Official Shutdown Thread

[riser]

How about this...Pass a clean CR, raise the debt ceiling, then "fix" ACA to provide coverage and improve the LAW (passed by both houses of Congress, signed by the President, and upheld by the SCOTUS).

Sure be nice to actually have an annual budget and not spend the whole year under a CR (as many predict), IMHO. This may be asking too much, though.

Democrats are pushing for the ACA and their budget plan right now along with a $1.1 trillion debt ceiling increase.

I agree with the Republicans. Pass it except make Congress and Obama use the ACA and not some other healthcare.

The question is, why are they so afraid of their own law they made that they don't want to be part of it?

 

[MU_Engineer]

Sorry, I have been extremely busy at work recently so I have gotten behind on this thread.

History lesson:

Companies started offering benefits to employees to help a candidate to decide to work for them. Both companies pay the same money, but one offered benefits in order to draw the person to work for them.

The real history lesson that employer-provided health insurance is actually a by-product of government meddling. It was part of FDR's wage and price controls he instituted in 1942. Health insurance spending didn't count towards the wage caps, so it was a perk that companies could use to compete with each other for workers, since they could not pay workers more due to the wage caps. Health insurance premiums paid by businesses was also deductible from taxes which made it less expensive for the business to provide a given benefit amount in health insurance vs. simply paying the employee. The wage and price controls expired in 1947 but the tax deductibility of health insurance and its relatively low cost meant that health insurance was going to be mainly provided by employers from then on.

But that isnt what the people want, its not what they voted for. I see more of a fear that Obamacare will actually work. The republicans are working against the democratic process, they are becoming more and more of a vestigial limb thats on its way to being removed.

Actually, the Republican representatives who are fighting Obamacare are doing exactly what they were elected to do. The thing you are hung up on is that while YOU may want Obamacare and your Democrat Congressmen may support it, other people do not want it and the Republican Congressmen they elect try to fight it. That really is the process of government. A single party ruling over everybody and expecting no opposition whatsoever is what happens in a dictatorship, not in a representative government.

How is having healthcare an irresponsible financial decision? It more unwise not to be covered at all! Besides if you are so poor that you cant front the 95$ fine then maybe you should refrain from throwing your thoughts into the public sphere.

Paying large sums of money for insurance premiums for coverage you are very unlikely to use very much of is an irresponsible financial decision. I'll use the car insurance analogy since the left loves to use it (albeit they use it incorrectly.) The Obamacare coverage mandates essentially forces everybody to pay the same rates for whatever they drive that a guy with a history of two speeding tickets pays to insure his new Escalade with zero-deductible full coverage. Folks with two DWIs applaud the decision as their rates go down, so do the folks with 15 tickets and various moving violations and folks insuring more expensive vehicles like Porsche 911Turbos and Class 8 trucks. People like me insuring a 12-year-old Ford Escape with a spotless driving record who just want a cheap liability only policy are very much out of luck as we have to subsidize all of the drunks, speeders, and folks who want to drive around vehicles worth two orders of magnitude more than mine. There is no financial sense in that, as there is no financial sense in forcing younger and healthier people to pay the same amounts as the guy who washes down his four daily Big Macs with a case of beer and two packs of smokes and never has seen the inside of a gym since high school.

Heres the fine for 2014 if you decide not to participate.

$95 per adult, plus $47.50 per child, max $285 or 1% of income

Those are only the introductory "teaser" fines. The fines go up every year until 2016. The full fines in 2016 are a minimum of $695/person or $2085/family, or 2.5% of your income, whichever is greater.

If this goes until the 17th your country is going to be bankrupted ... go backwards for 10 or more years and likely a civil war will erupt ...

But I gues the extremists there want that?

They must be moving a ton of money offshore this week ... protecting their personal castles and such.

Rhetoric much? The debt ceiling being reached forcing a default is an easily proved lie. The interest payment on the debt was $223B in FY2012, or only 6% of total government spending. The tax receipts of the U.S. Treasury in FY2012 were $2.45T. The government takes in just under 11 times as much money as it requires to pay the interest on the debt. Corporate income taxes ($245B) alone would more than pay the debt service obligation. We would only be forced to default if the interest payments exceeded tax revenues, which they are more than an order of magnitude away from doing. The only reason we would default is if the government chose to do so.

What would actually happen if the debt ceiling was reached is that the government would have to reduce its spending on things other than debt interest from $3.32T to $2.23T. The government would still get to spend 2 out of every 3 dollars they currently spend on all of the millions of other things they spend money on. It would hardly be the end of the country if that happened. I do guarantee that the current administration would try to make the cuts the absolutely most painful as possible while protecting spending on fluff most people couldn't care less about. They did that with furloughing the air traffic controllers during the last debt ceiling debate and during this "shutdown" with preventing people from going into open-air unsecured federal parks such as the WWII memorial. I'd predict Obama to do something really goofy like close all federal highways or something equally asinine if he didn't get his way on the debt ceiling. That sort of behavior is what will spark unrest, not the government flunkies, administration cronies, and the entitlement class getting only 2/3 as much "free money" as before.

I pulled out my paycheck to check my taxes. Every 3 paychecks, I pay 1 full paycheck to the government (It's 100 more than my paycheck).

I'm guessing you're paying less than 1/3 of your check to the government. I don't even pay a state income tax either. That means for every 240 hours I work, I donate 80 hours to the government.

I pay about every other paycheck to the government in taxes, including the 13.85% in payroll taxes in addition to federal and state income taxes. I work about 80 hours a week in my salaried job, so I work a "normal person full time" job just to pay my taxes. This is just taxes, not even counting the high interest rate federal monopoly student loans I have to pay as well.

JohnsonMA, if you wonder why I seem upset, that is why. You'd be upset too, especially with Obamacare directly affecting your wages (stagnant to declining), hours (ever increasing), and working conditions (worsening). The fact that my insurance premiums are increasing by thousands of dollars a year because of this as well is just icing on the cake.

 

[wanamingo]

Too much wall of text.... this thread has almost run its course. Now we are getting down to ideological differences. Have I mentioned yet how much I hate this embedding replies thing? If I replied to MU then someone replied to that it would be a mess.

@Riser - Come one gold plated plans? Its my understanding they get their plans from the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program which is where all federal employees get plans, like most places (me included) there isn't going to be a change, our healthcare plans will be the same. Explain if I'm wrong. I would also be interested in seeing what bill you are talking about, I cant find anything.

@Mu Ill give it to the republicans, not all of them want this just a few tea party wackos. Do you not find it funny/sad that Michelle Bachmann is going on TV shouting "this is what we wanted and we got it!"? Why do they want to shutdown the government instead of fixing problems they see in the law? I dont think its the job of the government to represent the will of a few congressmen, against the will of the people.

I like the car analogy, but the main thing here is not everyone needs a car or will use a car. I understand there is a bit of minutiae, please see that post Oldman made about the doc accepting cash only. But everyone will eventually need medical services. Everybody gets sick, 80% of people who file for medical bankruptcy already have insurance, the system was already broken. I also understand that Obamacare sucks and its not a perfect solution (I think single payer could work fine, but the political sh*tstorm a few congressmen would flip keeps that far away from the table, and if you remember this was the first concession that dems made. But I am a Vermonter and we already had a form of single payer, kinda not really, its also worth noting VT has been in the top 3 healthiest states.) So why not try to make this law feasible? They could have done it, Boehner (heheh) and company could have seriously done some good thihgs but instead they shutdown the government.

As for the deficit, no one has a plan. We would be in the same exact boat with republicans if they had taken the last election. If republicans are so concerned about the deficit why wouldn't they approve the 4 trillion $ cut over 10 years in 2011? Boehner (heheh, seriously auto correct stop it) is quoted as saying " a smaller package of about $2 trillion to $2.4 trillion was more realistic"? Besides I mean its not like a republican led presidency and republican led house have never raised the debt ceiling /s


Ill try to summon a few people for this question...

@Reynod
@Gropouce - You especially, I know a hospital employs you.

Or anyone from a country where universal healthcare exists, I know we have a Canadian or two in here.

What are your experiences with healthcare? How silly do the Americans look? Now that you live in a post apocalyptic hell-scape because the takers have destroyed your economy with their welfare babies and free gender reassignment surgeries was it worth it? Ill wait for your answer because I know its going to take a while to get out of your fortifications and establish a sat-link before the takers get government permission to take your laptop.

I know when I think of destroyed liberal countries Canada, Sweden and Australia jump to mind.

 

[chunkymonster]

Interesting government shut down facts...

In reality, the government is NOT actually shut down. The reality is there has been a reduction of only 17% of the services the government provides and 83% of the government is and has been funded well into 2014 as a result of baseline budgeting and previous resolutions. The 17% of services that have been shut down all fall under the Executive Branch and are at the discretion of the President and Office of Budget and Management to determine which services continue to remain open and which service are to be closed. So, when the American people are denied access to national parks, historical sights, memorials, etc it is being done at the sole discretion of the Executive Branch...NOT CONGRESS!

The House of Representatives has the sole Constitutional power to originate all revenue raising appropriations. And, the House of Representatives has the sole discretion to determine which functions and services are funded as part of the annual budget.

The steps that the Republican controlled House of Representatives are taking to fund the government or deny funding for are Constitutionally and historically correct as well as being in line with the original intent of the Constitution. The House of Representatives are voted in every two years to ensure the parts of the government being funded with the people's tax dollars are a direct reflection of the will of the people. Our republic was intentionally created with a bi-cameral legislative process to place the proper limits and controls on the Federal government from over spending.

The only thing the that is Constitutionally required to be paid for is the national debt; Section 4 of the 14th Amendment. The IRS is still collecting income tax, which means that the government is still taking in revenue. That revenue is in the sum total of $1.9 Trillion in 2013. The interest on the national debt is $415 Billion in 2013. It is obvious that the government has the income to pay the interest as well as fund the essential services of the government. The claim by Democrats that America will default on the debt is an absolute fabrication and blatant demagoguery.

If the debt ceiling is not raised or of the current impasse is not resolved, the reality is that Congress will actually have to prioritize its expenses and keep its monthly, weekly, and daily spending under the revenue the government collects. Simply put, the government would have to spend an amount less than or equal to what the IRS collects in revenue.

The 14th Amendment does not in any way shape of form permit the President to continue to fund the government without the consent or legislation from the House of Representatives. The President can not by-pass the Congress and push a budget into law.

 

[riser]

@Mingo:
Congress and the President, elected officials, have their own plans above and beyond the Federal employee ones. I know what the Federal plan is and it is really good, but Congress and the like have an option to an even better plan, only for them. They have access to certain doctors immediately and get priority over everyone when seeking medical help. The Federal program doesn't offer that, it just has really good coverage.


On National Healthcare, only Japan runs in the Black on it. Everyone else is losing money on in. Japan, if I recall their system, you pay up to 14% of your income monthly towards your accrued health expenses for up to 3 years. After paying up to 14% for 3 years, the debt is wiped. The average Japanese family is paying around $500/month on their medical bills, in addition to their taxes, etc. for healthcare.

Simply put, if the Average American had an extra $500/month disposable income, a lot of things would be far better. Most Americans have less than $4000 in savings! ( I would argue less than $1000 but the stat I saw averaged everyone for $3800)

 

[riser]

Interesting government shut down facts...

In reality, the government is NOT actually shut down. The reality is there has been a reduction of only 17% of the services the government provides and 83% of the government is and has been funded well into 2014 as a result of baseline budgeting and previous resolutions. The 17% of services that have been shut down all fall under the Executive Branch and are at the discretion of the President and Office of Budget and Management to determine which services continue to remain open and which service are to be closed. So, when the American people are denied access to national parks, historical sights, memorials, etc it is being done at the sole discretion of the Executive Branch...NOT CONGRESS!

The House of Representatives has the sole Constitutional power to originate all revenue raising appropriations. And, the House of Representatives has the sole discretion to determine which functions and services are funded as part of the annual budget.

The steps that the Republican controlled House of Representatives are taking to fund the government or deny funding for are Constitutionally and historically correct as well as being in line with the original intent of the Constitution. The House of Representatives are voted in every two years to ensure the parts of the government being funded with the people's tax dollars are a direct reflection of the will of the people. Our republic was intentionally created with a bi-cameral legislative process to place the proper limits and controls on the Federal government from over spending.

The only thing the that is Constitutionally required to be paid for is the national debt; Section 4 of the 14th Amendment. The IRS is still collecting income tax, which means that the government is still taking in revenue. That revenue is in the sum total of $1.9 Trillion in 2013. The interest on the national debt is $415 Billion in 2013. It is obvious that the government has the income to pay the interest as well as fund the essential services of the government. The claim by Democrats that America will default on the debt is an absolute fabrication and blatant demagoguery.

If the debt ceiling is not raised or of the current impasse is not resolved, the reality is that Congress will actually have to prioritize its expenses and keep its monthly, weekly, and daily spending under the revenue the government collects. Simply put, the government would have to spend an amount less than or equal to what the IRS collects in revenue.

The 14th Amendment does not in any way shape of form permit the President to continue to fund the government without the consent or legislation from the House of Representatives. The President can not by-pass the Congress and push a budget into law.

I say let it sit. Make Obama negotiate and accept the ACA for his family and himself. How mighty does this guy think he really is in a country where the people are supposed to rule?

Hell, he's already going to go down as one of the worst presidents so I don't think he's going to be too concerned with his legacy. Might as well put an asterisk next to his name.

 

[COLGeek]

Is it time to close this and move on?

 

[riser]

Nah, it's still going forward.

GOP is offering a 6 week debt limit increase as long as Obama opens the door to negotiate structural changes to healthcare and tax reform. That will calm the financial markets, but keep government shutdown.

That's a pretty clean offer on the GOP's part just to ask for negotiations, something the president has been unwilling. Maybe the GOP has finally realized they need to play the game and let them hang themselves.

 

[wanamingo]

Riser are you implying there hasnt been any negotiations happening?

 

[riser]

There have not been any negotiations from the Left after the House sent 3 bills to the Senate and the 4th time requested to sit down in mediation to find a bill that would pass. All have been rejected by the left.

I understand the Senate is amending the House bills, voting on them, and sending them back down striking what the House passed. That's not really negotiations.

Edit:

And Mingo, if you're going to reference Harry Reid wanting to go to conference and getting blocked 19 times, I would call you clueless. The conference is an agreement that Harry has been pushing for months to appointment a committee to sit down and review the budget. It's something he is very interested in because he gets to appoint the people who determine what it comes out to be. That's why it keeps getting blocked.

 

[wanamingo]

Well since the shutdown was months in the planning, maybe a week or two before the shutdown would have been a good time to figure something out? I understand the thought behind not bending to these tactics, it legitimizes throwing a tantrum.

Besides that why did every single republican Obama invited to debate it decline today?

 

[riser]

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/budget/295477-reid-to-seek-consent-to-convene-budget-conference-

To sum the argument up:

The House-passed budget cuts $4.6 trillion in spending on top of the $1.2 trillion sequestration cuts already scheduled to take effect, and it balances in 10 years.

The Senate-passed budget has $975 billion in new taxes, does not balance, and does not cut spending when the fact it turns off sequestration is taken into effect.

 

[riser]

Well since the shutdown was months in the planning, maybe a week or two before the shutdown would have been a good time to figure something out? I understand the thought behind not bending to these tactics, it legitimizes throwing a tantrum.

Besides that why did every single republican Obama invited to debate it decline today?

Provide a link on it. I thought the debates were done? It is now a matter of making a budget and curbing excessive spending.

6 trillion in new debt under Obama in 4 years. Read an article today saying that Obama may actually succeed in being the first to double the existing debt. Clinton raised is 32%, Bush did 38%, Obama is around 56%, meaning he's raised the debt over half of what it was since he took office.

Let's just look at that. 6 trillion spent and what do we have to show for it? A shaky economy, more part time workers, a flaky national healthcare plan, higher taxes, high inflation..

For the $6t spent, what do we have to show for it? And why it is such a big deal for the left to want to cut back on spending? They railed on Bush when he spent; now they're in control and they're outspending anyone in recent history!

$1 trillion in new taxes as well.. to what point? To benefit the few at the cost of many? The GOP just gave him $650 Billion in new taxes in January this year. Now they want $1 trillion MORE? It hasn't even been a year!

 

[chunkymonster]

What I want to know is where are the Occupy Wall Street folks? They seemingly dropped off the face of the earth. Or maybe they just went back to sipping lattes and organizing their iTunes playlists...I dunno...

Anyway, the reason I ask is because based on their rhetoric and reasons for protesting the 1%. If so, the I would think that the Occupy crowd would be in favor of a prolonged government shut down as well as America going into default and not paying the interest on the national debt.

How so? What pipe am I smoking? Well, a fair amount of the national debt is held by the banks and investment firms that bought the long and short term government bonds that are being used to print the money for quantitative easing. If the government were to default on paying the interest on the national debt, the government would effectively be denying the Wall Street investors and banks their pay back for having bought the bonds. So, it stands to reason (at least in my mind) that if they OWS crowd was against the 1% getting richer and targeted the Wall Street investors and banks, then they would wholly support a prolonged government shut down and actually want America to default on paying the interest on the national debt.

 

[riser]

You know that's a good point. What did happen to OWS? I always thought they were a paid for/made up group to compete against the Tea Party.. but the Tea Party is truly grass roots and has staying power.

 

[wanamingo]

Hell Republicans are holding at a steady 28%...whats the process look like to kick everyone out and start over?

 

[riser]

60% to kick to everyone out is the number I see this morning. Sounds good to me.

 

[riser]

Due to popular demand, you can now use your Vacation/PTO and Sick time during the furlough to get through October into November. If you are actively using time on Nov. 1st, you will receive benefits for the entire month.

Found this link as well:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=925_1380591680

Which you know what.. this thread ended with kicking everyone out.. and apparently in 2010 they called for it as well.

 

[wanamingo]

So the gov is going to default on its debt Thursday.

Explain if im wrong on this, its almost 60 hours until the debt default. Before the senate can vote on a bill there has to be unanimous consent. If one Senator objects there is automatically 30 hours of debate, after those 30 hours another event happens where there is a similar consent vote, if anyone objects to holding a vote there is another 30 hours of debate. So once we hit the 60 hour mark Cruz can force a default (or something very close to it).

A super-majority can adjust the rules but who the frack knows how long it will take.

 

[chunkymonster]

So the gov is going to default on its debt Thursday.

First, the government can not default on the debt, it is a Constitutional requirement for the government to pay the debt, see the 14th Amendment. Second, the IRS collects over a Trillion dollars in tax revenue per year and the interest on the debt is only $400+ Billion per year. There is (literally) no financial reason for the government to default on the debt as there is plenty of revenue to meet the countries Constitutional requirements. Third, it is the responsibility of the Executive Branch to ensure the debt is paid. So, if the government DOES default on the debt, it will be because the President FAILED (NOT Congress!) to carry out his Constitutional duty to pay the debt.

In addition, the notion that if the government defaults on paying the debt that it will disrupt the stock market and/or world markets is also a total complete line of bullshit. If that were so, the stock market would already be tanking for fear of a possible default, but it isn't because the Fed is still engaged in quantitative easing. If a possible default were going to affect the world market, the nations that hold America's debt would be selling off the dollar, which they are not.

All this doomsday rhetoric about the government defaulting on the debt is the same line of crap that we were sold before quantitative easing was put in place. And, if anything QE has worked to curb government spending and also resulted in a slowdown in the increase in the debt.

Explain if im wrong on this, its almost 60 hours until the debt default. Before the senate can vote on a bill there has to be unanimous consent. If one Senator objects there is automatically 30 hours of debate, after those 30 hours another event happens where there is a similar consent vote, if anyone objects to holding a vote there is another 30 hours of debate. So once we hit the 60 hour mark Cruz can force a default (or something very close to it).

From a timeline perspective, you are correct. But you are wrong for placing any blame on the House or Senate if the government does default for the reasons above.

A super-majority can adjust the rules but who the frack knows how long it will take.

By all the latest reports, the Senate is working on a compromised budget plan. Whether the House buys into the plan is another story altogether. Most likely what will happen is Congress will kick the can down the road until early 2014 when the Congress and the President will put us all through this same demagoguery and fear mongering again.

I'm getting tired with all this crap, all incumbents need to be voted out; especially Reid, Pelosi, McCain, Burbin, Graham, Feinstein, and McConnell.

Apologize for ranting....

 

[riser]

So the gov is going to default on its debt Thursday.

Explain if im wrong on this, its almost 60 hours until the debt default. Before the senate can vote on a bill there has to be unanimous consent. If one Senator objects there is automatically 30 hours of debate, after those 30 hours another event happens where there is a similar consent vote, if anyone objects to holding a vote there is another 30 hours of debate. So once we hit the 60 hour mark Cruz can force a default (or something very close to it).

A super-majority can adjust the rules but who the frack knows how long it will take.

It boils down to not bringing up votes for the sake of voting. It comes down to bringing up something that everyone will vote on. The Senate is currently working on their revised bill, which once they approve, it will be sent down to the House.

We're at this point:

House brings up bill, votes on it.
It is sent to the Senate to vote on and/or make amendments.
..If amended, it goes back to the House to approve and/or amend.
..if not amended, voted and accepted, it becomes law.
House votes on the amended bill, either makes changes or approves.
..If approved, it goes back to the senate and is made law.
..if amended, more debates, back to senate to amend, etc.

The house has sent 3 bills up.

Apparently Companies and Unions are receiving a 1 year delay in the mandate. Only fair to make it equal to the individual; either it goes into effect for everyone, or for no one for 1 year.

 

[Reynod]

News flash ... its all over.

The world can now take a short recess ...

Please do not post any further news from the US for the rest of the month as your Centre of Attention Quota has been exceeded.

 

[wanamingo]

Might as well leave this thread open, well all be back here in 3 months.

 

[johnsonma]

Hopefully, in 3 months we won't have a small faction of hard-line house republicans try to tie the obamacare debate into the debt debate.

 

[riser]

News flash ... its all over.

The world can now take a short recess ...

Please do not post any further news from the US for the rest of the month as your Centre of Attention Quota has been exceeded.

Haha they just kicked the can down the road, again. They'll be having this discussion in January again.

You're not seeing it are you? They extended the debt enough to get through the holidays. Everything will start over again come January and all this crap will happen again.

Under Obama, this discussion happens twice a year because they can't accurate forecast how much money is being spent because they've never passed a budget.