News Nvidia Hacks Its Own GeForce RTX 3060 Anti-Mining Lock

[digitalgriffin]

Well, according to the crypto-mining blog, the ETH rate limit is still in 470.05 and kicks in when:
1- the GPU is operating on a PCIe slot narrower than x8, which means you cannot use anything less than x8 risers
2- no monitor is connected
3- more than one GPU is detected in the system

Basically, it was likely intended to let people with a single GPU do whatever they want with it.

They are doing more than that. That I can almost guarantee. :-D But they don't want all the secret sauce out.

 

[digitalgriffin]

Thanks. This saved me the effort of thinking about this. They probably have seen complaints from users that they should get what they paid for or something like that. Sadly, the 3060 will never see good pricing until crypto crashes and the pandemic over

Technically speaking they could have rate limited them any time they wanted under power usage restrictions to prolong life. (Similar to how they do with furmark intentional throttling) It's not really a precedent.

 

[sstanic]

Besides everything already mentioned, to me this looks like Nvidia's legal department made them do it, for obvious reasons.

 

[hotaru.hino]

I get tired of hearing this. It is more than possible. You guys don't work closed systems so you are speaking from your tail. What happened as this was beta is they didn't have a secure digital signature. That would nerf every shader/compute unit program. So they enabled the "okay to mine flag" for everything.

If all it takes to disable mining is a flag then it's only a matter of time before the miners figure that out, flip it, and whatever protections existed no longer apply. If your protections are purely software based, it's easy to bypass it with software. That doesn't mean it's easy to figure out, but that's just 99.99% of the work. And there are a lot of people who want to crack this either for the prestige or simply because it's beneficial for them.

 

[digitalgriffin]

If all it takes to disable mining is a flag then it's only a matter of time before the miners figure that out, flip it, and whatever protections existed no longer apply. If your protections are purely software based, it's easy to bypass it with software. That doesn't mean it's easy to figure out, but that's just 99.99% of the work. And there are a lot of people who want to crack this either for the prestige or simply because it's beneficial for them.

It's not that simple. It would not be a simple yes no flag. It would be a cryptographic key that matches the shader/cu program being uploaded.

If either program or key didn't match the cu would nerf in perf.

That's like saying you can hack every webpage with the same challenge response pair. You can't.

Once inside the vBIOS you have a black box which is near impossible to reverse hack.

 

[InvalidError]

It would be a cryptographic key that matches the shader program being uploaded.

There is no chance in hell of working that way since it would require that every software developer gets every shader specifically signed by Nvidia to run normally on Nvidia hardware, rinse and repeat for every hardware manufacturer who would implement such a lock.

 

[digitalgriffin]

There is no chance in hell of working that way since it would require that every software developer gets every shader specifically signed by Nvidia to run normally on Nvidia hardware, rinse and repeat for every hardware manufacturer who would implement such a lock.

When a shader is uploaded it's an il or intermediate language. The program gets compiled and sent up as microcode to the gpu. The shader compiler does the work of computing the cryptographic key. No different then a server sending a challenge token and then the algorithm hashes the program and generates a hashed response.

The reason. It's done this way is to work on a wide variety of cards with different capabilities to gain maximum performance like other il languages (Java and .Net)

I have no inside knowledge but if nvidia really wanted to make it hard the keys generated from a challenge token seed would be unique for either each card or even each call. Sort of like seeding a random number generator.

 

[InvalidError]

When a shader is uploaded it's an il or intermediate language. The program gets compiled and sent up as microcode to the gpu. The shader compiler does the work of computing the cryptographic key.

If you let the HLSL or the driver's native compiler generate the "no throttle" signature, then mining shaders get signed on compile and the whole exercise is pointless.

If you are going to say "but the compiler will identify mining-like code and not sign it", hackers will hack the compiler to make it sign the code, dump it in the shader cache and bypass the whole thing from there. Creating truly secure autonomous client-side code is nearly impossible (practically every DRM scheme ever created has been cracked or bypassed sooner or later) and not worth the trouble for something absolutely non-critical like this.

 

[digitalgriffin]

If you let the HLSL or the driver's native compiler generate the "no throttle" signature, then mining shaders get signed on compile and the whole exercise is pointless.

If you are going to say "but the compiler will identify mining-like code and not sign it", hackers will hack the compiler to make it sign the code, dump it in the shader cache and bypass the whole thing from there. Creating truly secure autonomous client-side code is nearly impossible (practically every DRM scheme ever created has been cracked or bypassed sooner or later) and not worth the trouble for something absolutely non-critical like this.

Again you can't hack the compiler because it's digitally signed which is part of the challenge responses. You mess with the compiler code the digital signature is rejected.

Every from of drm code was hacked because they used a set of static keys which was necessary to give to the content providers. This is how dvd john made his famous hack because the vendor gave up keys to the kingdom. And it's not like you can invalidate the keys on dvd and blu ray players because their drm was baked in without a potential update mechanism. Blu-ray was supposed to allow for multiple validate keys incase one was compromised. But again a sloppy vendor released all the keys unintentionally.

It's a different type of protection technology designed to solve a different problem. That's a semi open system with set keys.

This is a closed system with keys with a cryptographic hash that can be rotated.

I mean you do realize modern web encryption has not been broken right? How many compute years would it take to break a 1024 bit encryption? Yes older encryption standards like tls1 had flaws. But the new ones are so robust that it's near impossible even for state sponsored actors.

If this gets hacked nvidia only has themselves to blame. (Like they recently did)

 

[InvalidError]

I mean you do realize modern web encryption has not been broken right?

Online encryption only works because the client does not have access to the server's remotely held keys. Something like a compiler that runs entirely locally and offline is very much hackable and Nvidia is not going to waste any resources implementing "anti-cheat" compiler security.

 

[digitalgriffin]

Online encryption only works because the client does not have access to the server's remotely held keys. Something like a compiler that runs entirely locally and offline is very much hackable and Nvidia is not going to waste any resources implementing "anti-cheat" compiler security.

Sometimes I think you are working me to see how well I have this thought out.

Just like web encryption the master two part key (private key) is stored at the vbios level. It's hidden inside the black box. Randomly changing public key is sent to driver. Encryption on digital secure driver signs it. It goes back up where master private key decrypts it for validation.

Again you can rewrite the binary on the hlsl compiler. But then the digital signature fails. No proper digital signature equals automatic nerf.

These kinds of systems were used in secure hardware for years.

There are potential hacks but only if nividia got sloppy like they did with this beta driver release.

Yes this beta driver can be made useless quite easily in a two pronged approach.

Why would nvidia do this? Because they see cards selling for $2000. Why allow scalpers and middle men make all the money? Why wouldn't they want a slice of that pie? They have old unused nodes they can get cheaply. They can maximize sales on both fronts. Gamers stay happy as supplies improve Miners have to wait for a longer roi but they wouldn't stop. If 3000 series pricing drops too much nvidia will just sell more 3000 series dies to miners.

Or we can be happy paying $700 for USED rx580s that might have 2 years life left if you are lucky. All mosfets/vrms have a mtbf and total Ah rating before they fail. Paste caps do dry out. Constantly running a card 24/7 just eats at that. I don't care if you undervolt a card and down clock it. You are driving the car 24/7 is will break even if it's church roads.

Buy new keep your card 6+ years. My 7970 lasted 8 years over clocked to 1+ GHz we the maybe an hour average per day of gaming. $350 for 6 years on a new card or $700 for a used card with a 2 year life at best.

Both Linus and Steve made the argument dedicated cards make for more ewaste. I would prefer to keep 1 card at a good price for 6+years. A mining card that is replaced every 2 years would create 3x's as much ewaste.

Tell me what makes more sense?

 

[InvalidError]

Why would nvidia do this? Because they see cards selling for $2000. Why allow scalpers and middle men make all the money? Why wouldn't they want a slice of that pie?

Doing all of that tomfoolery with drivers is absolutely pointless to Nvidia as far as profit is concerned since the only money they make is from selling GPU dies to AIBs. If Nvidia really wanted to get their slice of the pie, they'd jack up MSRPs by 50% or more and adjust chip prices on new chip orders from AIBs accordingly. No need to waste a single penny on anti-mining drivers.

 

[digitalgriffin]

Doing all of that tomfoolery with drivers is absolutely pointless to Nvidia as far as profit is concerned since the only money they make is from selling GPU dies to AIBs. If Nvidia really wanted to get their slice of the pie, they'd jack up MSRPs by 50% or more and adjust chip prices on new chip orders from AIBs accordingly. No need to waste a single penny on anti-mining drivers.

The more you control the market the bigger your profit. case in point Apple's ecosystem. By forcing miners to use old nodes they can maximize unit sales. Gamers do want these 30 series cards. But if they go to say AMD/intel because AMD/intel offers them cards well then they lose mind share. That's risky. Why do you think nvidia dropped prices so hard this release? They knew AMD was coming on hard. Mind share is still vital.

Making more money is not tom foolery. These anti mining safeguards are relatively cheap to make and could be handled by a team of 3 and a couple test machines running visual studio automation test.

And nvidia must not think so either. Because they are doing it.

Now we'll see if AMD blinks. It's a fascinating game.

 

[LolaGT]

Last time I checked one is able to own as many trucks and firearms as they can afford in this country. There are no limits, no law against that.
While scalping is looked on in the same light as criminal defense lawyers, the reason they exist is because people are foolish enough to pay the price.

Are you in China?

I know someone who has assembled a small arsenal of weapons and ammunition using proceeds from scalping dozens of PS5's. The coworker who was scalping GPUs bought a huge F250 pickup truck using the money. Scalpers are absolutely doing things Amazon, Ebay, Newegg, and friends would be uncomfortable to be linked to. However, I think they would continue to look the other way because of all the money they're making.

Reporting that scalpers made ___ amount of money probably isn't as helpful as saying what they're doing with the money.

 

[excalibur1814]

nVidia: "We did something so we won't get that much agro!"
nVidia: "Opps, we messed up a little, but it's okay as we KNEW that the clever people would figure it out. We tried though!"
nVidia's bank account: Chaaaaaaaaaaaaa-ching no matter what.

I'm stuck with a 1050. Not even a ti. :/

 

[InvalidError]

Why do you think nvidia dropped prices so hard this release?

MSRPs are irrelevant when it is nearly impossible to actually get GPUs for less than double MSRP which themselves are about the same as the 2000-series. The initial contracts for AMD's 6000-series and Nvidia's 3000-series were likely signed before the new crypto rush, so there is no point in AMD and Nvidia raising MSRPs since they weren't going see an extra dollar from it until those contracts expire.

 

[digitalgriffin]

MSRPs are irrelevant when it is nearly impossible to actually get GPUs for less than double MSRP which themselves are about the same as the 2000-series. The initial contracts for AMD's 6000-series and Nvidia's 3000-series were likely signed before the new crypto rush, so there is no point in AMD and Nvidia raising MSRPs since they weren't going see an extra dollar from it until those contracts expire.

I'm missing your point. Yes they are under contract. It doesn't mean they can't maximize their returns with new products dedicated to mining where real profits are. NVIDIA, nor AMD technically speaking, needs one of their current partners to make the mining boards. They can hire an outside company like Foxconn to do it. Or they can sell the raw chips (like they do now). By hampering performance on mining on consumer parts, they direct miners to purchase the higher margin parts.

 

[InvalidError]

By hampering performance on mining on consumer parts, they direct miners to purchase the higher margin parts.

If Nvidia really wanted to maximize its revenues, then it would channel 100% of its GPUs into mining SKUs to bypass pre-crypto-boom contract prices on consumer GPUs until demand winds down and the market would be no better off than it is right now.

 

[Krotow]

So gamers may now purchase upcoming Intel Xe HPG GPUs and don't bother about Nvidia/AMD anymore. At least until latest two will turn with face side to gamers again.

 

[InvalidError]

So gamers may now purchase upcoming Intel Xe HPG GPUs and don't bother about Nvidia/AMD anymore.

If Intel did its job reasonably well with Xe, there will be a price-performance window where Xe will be the most cost-effective GPU for mining and it won't get exempted from bulk purchases by miners either.

 

[digitalgriffin]

If Nvidia really wanted to maximize its revenues, then it would channel 100% of its GPUs into mining SKUs to bypass pre-crypto-boom contract prices on consumer GPUs until demand winds down and the market would be no better off than it is right now.

By forcing miners to use older nodes, they are maximizing profits. Their mining chips are mostly Turing uArch. That's an approach I didn't predict, so I have to give them credit there.

But like I said, mindshare is important. NVIDIA doesn't want to risk losing mindshare to AMD. Once a consumer switches they have a tendency to stick with the new brand research shows.

 

[digitalgriffin]

Driver mirrored here, since Nvidia removed the download from their own site.

http://www.norbert-the-great.com/Nvidia Driver 470.05.rar

For those thinking that this driver will work forever: WARNING: IT WILL NOT.

 

[InvalidError]

By forcing miners to use older nodes, they are maximizing profits. Their mining chips are mostly Turing uArch. That's an approach I didn't predict, so I have to give them credit there.

They may be maximizing profits on whatever contracts they may have had left for 12-16nm wafers but if Nvidia wanted to maximize total profits across all available wafers, they'd have 7nm mining SKUs for maximum profit out of 7nm wafers too. Also, Ampere is more power-efficient than Turing and Pascal, which makes Ampere more cost-effective to run over the 6+ months to break-even and net income generation beyond that. Add the higher residual resale price of cards with monitor outputs and lower initial purchase price of GPUs vs mining cards, you get miners still very much interested in getting Ampere GPUs over anything else Nvidia might make.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who wish Nvidia would use its 12nm cranking capacity to bring the 1650S and 1660S back down to MSRP instead of making mining SKUs too. Nvidia using 12nm to make mining cards isn't really helping anyone who wants a new GPU.

There is no miracle fix other than waiting it out.

 

[digitalgriffin]

They may be maximizing profits on whatever contracts they may have had left for 12-16nm wafers but if Nvidia wanted to maximize total profits across all available wafers, they'd have 7nm mining SKUs for maximum profit out of 7nm wafers too. Also, Ampere is more power-efficient than Turing and Pascal, which makes Ampere more cost-effective to run over the 6+ months to break-even and net income generation beyond that. Add the higher residual resale price of cards with monitor outputs and lower initial purchase price of GPUs vs mining cards, you get miners still very much interested in getting Ampere GPUs over anything else Nvidia might make.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who wish Nvidia would use its 12nm cranking capacity to bring the 1650S and 1660S back down to MSRP instead of making mining SKUs too. Nvidia using 12nm to make mining cards isn't really helping anyone who wants a new GPU.

There is no miracle fix other than waiting it out.

You are kind of making my point. To get miners off Ampere you have to sour the milk a little...so to speak. If demand drops off enough, I'm sure NVIDIA will more than happily direct more Ampere supply to mining farms.

Turing is on a very mature node and the fab cost has been accounted for. A relaunch (further production runs) will have significant cost savings associated with it. But you are right it isn't near as efficient as Ampere. And hence why you need to sour the milk. If you take away the appeal to miners, then more cards will reach gamers hands.