News OEMs Target Miners with RTX 2060 12GB, But Gamers Need It More

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

TJ Hooker

Titan
Ambassador
And a point about "market caps"; what nVidia/AMD/Intel make out of "gaming" products is just a fraction of all the money involved in that market. It's like saying the automobile industry's market cap is what Ford/Toyota makes in a year because they're the top seller. There's way more to the "gaming" market than the hardware. While cryptos are soaring due to reasons, the gaming market is bigger still due to just how much money it moves around. Keep in mind EA is about $35B alone. That's a lot of microtransactions that depend on people's hardware running the games they produce.
It seems you're conflating market cap and revenue, which are two very different things. Market cap is equal to share price multiplied by number of outstanding shares, or ~$35B in EA's case. EA's revenue, i.e. the total value of their sales for the year, was ~$5.5B (in 2020).

The size/value of the gaming industry would be the total revenue from all video games/services. I would refer to this total as something other than "market cap", given that market cap already has a different definition. Maybe "industry revenue" or something like that.
 

TJ Hooker

Titan
Ambassador
The games industry as a whole is also massive, like bigger than all sports + the movie industry combined massive, if I remember correctly.
You got me curious, and it looks like the global video game market is bigger than the global film market and North American sports market combined. If you looked at the global sports market though, it's roughly double the global video games market.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/v...s-combined-thanks-to-the-pandemic-11608654990
 
  • Like
Reactions: helper800
It seems you're conflating market cap and revenue, which are two very different things. Market cap is equal to share price multiplied by number of outstanding shares, or ~$35B in EA's case. EA's revenue, i.e. the total value of their sales for the year, was ~$5.5B (in 2020).

The size/value of the gaming industry would be the total revenue from all video games/services. I would refer to this total as something other than "market cap", given that market cap already has a different definition. Maybe "industry revenue" or something like that.
I used the stock valuation, because EA, as a publisher, depends 100% of what the gaming market looks like to the eyes of investors and such. You're correct it's not the best or even correct way, but it's easier to understand. And I know that the "potential value" of any market is not what any given Company makes from it (even the sum of all the participating ones, to be clear). That's exactly what I was trying to illustrate, albeit poorly.

To put it differently (and agreeing with what you say, just to be clear), this is a "potential" vs "real" revenue for the total/complete market money pot, which depends on so many factors it's not worth going into that rabbit hole IMO. If EA made "just" $5.5B (using them again), it doesn't mean the potential max amount of money they can make is $5.5B or all the current participants (in the gaming market) revenues. So their market cap (which is the valuation of the Company) is a better reflection of how "valued" is the gaming market from EA's value lens. I hope that makes more sense now?

Regards.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TJ Hooker

Endymio

Reputable
BANNED
Aug 3, 2020
725
264
5,270
Endymio said:
You stated that changes in supply would not influence pricing.
I did not state that. I said it would not affect the price miners would be willing to pay.

You said, to quote, "those changes in supply whether positive or negative are not having any impact on market pricing. " Market pricing is not the price one is willing to pay, but the price one must pay on the open market.
 

spongiemaster

Admirable
Dec 12, 2019
2,276
1,280
7,560
You said, to quote, "those changes in supply whether positive or negative are not having any impact on market pricing. " Market pricing is not the price one is willing to pay, but the price one must pay on the open market.
Like I said before, you're selectively quoting me to remove the context and misrepresent what I said and then counter arguing a point I never made. Your counter point is so far from relevance to what I said, that I couldn't even tell what part of my post you were fake responding to.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TJ Hooker

spongiemaster

Admirable
Dec 12, 2019
2,276
1,280
7,560
You got me curious, and it looks like the global video game market is bigger than the global film market and North American sports market combined. If you looked at the global sports market though, it's roughly double the global video games market.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/v...s-combined-thanks-to-the-pandemic-11608654990
When you look at a break down of the gaming numbers you see how meaningless the overall number is. 50% of the overall market revenue is from mobile. There is almost no crossover between mobile and the PC market. Candy Crush is not increasing PC gaming revenue. Taken further, half the mobile market is from Asia. And half of that (12.5% of the total gaming market revenue) is controlled by 2 Chinese companies no gamer outside of China has probably ever heard of. By comparison, Electronic Arts had about 3% of the global revenue. The gaming market is like an octopus on roller skates. There's a lot of movement going on, but it's not going in any one direction. There's no $180 billion singular vision industry influence. There are multiple separate parts all doing their own thing.
 

King_V

Illustrious
Ambassador
You haven't read carefully. Floating prices balance supply and demand. A price set by the manufacturer can act against the the entire market, whereas a scalper's price works only against those unable to get a card directly.

Which brings us back to your belief that making sure the privileged can get a GPU at the expense of everyone else is somehow better than giving everyone a chance up front.

You seriously cannot be attempting to refute such a basic point. Every middleman between producer and end-user adds a certain overhead to the process. Scalpers have overhead also, even if no more than one additional shipping cost, along with some slight additional expectation of risk.
But your claim was that getting rid of that deadweight means "the price manufacturers would be required to charge to balance supply and demand would be significantly lower ."

No, I am not refuting the basic point. I'm outright dismissing your claim that the resultant price would be significantly lower.

Mod Edit - Don't make this personal
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Endymio

Reputable
BANNED
Aug 3, 2020
725
264
5,270
Which brings us back to your belief that making sure the privileged can get a GPU at the expense of everyone else is somehow better than giving everyone a chance up front.
A belief shared by every major economist, every peer-review published research paper on the subject, as well as more than a century of real-world data.

But, to correct a rather clumsy distortion of my statement, it is not "the privileged" who should get such items, but rather "those willing and able to pay for them". In a free market, graphics cards, like Ferrari sports cars, go to those who have worked hard for the necessary funds, and wish to use a portion of them to this end. In the neo-communist egalitarian dystopia you envision, they indeed go only to "the privileged" -- high government officials, and those they favor.

As for the "somehow" portion of your paraphrasing, there is a multiplicity of real, quantifiable reasons why luxury goods go to those best able to afford them. An economist would invoke the law of equimarginal satisfaction. However, there are many other reasons:
  1. A wealthier or more motivated purchaser is willing to pay more, and in the general case, the additional funds flow to the manufacturer, which incentivizes them (or, failing them, their competitors) to increase supply, which ultimately reduces prices.
  2. The purchaser, to acquire the funds to purchase the luxury good, engaged in free-market transactions (i.e. the sale of their labor) beneficial to the economy.
  3. Those individuals desiring the luxury item but lacking sufficient funds to justify the purchase, are incentivized to work longer, harder, or smarter, which also benefits the economy.
For a scalped transaction, factor 1 does not apply (actually, a portion of 1 still does, but let's ignore that for now) but all the others do, especially equimarginal satisfaction. The actuality is that 99.9% of the people claiming they "can't afford" a $2K graphics card can afford it -- they simply choose to spend that $2K on something they value more.

Your claim was that getting rid of that deadweight means "the price manufacturers would be required to charge to balance supply and demand would be significantly lower ."
Your attempts to misstate my remarks are quite persistent. My actual statement was that the equilibrium price from the manufacturer would be lower due to several reasons: the primary one being the fact that manufacturers service the entire market curve, whereas scalpers serve only the upper portion. Deadweight losses involved in these particular scalper transactions are a factor, but a fairly minor one; I'd estimate 5% or less of the transaction. Regarding scalping/quasi-black market transactions in general, however, deadweight losses can be much higher. Research data on such sales in authoritarian regimes regularly see deadweight losses of 90% or more of the transaction amount.
 
When you look at a break down of the gaming numbers you see how meaningless the overall number is. 50% of the overall market revenue is from mobile. There is almost no crossover between mobile and the PC market. Candy Crush is not increasing PC gaming revenue. Taken further, half the mobile market is from Asia. And half of that (12.5% of the total gaming market revenue) is controlled by 2 Chinese companies no gamer outside of China has probably ever heard of. By comparison, Electronic Arts had about 3% of the global revenue. The gaming market is like an octopus on roller skates. There's a lot of movement going on, but it's not going in any one direction. There's no $180 billion singular vision industry influence. There are multiple separate parts all doing their own thing.
That was a hilarious simile. I guess it depends on how big one would consider a large industry. Is a 5b dollar a year industry a big one? How about 10b? 25b? For examples sake, lets say the PC games industry is a 10b dollar a year venture. Who is to say how much pull that industry has over the underlying semiconductor industry? The semiconductor industry is also extremely segmented compared to the whole. Nvidia and AMD which are consumers of silicon but manufacturers of CPUs and GPUs, but they are together around 40b dollars of yearly revenue. Compare that to the industry they are in (semiconductor) which is worth 550b a year. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, however, the line of reasoning is solid that individual parts of an industry while smaller than the whole are still massive and may or may not have significant pull over supporting industry.
 
Last edited:
OK! Let me make this very clear. If I see any more of this back and forth bickering about who said what and when then this thread will be closed and sanctions handed out. Get back on the posted topic and stop the off-topic arguing.
 

King_V

Illustrious
Ambassador
A belief shared by every major economist, every peer-review published research paper on the subject, as well as more than a century of real-world data.

EVERY economist? EVERY peer-review published research paper?

But, to correct a rather clumsy distortion of my statement, it is not "the privileged" who should get such items, but rather "those willing and able to pay for them". In a free market, graphics cards, like Ferrari sports cars, go to those who have worked hard for the necessary funds, and wish to use a portion of them to this end. In the neo-communist egalitarian dystopia you envision, they indeed go only to "the privileged" -- high government officials, and those they favor.
Six of one, half-dozen of the other. And, yes, from other posts, you've made your opinion/aversion to communism/socialism/market-regulation quite clear. But your analogy doesn't fit here.

What you describe is not what happens in the GPU/scalper market. What happens is that SOME few manage to snag them before the scalpers and miners do. Neither the scalpers nor the miners benefit this system at all. That's something you've still not proven.

(snip irrelevant, self-disproving portion)

Your attempts to misstate my remarks are quite persistent. My actual statement was that the equilibrium price from the manufacturer would be lower due to several reasons: the primary one being the fact that manufacturers service the entire market curve, whereas scalpers serve only the upper portion. Deadweight losses involved in these particular scalper transactions are a factor, but a fairly minor one; I'd estimate 5% or less of the transaction. Regarding scalping/quasi-black market transactions in general, however, deadweight losses can be much higher. Research data on such sales in authoritarian regimes regularly see deadweight losses of 90% or more of the transaction amount.
Authoritarian regimes are not relevant to this conversation at all, ergo, I won't bother asking for proof of this cherry-picked research.

I have misstated nothing. You said:
Incorrect. The point you fail to grasp is that the price manufacturers need to set to balance supply and demand is lower than that extractable via scalping, as manufacturers service both ends of a "bell curve" gaussian distribution, whereas scalpers service only one. Scalper transactions additionally have a certain amount of deadweight loss which is avoidable in a direct transaction. Thus, the price manufacturers would be required to charge to balance supply and demand would be significantly lower .

That bolded conclusion is what you have failed to prove. You make the underlined claim, unsupported, which, while technically true, is true to a very insignificant amount. You then state the bolded-italicized conclusion, which is only a restatement of the underlined claim, with the word "significantly" dropped in there.

If manufacturers increase the price as you suggest, they are not servicing both ends of the bell curve... they are, like the scalper, closing off the low end. That is the consequence of an increased price.

The only thing you can possibly claim is that manufacturers will cut off less from the low end than scalpers will. The difference in how much the manufacturer doing what you suggest versus the scalper, will be small, because anything lower will re-introduce the scalpers.

That is, to requote what you said above:
Deadweight losses involved in these particular scalper transactions are a factor, but a fairly minor one; I'd estimate 5% or less of the transaction.

So, if the scalper's deadweight is ≤ 5%, then if the manufacturer brings the price to less than 95% of the scalper's selling price, then it is again worth it for the scalper to get involved.
 

Endymio

Reputable
BANNED
Aug 3, 2020
725
264
5,270
EVERY economist? EVERY peer-review published research paper?
Unless you count the manifesto of the Young Socialists as economic research, yes. Allotting luxury goods to those best able to afford them results in a society with more goods, more wealth, and a higher standard of living for us all. But as valuable as that body of economic research and opinion is, it is -- and should be -- subordinate to the real-world, and the effects we observe there. Note the standard of living and quality of life in nations which do not follow such policies, and the untold misery for the people who live there.

That bolded conclusion is what you have failed to prove.
To prove it mathematically, I must invoke the Central Limit Theorem and some (very basic) calculus. However, it's quite easy to see why it is true with a simple graphical visualization. The maximum price buyers are wiling to pay varies by individual; the total universe of these prices form a bell curve. The price a seller demands sets a vertical line across that curve -- if the area thus captured (the demand) is more than total supply, a shortage will result. In this particular case, we can assume this, as scalping only occurs in shortage situations.

By definition, scalpers service only a universe of buyers willing to pay more than the product's original price. Their resultant demand curve also forms a gaussian distribution, but one with a right-shifted median value. The smaller the fraction of the total market scalpers service, the smaller this secondary curve becomes, but the further the median shifts to a higher price point. Conversely, if the entire product supply were "scalped" these two curves would be identical, and the price required to balance supply and demand would likewise correspond.

Mod Edit - Inappropriate comment
 
Last edited by a moderator:
EVERY economist? EVERY peer-review published research paper?


Six of one, half-dozen of the other. And, yes, from other posts, you've made your opinion/aversion to communism/socialism/market-regulation quite clear. But your analogy doesn't fit here.

What you describe is not what happens in the GPU/scalper market. What happens is that SOME few manage to snag them before the scalpers and miners do. Neither the scalpers nor the miners benefit this system at all. That's something you've still not proven.


Authoritarian regimes are not relevant to this conversation at all, ergo, I won't bother asking for proof of this cherry-picked research.

I have misstated nothing. You said:


That bolded conclusion is what you have failed to prove. You make the underlined claim, unsupported, which, while technically true, is true to a very insignificant amount. You then state the bolded-italicized conclusion, which is only a restatement of the underlined claim, with the word "significantly" dropped in there.

If manufacturers increase the price as you suggest, they are not servicing both ends of the bell curve... they are, like the scalper, closing off the low end. That is the consequence of an increased price.

The only thing you can possibly claim is that manufacturers will cut off less from the low end than scalpers will. The difference in how much the manufacturer doing what you suggest versus the scalper, will be small, because anything lower will re-introduce the scalpers.

That is, to requote what you said above:


So, if the scalper's deadweight is ≤ 5%, then if the manufacturer brings the price to less than 95% of the scalper's selling price, then it is again worth it for the scalper to get involved.
Despite @Endymio's rather incendiary delivery on what he is saying, I believe, in this case, its based in reality. I clearly do not agree with him on everything, but if you objectively look at the content of what he is saying, it makes sense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.