are saying that companies like Panavision, Arri, Kinetta and
> Thomson are wrong using a one-chip for their high-end e-Cine camera's?
> Interesting :)

I wasn't aware either made digital cameras, nor have I heard of e-Cine.
Regardless, no prosumer-grade camera is single chip.

>
> cheers
>
> -martin-
>
> --
> "Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright
> until you hear them speak."
 
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"PTRAVEL" <ptravel@ruyitang.com> wrote in message
news:x1BEc.79562$i57.22940@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
>
> I wasn't aware either made digital cameras, nor have I heard of e-Cine.
> Regardless, no prosumer-grade camera is single chip.
>
I predict that single chip technology will eventually replace
3 chip technology, in much the same manner that a
single strip of color film has now pretty much replaced
using 3 separate strips of monochrome film when
capturing moving color images.

A single piece of film may not be the best way to
make a movie, but everybody is doing it these days 🙂

David
 
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"print_maker" <print_maker@spamfesthotmail.com> wrote in message news:<uKqEc.1825$IQ4.254@attbi_s02>...
> please link to your sources... or otherwise you are just spouting rumors
>
> "Jorge Prediguez" <jorge@iamgr8.com> wrote in message
> news:d38ab2c0.0406291423.186a8dae@posting.google.com...
> > Foveon is working on a new sensor for video cameras. This will
> > guarantee the best video quality ever. Sigma will be releasing the
> > first video camera with this record breaking technology.

Here's one point for him (you have 0)...

http://www.hanvision.com/
 
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"Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote in message
news:FoDEc.23207$Xn.13743@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> "Bart van der Wolf" <bvdwolf@no.spam> wrote in message
> news:40e2f188$0$6968$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> >
> > "Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote in message
> > news:jaCEc.27890$Av3.21457@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
> > SNIP
> > > Perhaps he's referring to this: http://www.foveon.com/press_x530.html
> > SNIP
> >
> > It's the same sensor used in the Polaroid
> > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
> > and it is 1440 x 1080 pixels.
> >
> > Bart
> >
>
> Hi Bart,
>
> Well, the article that you're included in your post indicates that it is
> indeed a 4.5MP. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
> It even refers back to the article that I posted for more information (?).
> So, I'm a bit confused.

That is exactly what Foveon intended, confusion.
It's a 1440 x 1080 pixel sensor array (RGB sensors).
The output can be interpolated, or not, or sensors can be binned, but it is
still a 1440 x1080 pixel sensor array.

Bart
 
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"Bart van der Wolf" <bvdwolf@no.spam> wrote in message
news:40e33772$0$34762$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
>
> "Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote in message
> news:FoDEc.23207$Xn.13743@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> > "Bart van der Wolf" <bvdwolf@no.spam> wrote in message
> > news:40e2f188$0$6968$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> > >
> > > "Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote in message
> > > news:jaCEc.27890$Av3.21457@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
> > > SNIP
> > > > Perhaps he's referring to this:
http://www.foveon.com/press_x530.html
> > > SNIP
> > >
> > > It's the same sensor used in the Polaroid
> > > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
> > > and it is 1440 x 1080 pixels.
> > >
> > > Bart
> > >
> >
> > Hi Bart,
> >
> > Well, the article that you're included in your post indicates that it is
> > indeed a 4.5MP.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
> > It even refers back to the article that I posted for more information
(?).
> > So, I'm a bit confused.
>
> That is exactly what Foveon intended, confusion.
> It's a 1440 x 1080 pixel sensor array (RGB sensors).
> The output can be interpolated, or not, or sensors can be binned, but it
is
> still a 1440 x1080 pixel sensor array.
>
> Bart
>

Hi Bart,

Ah, now I understand your point. Thanks.

Well, I guess we'll find out for sure how well it performs in short order,
regardless of how it's rated/classified.

Thanks again. 🙂

Hal Lowe
http://hals.vstoremarket.com (HaloweGraphics SuperStore)
http://www.halowe-graphics.com/tinc?key=0TmhZVQ5&formname=web_email
http://www.halowe-graphics.com/music.html (free original MP3 background
audios)
http://1and1.com/?k_id=7391019 (Best website host/great prices)
 
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In article
<d38ab2c0.0406291423.186a8dae@posting.google.com>,
jorge@iamgr8.com says...
> Foveon is working on a new sensor for video cameras. This will
> guarantee the best video quality ever. Sigma will be releasing the
> first video camera with this record breaking technology.
>

This guy is guy named:
George Preddy in disguise.
He causes all kinds of trouble and hypes up Sigma?
foveon

Look at his name: Jorge = George
Preddy in disguise

Search George Preddy under digital photo forums for
more details



--
www.fiveminutesoffame.com
Get your five minutes of FAME
 
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"Five" <Niko@fiveminutesof____.com> wrote in message
news:dZLEc.8054$a24.1232@attbi_s03...
> In article
> <d38ab2c0.0406291423.186a8dae@posting.google.com>,
> jorge@iamgr8.com says...
> > Foveon is working on a new sensor for video cameras. This will
> > guarantee the best video quality ever. Sigma will be releasing the
> > first video camera with this record breaking technology.
> >
>
> This guy is guy named:
> George Preddy in disguise.
> He causes all kinds of trouble and hypes up Sigma?
> foveon
>
> Look at his name: Jorge = George
> Preddy in disguise
>
> Search George Preddy under digital photo forums for
> more details

Assuming you actually give a fat flying rip.
 
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In article
<1067e702.0406300259.7f53c7ba@posting.google.com>,
georgette_preddy@yahoo.com says...
> "PTRAVEL" <ptravel88-usenet@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2keaauF1gc8lU1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
> > A Foven-based camcorder might be an improvement, possibly even a dramatic
> > improvement, over single-CCD camcorders, assuming the sensor was of
> > sufficient size. No Foveon-based camcorder will produce results equivalent
> > to a good 3-CCD prosumer unit, e.g. VX2000, GL2 or XL1, absent significant
> > improvements in the underlying technology.
>
> The new Foveon P&S due out soon is rumored to have better video
> quality than any consumer video device, and rivlas 3 chip pro designs.
> Not a bad deal for a $300 pocket P&S. It is also rumor to be able to
> capture full size 4.5MP still shots while it is shooting video.
>

troll.....search george preddy


--
www.fiveminutesoffame.com
Get your five minutes of FAME
 
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On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:31:41 GMT, "PTRAVEL" <ptravel@ruyitang.com>
wrote:

>> So, you are saying that companies like Panavision, Arri, Kinetta and
>> Thomson are wrong using a one-chip for their high-end e-Cine camera's?
>> Interesting :)
>
>I wasn't aware either made digital cameras, nor have I heard of e-Cine.

e-Cine is the modern name for electronic image aquisition for cinema.

http://www.kinetta.com/home.php
http://www.dalsa.com/dc/dc.asp
http://www.dalsa.com/dc/documents/Image_Sensor_Architecture_Whitepaper_Digital_Cinema_00218-00_03-70.pdf
http://www.arri.com/news/newsletter/articles/09211103/d20.htm

And sorry, but my memory failed me. The Thomson Viper is 3-CCD

>Regardless, no prosumer-grade camera is single chip.

Regardless, the days of 3-chippers are numbered :)

cheers

-martin-

--
"Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright
until you hear them speak."
 
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<mheffels@nessguy.com> wrote in message
news:h4m6e0p4bopm1ftaq3icdnskab1amne7fp@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:31:41 GMT, "PTRAVEL" <ptravel@ruyitang.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> So, you are saying that companies like Panavision, Arri, Kinetta and
> >> Thomson are wrong using a one-chip for their high-end e-Cine camera's?
> >> Interesting :)
> >
> >I wasn't aware either made digital cameras, nor have I heard of e-Cine.
>
> e-Cine is the modern name for electronic image aquisition for cinema.

I didn't know that. Thanks.

>
> http://www.kinetta.com/home.php
> http://www.dalsa.com/dc/dc.asp
>
http://www.dalsa.com/dc/documents/Image_Sensor_Architecture_Whitepaper_Digital_Cinema_00218-00_03-70.pdf
> http://www.arri.com/news/newsletter/articles/09211103/d20.htm
>
> And sorry, but my memory failed me. The Thomson Viper is 3-CCD

How about the others?

>
> >Regardless, no prosumer-grade camera is single chip.
>
> Regardless, the days of 3-chippers are numbered :)

Well, sure, but this amateur Foveon camera touted by George Preddy hasn't
started the count.

>
> cheers
>
> -martin-
>
> --
> "Light travels faster than sound. That is why some people appear bright
> until you hear them speak."
 
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On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 05:38:13 GMT, "PTRAVEL" <ptravel@ruyitang.com>
wrote:

>I didn't know that. Thanks.

yw

>How about the others?

They are 1-chippers with Bayer-filtering. Most manufacturers in the
serious digital cinematography, are using designs based on 1-chip.
Apparently one of the main problems was Bayer-filter induced
artifacts, which can be taken out by a dose of maths, but required
more horsepower for moving images. This seems to have been solved.
I would say that if 3-CCD's were the way to go, purists like
cinematographers, would never embrace 1-chip designs, and they are
all raving and drooling with the latest offerings.

>Well, sure, but this amateur Foveon camera touted by George Preddy hasn't
>started the count.

Probably not. But it probably won't take long for these technologies
to trickle down to the pro-sumer market. For home-use I don't really
see this happen in this decade.

cheers

-martin-
 
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In message <s0659aat99.fsf@diesel.graphics.cornell.edu>,
westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) wrote:

>jorge@iamgr8.com (Jorge Prediguez) writes:
>
>> Foveon is working on a new sensor for video cameras. This will
>> guarantee the best video quality ever. Sigma will be releasing the
>> first video camera with this record breaking technology.
>
>They don't need a new sensor. <http://www.foveon.com/faq_oem.html>
>question 4: "Can Foveon X3 direct image sensors be used for video?".
>
>This won't be "the best video quality ever", though it would offer
>much of the advantage of a 3-chip camera in a much cheaper package.

The Hue noise inherent in the Foveon sensors is not fine, but rather,
blotchy, and doesn't disappear upon downsizing 4.3MP to 0.3MP.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital,aus.photo,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,alt.comp.periphs.dcameras (More info?)

In message <FoDEc.23207$Xn.13743@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
"Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote:

>Well, the article that you're included in your post indicates that it is
>indeed a 4.5MP. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
>It even refers back to the article that I posted for more information (?).
>So, I'm a bit confused.
>
>I'm not finding the reference supporting your claim. Since I do _try_ to
>follow these things closely, I'd appreciate your pointing out the specific
>reference for me. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I really do want
>to understand your point.

Foveon is trying to hype their products by tripling the number of actual
pixels in their marketing language. What they call a 4.5MP sensor is
actually a 1.5MP sensor that detects three color bands at each pixel.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital,aus.photo,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,alt.comp.periphs.dcameras (More info?)

That is the hype the way I understood it also. This sounds like the
advertising of scam artists and theives.

<JPS@no.komm> wrote in message
news:7v9ge01be7s345a83tg50g0699hqkchuh8@4ax.com...
> In message <FoDEc.23207$Xn.13743@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
> "Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote:
>
> >Well, the article that you're included in your post indicates that it is
> >indeed a 4.5MP.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
> >It even refers back to the article that I posted for more information
(?).
> >So, I'm a bit confused.
> >
> >I'm not finding the reference supporting your claim. Since I do _try_ to
> >follow these things closely, I'd appreciate your pointing out the
specific
> >reference for me. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I really do
want
> >to understand your point.
>
> Foveon is trying to hype their products by tripling the number of actual
> pixels in their marketing language. What they call a 4.5MP sensor is
> actually a 1.5MP sensor that detects three color bands at each pixel.
> --
>
> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
> John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
> ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
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In message <0radnSVI5KVVpXXdRVn-jg@golden.net>,
"Gymmy Bob" <nospamming@bite.me> wrote:

>That is the hype the way I understood it also. This sounds like the
>advertising of scam artists and theives.

It's nothing but connotative bait-and-switch.

Change the meaning of pixel so that it has nothing to do with with
spatial resolution anymore, say you have more pixels, hoping that the
reader thinks it means more spatial resolution. Truly Pathetic.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
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"George Preddy" <george_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e61e09e9.0407050309.44fc873d@posting.google.com...
> JPS@no.komm wrote in message
news:<7v9ge01be7s345a83tg50g0699hqkchuh8@4ax.com>...
SNIP
> > Foveon is trying to hype their products by tripling the number
> > of actual pixels in their marketing language. What they call a
> > 4.5MP sensor is actually a 1.5MP sensor that detects three
> > color bands at each pixel.
>
> As opposed to other manufacturers calling sensing 1 color band,
> sensing a full color pixel.

You are wrong again, as usual.

Other manufacturers don't say they sense full color per sensel. All they say
is that they output an RGB pixel, regardless of the filters used.

Bart
 
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"George Preddy" <george_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e61e09e9.0407050309.39548949@posting.google.com...
SNIP
> As opposed to other manufacturers...

Double posting only makes you double wrong.

Bart
 
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In message <e61e09e9.0407050309.44fc873d@posting.google.com>,
george_preddy@yahoo.com (George Preddy) wrote:

>JPS@no.komm wrote in message news:<7v9ge01be7s345a83tg50g0699hqkchuh8@4ax.com>...
>> In message <FoDEc.23207$Xn.13743@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
>> "Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote:

>> >Well, the article that you're included in your post indicates that it is
>> >indeed a 4.5MP. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
>> >It even refers back to the article that I posted for more information (?).
>> >So, I'm a bit confused.

>> >I'm not finding the reference supporting your claim. Since I do _try_ to
>> >follow these things closely, I'd appreciate your pointing out the specific
>> >reference for me. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I really do want
>> >to understand your point.

>> Foveon is trying to hype their products by tripling the number of actual
>> pixels in their marketing language. What they call a 4.5MP sensor is
>> actually a 1.5MP sensor that detects three color bands at each pixel.

>As opposed to other manufacturers calling sensing 1 color band,
>sensing a full color pixel.

I haven't seen a single manufacturer claim that full color is sensed at
each Bayer pixel.

>The Foveon 5M (thier P&S sensor) is a 6MP chip, not 4.5MP. It outputs
>6M pixels (3000 x 2000) from 1.5M complete RGB triples, which is
>exactly the same as the Canon 10D but with DRAMATICALLY lower noise
>and increased DR.

No, it's not exactly the same at all, and only an ignorant person would
think so, and only a moron would continue to say so after being proven
wrong so many times. There is absolutely no basis for the existence of
3/4 of the pixels when you interpolate foveon output to 4x as many
pixels. The "native resolution" of the Bayer cameras is the number of
sensors.

>Foveon continues to be ridiculously conservative in their MPs rating
>compared to Bayer manufactures who often list 800% interpolatively
>upscaled images as the actual MP count (Fuji)!!

No, they don't; they continue to lie as they exaggerate their pixel
count by 3x, and you continue to lie as you exaggerate by 4x.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
 
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My 1 megapixel fuji doesn't have the noise in low light either. Oh yeah.
Either does my 2 megapixel fuji.


"George Preddy" <george_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e61e09e9.0407050309.39548949@posting.google.com...
> JPS@no.komm wrote in message
news:<7v9ge01be7s345a83tg50g0699hqkchuh8@4ax.com>...
> > In message <FoDEc.23207$Xn.13743@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
> > "Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Well, the article that you're included in your post indicates that it
is
> > >indeed a 4.5MP.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
> > >It even refers back to the article that I posted for more information
(?).
> > >So, I'm a bit confused.
> > >
> > >I'm not finding the reference supporting your claim. Since I do _try_
to
> > >follow these things closely, I'd appreciate your pointing out the
specific
> > >reference for me. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I really do
want
> > >to understand your point.
> >
> > Foveon is trying to hype their products by tripling the number of actual
> > pixels in their marketing language. What they call a 4.5MP sensor is
> > actually a 1.5MP sensor that detects three color bands at each pixel.
>
> As opposed to other manufacturers calling sensing 1 color band,
> sensing a full color pixel.
>
> The Foveon 5M (thier P&S sensor) is a 6MP chip, not 4.5MP. It outputs
> 6M pixels (3000 x 2000) from 1.5M complete RGB triples, which is
> exactly the same as the Canon 10D but with DRAMATICALLY lower noise
> and increased DR.
>
> Foveon continues to be ridiculously conservative in their MPs rating
> compared to Bayer manufactures who often list 800% interpolatively
> upscaled images as the actual MP count (Fuji)!!
 
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In rec.photo.equipment.35mm George Preddy <george_preddy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> JPS@no.komm wrote in message news:<7v9ge01be7s345a83tg50g0699hqkchuh8@4ax.com>...
> > In message <FoDEc.23207$Xn.13743@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>,
> > "Hal" <see_post_for_address@post.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Well, the article that you're included in your post indicates that it is
> > >indeed a 4.5MP. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0402/04020909polaroidx530.asp
> > >It even refers back to the article that I posted for more information (?).
> > >So, I'm a bit confused.
> > >
> > >I'm not finding the reference supporting your claim. Since I do _try_ to
> > >follow these things closely, I'd appreciate your pointing out the specific
> > >reference for me. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I really do want
> > >to understand your point.
> >
> > Foveon is trying to hype their products by tripling the number of actual
> > pixels in their marketing language. What they call a 4.5MP sensor is
> > actually a 1.5MP sensor that detects three color bands at each pixel.
>
> As opposed to other manufacturers calling sensing 1 color band,
> sensing a full color pixel.

Care to name any camera maufcaturer doing that with their SLR cameras?

>
> The Foveon 5M (thier P&S sensor) is a 6MP chip, not 4.5MP. It outputs
> 6M pixels (3000 x 2000) from 1.5M complete RGB triples, which is
> exactly the same as the Canon 10D but with DRAMATICALLY lower noise
> and increased DR.

1.5 M complete RGB triplets are 1.5 megapixels - not 3 and certainly not
6 megapixels.

>
> Foveon continues to be ridiculously conservative in their MPs rating
> compared to Bayer manufactures who often list 800% interpolatively
> upscaled images as the actual MP count (Fuji)!!

Not only bullshit but also completely off-topic (this group is about
35mm film equipment) bullshit.

--
Sander

+++ Out of cheese error +++
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital,aus.photo,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,alt.comp.periphs.dcameras (More info?)

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:34:02 +0000 (UTC), Sander Vesik
<sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote:

>Not only bullshit but also completely off-topic (this group is about
>35mm film equipment) bullshit.

Actually, this went to all these newsgroups:
rec.video.desktop,rec.photo.digital,aus.photo,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,alt.comp.periphs.dcameras
I'm sure you can get your reader to tell you this.

Bill Funk
Change "g" to "a"
 
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