Number of Americans in poverty hits record high

[Gulli]

I totally agree that education is a key component to pulling people out of poverty but not sure that a college education is necessary to reach that goal. I think that a vocational education would be far more beneficial than another BA, BS, or MBA competing for jobs in the marketplace.

Personally, I am an advocate of public Vocational High Schools (I'm talking about public vocational high schools, NOT ITT Tech, Lincoln Tech, or other such for-profit technical diploma mills) and the Adult Education programs they offer. Public Vocational High Schools and Adult Education programs have the excellent potential to teach someone actual skills that can be easily injected into the job market. Regardless of the economy there will always be a certain level of demand for auto mechanics, electricians, carpenters, welders, chefs, nurses aids, HVAC technicians, electronics technicians, etc.

For once we agree on something. College education should be available to all, rich or poor, but it is both impractical to put everyone through college: vocational education is better for some and there are jobs in it.

Given the existing infrastructure of Vocational High Schools, the Adult Education programs are very affordable and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tax payer who would not support their dollars being used to subsidize a welfare recipient's vocational education. Also, a vocational education does not preclude the students ability to continue on to college and receive a "higher education".

Hard pressed to find someone who doesn't want to pay taxes for what is essentially a form of government run charity/welfare? Are you sure you are talking about America here?

 

[chunkymonster]

For once we agree on something. College education should be available to all, rich or poor, but it is both impractical to put everyone through college: vocational education is better for some and there are jobs in it.

Even community colleges offer certification courses that are affordable. The local county college offers certification courses for the PMP, Home Inspector, Paralegal, etc. Again, even with this economy these are skills that will always have a certain level of demand.

Hard pressed to find someone who doesn't want to pay taxes for what is essentially a form of government run charity/welfare? Are you sure you are talking about America here?

See, this is where you lose me. Honestly, I'm not sure if there is a fundamental misunderstanding and/or misperception of what you believe America to be or it's just that you are purposefully being a tosser with these types of comments. I don't know what tweaked your shorts to persist with the ignorant and disdainful comments about America. I'm cool with the notion that you simply need a target for your angst and it just happens you take out your zeal on America. Hey, if you really just don't like America or Americans, it's cool by me, but don't hide behind your words, just say it. Anyway, don't seem so surprised to think that people would not support a tax payer funded government program that enables the able bodied recipients to receive the training and skills that will, ultimately, enable them to get off the dole, and here's the rub, providing that the program is effective at actually getting people off the dole. Additionally, if such a program incorporated public vocational schools and adult education programs it would be a cost effective use of an existing infrastructure with minimal government oversight and no increase in local or state taxes.

 

[knarl]

....you must know how cheap unhealthy food is compared to healthy food.

In the interest of keeping a friendly environment up within these heated threads, I tried to seize on something I agree with you on. And it truly is disgusting that in America you can buy 3 twinkies for a buck, but some powerbars are 2-3 bucks and Ensure six packs can be upwards of 10 🙁

Don't even get me started on the whole Ethanol fiasco, and what that demand for corn does to the prices on TONS of products in your local grocery store that are made from corn/corn syrup. Raises prices both in the store and at the pump as well.

 

[Mathos]

There are always people who take advantage of the system, I don't know how many of them there are, and neither do you or gamer. I did not deny there is abuse, I went against gamer's assertion that there are no poor, except for the homeless. I also pointed out that poor people having appliances is no proof they are not poor. There is this view that you can buy a Mercedes or, as you mentioned, a smartphone off welfare. Well, you cannot. You can steal those items and you can buy a smart phone second hand, alternatively you could sell drugs to raise money, but you cannot afford expensive stuff off welfare, that is a really persistent myth. If someone wants to honestly discuss welfare reform then I'm open to discussing it, when someone just shouts "them lazy bitches be takin my monies!" I won't take them seriously.

Maybe we can relate to each other here: the feeling you and gamer get when seeing a smoking and drinking single mom ask for welfare is the same feeling I get when I see a multimillionaire CEO, just done with hiding his companies profits in Switzerland, ask for tax breaks and subsidies. Why don't I get as worked up about the former as I do about the latter? Well, that single mom may cost "us" $10.000 per year but that CEO costs us $10.000.000.000 a year, the same as a million welfare cheats (I'm not kidding, there really are several companies who trick the government out of billions of tax dollars each year). I thinkl the big fish should be our priority.

Actually Knarl is pretty Accurate with what he said. My guess would be he most likely works at either Wal-Mart of Kroger, I work at Wally world myself. And I see it every day, especially if I end up checking out on the front end. When you see what we have seen working in that industry, and realize that we spend our days grinding away for 8-10 hours or more per day to barely get by. And then, a person who doesn't work or have a desire to do so walks in with all designer clothes new nails, checks out with 200+ in groceries and then hands you a foodstamp card or uses wic or both. Better yet is when you look at the ticket to make sure you got everything and you see that what they spent wasn't even a third of what they had available. Then you realize the medicaid they receive for free, covers more than the insurance you pay for out of your paycheck from work.

 

[Gulli]

Actually Knarl is pretty Accurate with what he said. My guess would be he most likely works at either Wal-Mart of Kroger, I work at Wally world myself. And I see it every day, especially if I end up checking out on the front end. When you see what we have seen working in that industry, and realize that we spend our days grinding away for 8-10 hours or more per day to barely get by. And then, a person who doesn't work or have a desire to do so walks in with all designer clothes new nails, checks out with 200+ in groceries and then hands you a foodstamp card or uses wic or both. Better yet is when you look at the ticket to make sure you got everything and you see that what they spent wasn't even a third of what they had available. Then you realize the medicaid they receive for free, covers more than the insurance you pay for out of your paycheck from work.

If they can spend $200+ on groceries then they have "secondary" (criminal) income.

Pssst, you can buy "designer" clothes for a dollar fifty these days, just cut out the "Made in China" label and paint over the "y" in "Nyke".

 

[DelroyMonjo]

As for secondary income::
Velita P. Downey, 43, of Oklahoma City, and Chris E. Pasley, 26, of Lawton, were arrested Friday after police said they stole about $3,000 worth of merchandise, including clothes, shoes and bedding from J.C. Penney. Mall employees have documented $300,000 worth of items they believe the two women stole going as far back as March.


Read more: http://newsok.com/confessed-shoplifter-says-im-addicted-to-money-and-clothes/article/3597503#ixzz1Y5BBxS9F

There were follow up stories on this. They were taking 'orders' for merchandise from people in their apartment complex.

 

[asven1]

Guilli if you stop posting in his threads it will just be Oldman and Vadge, mumbling amongst themselves about liberals and such.

No matter what you say you cant change their minds. So just stop participating in his threads and maybe after a week or two this forum can go back to normal(Relatively).

no it will not go away until after this election cycle is over. certain money interests pay amateur writers to blog political rhetoric during election cycles. not that using the tomshardware forum is blogging but you get the picture. so until 2012 the spambots will not go away.

 

[knarl]

If they can spend $200+ on groceries then they have "secondary" (criminal) income.

.

And I have no doubt. Not only are they most likely doing drugs (why wouldn't they if they have all day off, no responsibilities, and are already also using tobacco and alcohol? Ya know weed is basically just cigs, right? haha), and perhaps occasionally selling it... but they also play as many scams as they can. Continually popping out children (damn, I wanted to have kids, but me and the ole lady decided to put it off a while til we could better afford it, being responsible people. But wait, I have to help pay support for those that are irresponsible and continue to have children they cannot support on their own income, even though they were on assistance before getting pregnant again? Lopsided world) so that their tax breaks grow each year and their assistance grows as well, purposely not wedding the father of the children and playing games with which addresses they provide on documentation so the father's income won't affect their assistance totals, and... and... we haven't even gotten in to some of the real disgusting stuff yet.

Mathos was spot on... you can tell he's been on the frontline just by what he wrote/predicted. I am in fact with Kroger, perhaps not all that surprising since Wally World and Kroger are basically #1 & #2. Maybe he will know something about the next outrageous scheme I am gonna mention. Recently our Prez had the bright idea of changing our return policy, to a "no questions asked, no receipt needed". He made some comments about how someone doing return scams, or even stealing off our shelves and then returning it with no receipt, shouldn't bother the company in the long-term because someday those people might change their ways and be a potential loyal customer in the future. Yea, I am not kidding. That is not verbatim, but is fairly close to the statement he made.

One tiny problem though. People that have purchased food with EBT/Foodstamps are required to have the return sent directly back to their card, so they cannot potentially defraud the taxpayer by converting Foodstamps into unapproved purchases. With Kroger's new policy, they are basically aiding and abetting... and our customers aren't even subtle about it. Almost every day I will have a customer attempt to checkout with a Kroger gift card (which has a 30min security activation delay if you try to use it at a different register) for tobacco/alcohol items. I will escort the customer to our service desk, and it's then that I find out the customer returned frozen dinners bought with EBT just 5-10mins before the return, and they get caught in a lie since they told the girl they had made the food purchase yesterday and didn't have a receipt. When we then tell them we won't sell them the tobacco/alcohol because that return came from EBT, and they would be defrauding the Foodstamp system, their entire demeanor changes - suddenly they are mad and mean and are quickly hightailing it out of the store.


It's not like Gulli is saying it doesn't happen at all. But I think he severely underestimates the scope of the problem. It takes quite a bit to get me worked up about some rich person, I believe in American principles and if one is ambitious and entrepreneurial, I don't believe others have a right to his/her labor (Of course those that are doing it unethically/criminally should be everyone's focus). I am mostly at peace with my status in life since it sadly matches my ambition level, but the one thing I cannot abide is getting slapped in the face daily by the sheer volume of people that are living on the dole, and living the high life (perhaps high in more ways than one??).

I think I could shock Gulli by uploading and linking some pics of the stuff we see at work. I know it's not really the right thing to do, but oftentimes the employees will get so disgusted by things we see that we'll pull out our phones and snap a quick photo. I have pics of various $2000-3000 foodstamp balances showing on receipt (mind you this is AFTER they've already done a full cart of shopping)... I even have a pic right now on my phone of the main terminal of our self-checkout screen that controls 4 uscan registers, showing Foodstamps being used at all four registers at the same time. This kinda stuff isn't rare, it's effing commonplace and daily.

 

[knarl]

As for secondary income::
Velita P. Downey, 43, of Oklahoma City, and Chris E. Pasley, 26, of Lawton, were arrested Friday after police said they stole about $3,000 worth of merchandise, including clothes, shoes and bedding from J.C. Penney. Mall employees have documented $300,000 worth of items they believe the two women stole going as far back as March.


Read more: http://newsok.com/confessed-shoplifter-says-im-addicted-to-money-and-clothes/article/3597503#ixzz1Y5BBxS9F

There were follow up stories on this. They were taking 'orders' for merchandise from people in their apartment complex.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/14/20110914phoenix-area-shoplifting-ring-abrk.html

6 years they were in operation, tens of thousands stolen yet they can only estimate totals based on what was found unsold, and length of the group's activities.

"Eleven people were arrested and face a 53-count Maricopa County grand jury indictment. Authorities are still searching for five other suspects.
Nearly $86,000 in stolen items and 76 victims have been identified, said Phoenix police Sgt. Aimee Smith."

"Stolen goods and money remain unaccounted for because most of the stolen items were sold across the United States or in Mexico, Smith said."







p.s. Another: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/07/20110907mesa-walmart-theft-abrk.html
It seems I see a new one on the local news every day. Most don't get caught sadly, we get shoplifted daily and between policies and liability, no one approaches them and it has to be literally a 4-5 day in a row consistent repeat offender before Police will investigate. I know Police often have way more important matters at hand, but at the same time, you know damn well Corporations aren't taking those as profit losses, they will pass it onto consumers with higher prices.

 

[DelroyMonjo]

This is just 2 crooks out of how many?

Two Oklahoma City convenience store owners have been sentenced to two years in federal prison for food stamp fraud.

Muluneh Zeleke, 55, of Oklahoma City, also was ordered to pay $966,416 in restitution to the U.S. Agriculture Department. He is the owner of Z&Z Convenience Store at 2445 Martin Luther King Ave.

He pleaded guilty in February.
The other convenience story owner, Muhammad Zahid, 28, of Edmond, was sentenced last week. Zahid was ordered to pay $326,307 in restitution.

Read more: http://newsok.com/two-oklahoma-city-convenience-store-owners-sentenced-on-food-stamp-fraud/article/3599390#ixzz1Y5kDx2pZ

Read more: http://newsok.com/two-oklahoma-city-convenience-store-owners-sentenced-on-food-stamp-fraud/article/3599390#ixzz1Y5jvi8Db

 

[Reynod]

I totally agree that education is a key component to pulling people out of poverty but not sure that a college education is necessary to reach that goal. I think that a vocational education would be far more beneficial than another BA, BS, or MBA competing for jobs in the marketplace.

Personally, I am an advocate of public Vocational High Schools (I'm talking about public vocational high schools, NOT ITT Tech, Lincoln Tech, or other such for-profit technical diploma mills) and the Adult Education programs they offer. Public Vocational High Schools and Adult Education programs have the excellent potential to teach someone actual skills that can be easily injected into the job market. Regardless of the economy there will always be a certain level of demand for auto mechanics, electricians, carpenters, welders, chefs, nurses aids, HVAC technicians, electronics technicians, etc. Public Vocational High Schools are often overlooked within the educational system as an educational alternative, which is a shame because they already have the facilities, teaching staff, the tax payer funding, job placement programs, and are adept by design at providing the skills that many employers can put to work immediately. Given the existing infrastructure of Vocational High Schools, the Adult Education programs are very affordable and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tax payer who would not support their dollars being used to subsidize a welfare recipient's vocational education. Also, a vocational education does not preclude the students ability to continue on to college and receive a "higher education".

I agree ... we have a very strong vocational educational system in place here with a decent quality framework (AQTF) and it is nested between high school and university.

We are funded reasonably well thanks.

Quality or level of education is a strong predictor of future financial wealth and health ... or I shoudl say ... there is a strong correlation.

 

[asven1]

Yes, those would be the George Soros funded organizations. Media Matters, MoveOn.org, The Tides Foundation, The Apollo Institute, et al.

Right only the democratic party has think tanks that lobby media to promote their world view......

The republicans have too much morals and ethics that prevent them from engaging in any sort of propagandizing the populace type of activities....


this is the last thread of that i will write in in which you are a participant of because I refuse to be someone who pads your forum statistics. I will not contribute to your paycheck anymore.

good day sir.

 

[wanamingo]

Ive always thought that education would be the best long term solution. America cant be a nation of button pushers working for a 1$ a day. We need highly trained educated masses that compete with the sheer numbers of China.

Start now and in 20 years we could have world class doctors and physicists. Instead of the best fast food in the world.

 

[wanamingo]

Another user ostracized by oldman. If you keep this up you'll turn this place into your own personal blog.

 

[ltrazaklt]

the user was not ostricized , simply educated with things he/she did NOT want to hear ..there is a big difference ..between being pushed out, and walking out on your own because you dont like it. interesing that this follows replies about Education.

Education is DEFINITELY Key too , the problem is that imho , most people dont seem to understand the they can Educate themselves, there are no armed guards stopping you from going to the library and reading a book ..personally I blame the Media and its terrible influence on the young minds today ( if only MTV and Rappers sang about going to school , working hard, paying the mortgage, and making sure you got health insurance BEFORE you get the Rims and the Stereo as much they talk about Rims, and having a stereo that goes to 11 (its one louder) ..then geuss what all the kids would be doing, for some reason , people seem to do whatever the Media tells them is 'cool' ..if only it were 'cool' to have a great Science Project for school ; but no that's for 'geeks' right ? if only it 'cool' to be independant and self-reliant ..but no its 'cool' to a part of some social group (like a gang even?) ..or if the Media preached about how you are just fine in the clothes you are wearing , or thats its perfectly ok to have Zits, (only normal and natural after all) ..I think self-esteem is a big factor here as well, though many may not see it or want to admit it. I used to think that I was 'deprived' and really missing out , because we had no TV till I was a teenager, and still no cableTV or MTV ever ..now that I am older ..I thank God everyday that I was forced to walk to the Library and read Books for entertainment.
But again Education is not just having money to pay for College, and Most of the time you can educate yourself. and the more you study and learn, the more likely you are to maybe even get a scholarship or a grant to pay for that college. though I would still argue that having a degree is not necessarily proof that one is smart, nor being a dropout means that you are stupid. But I cannot see any drawbacks from learning more (even from those differing opinions and facts and research than what you have) ...

"I may disagree completely with what you say , but I will fight to death for your RIGHT to say it"

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but TEACH him how to fish, and he can feed himself for the rest of his life"

 

[wanamingo]

Lol I actually kinda like the ring of "Educated with things they didn't want to hear"

But seriously that's BS. I'm sure the blaze has a forum, or maybe you can go troll Faux news. I don't care.

 

[ltrazaklt]

Gulli , while yes there is a certain amount of 'authoritarian capitalism' going on in China ..the Primary point is that several generations of Chinese made huge Sacrfices , so thought they can now enjoy (Mainly PAYING OFF THEIR DEBT, I cannot stress this enough) . If sheer numbers were the main factor of Economic power , then India China, the Muslim world, South America, and a hell of a lot more other countries would have surpassed the US a long time ago..China is (as is the rest of the developing world enjoying HUGE gains from the Innovation, Creativity and Investments of the American people ..for example, cell phones, China and Brazil are going from NO phone at all , straight to enjoying Cell Phones, ..transportation infrastructure, Computers, a number of factors , that were innovated and pioneered (and had the expense of R&D, and implementation) that the rest of world simply gets to jump on the bandwagon enjoy, this goes also developments in Agriculture and Medicine, ..China goes from No Cars and Trains, to having fuel efficient cars and electrmagnetic rails, (without having to suffer the monetary or real -world experience of actually developing them) ..take for example 'Big Pharma' ..drugs that save lives everyday, some of these drugs cost Billions of Dollars and Decades of research to develop ..and are now available to China etc ..
China maintains the Death Penalty for a LOT of things ..from dealing drugs , to simply speaking out against the Gov't ..speaking of which (you should prolly know and understand the history behind this and the involvement of say the British and Dutch and French govt's and the relationship between China and other Asian nations (formerly European colonies) and their stance on the Death penalty and drugs..wink, wink, nudge, nudge, ) ..considering some estimates say that while a Colony of Europe, as many as 1 in 3 Chinese were addcited Opium. but I digress , China and the rest of the world are making HUGE gains and enjoying the benefits of the Exceptional American 'experience' we'll call it.

 

[wanamingo]

Real quick before I leave for the weekend.

OldmanGamer has 20 Open threads on the main page (17 Politically motivated/rubbish -Quick Count-)

EVERYONE ELSE combined has 17

 

[knarl]

But seriously that's BS. I'm sure the blaze has a forum, or maybe you can go troll Faux news. I don't care.

Sometimes I wonder if forums like these would be harmonious, if they were split into sections for EU and US.



Wanamigo really makes it seem like Gamer is unhinged, when in fact I bet a comfortable majority of Americans feel exactly the same way. Other than a few Liberal strongholds like NY and CA, that have ruined their states so bad that for years there has been a mass exodus into surrounding states, the rest of our country is decidedly far right of any views you might find in EU. Maybe if were didn't have our noses stuck into each other's countries/politics where it didn't belong, we wouldn't see things like Wanam trying to stifle views and speech.... cuz you know he couldn't just not click a link he didn't want to read >.>

 

[x Heavy]

Had a mother digging through a smoker's butt disposal can next to the bench outside of the gas station. Seeking out enough butts to smoke a packs worth without paying for retail smokes.

While that was going on, her daughter was about 4 and asking for something to drink or eat. Mother in her focused hunt to take care of her addiction did not notice.

 

[beenthere]

Can't we all just impeach Congress?

 

[Reynod]

Closing this one as we don't need more upset users or abuse thanks.

And it stays closed.