Official Shutdown Thread

[riser]

Its has already been ruled constitutional. It has followed the progression set forth by the constitution. Obviously, you guys don't agree with it but saying it should be ruled unconstitutional accomplishes nothing.

I know the exchanges are based off income riser, that is what i was referring to when I said they use different criteria. I don't have an issue with this. Maybe it will be money pit, we will see.

Yes, it was ruled constitutional and as a tax, not a fee or benefit.
What I was saying is that if the private markets close up shop because of the ACA, then it would leave only the ACA place and it could be ruled as unconstitutional. The government would be mandating that you have to buy insurance from them - because the private market closed up.

 

[musical marv]

Watching this from the other side of the pond it all looks very strange!

Why does it look so strange to you may i ask?

 

[riser]

Oh yeah Rey, another note. The 800,000 workers.. they're busy putting up fences around national parks and privately owned properties.

We all in the government have been warned for over a year that this shutdown was likely coming. I lived it, we were warned and had a monthly email advising on it. Lots of people, including myself, wanted out because we knew it was going to happen. I worked in it, I saw what was happening and how the internal system worked.

Those 800,000 people are using their vacation and sick time right now. That's what our plan was going to be, you would use vacation/sick time to cover any furloughs. If it goes beyond 2 weeks, then issues pop up.

One last little secret Rey about all this. They're sent home. Still getting paid. Whaaat? Those companies signed a contract with the US Gov't which it has to follow. The gov't is very strict about legal agreements. Those companies are still getting paid whether or not the employee is working or not. If they agreed to billable hours, then they may not be getting paid. On contracts where it is a flat fee, they're getting paid.

ColGeek can provide some insight into the workers he had sent home on how they're coping. But in the end, we all knew it was coming. In fact, my contract stated that I needed to keep 2 years of income to live off should the government shut down.

2 years.

 

[USAFRet]

Oh yeah Rey, another note. The 800,000 workers.. they're busy putting up fences around national parks and privately owned properties.

We all in the government have been warned for over a year that this shutdown was likely coming. I lived it, we were warned and had a monthly email advising on it. Lots of people, including myself, wanted out because we knew it was going to happen. I worked in it, I saw what was happening and how the internal system worked.

Those 800,000 people are using their vacation and sick time right now. That's what our plan was going to be, you would use vacation/sick time to cover any furloughs. If it goes beyond 2 weeks, then issues pop up.

One last little secret Rey about all this. They're sent home. Still getting paid. Whaaat? Those companies signed a contract with the US Gov't which it has to follow. The gov't is very strict about legal agreements. Those companies are still getting paid whether or not the employee is working or not. If they agreed to billable hours, then they may not be getting paid. On contracts where it is a flat fee, they're getting paid.

ColGeek can provide some insight into the workers he had sent home on how they're coping. But in the end, we all knew it was coming. In fact, my contract stated that I needed to keep 2 years of income to live off should the government shut down.

2 years.

I don't know where you work, or for whom, but we (DoD GS employees) are specifically not allowed to use vacation or sick time to cover this, or the last, furlough.

Specifically, in writing.

 

[wanamingo]

Actually buddy, the "right" has passed multiple budgets putting those people back to work. The left keeps voting them down. The right doesn't want to pass new taxes onto the people.

Well riser you and I know thats a half truth, whats the point of passing a budget that defunds the ACA?

“House Republicans should pass a continuing resolution that funds government in its entirety–except Obamacare–and that explicitly prohibits spending any federal money, mandatory or discretionary, on Obamacare,“

Cruz

“We’re very excited,” said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.). “It’s exactly what we wanted, and we got it.”

Its also my understanding there is a bill that passed the house that can end this....we are just waiting on Boehner (heheh) to schedule a vote.

 

[USAFRet]

All furloughed federal workers are going to get back pay. They need to quit bitching and enjoy their F*****g vacation!!

You've seen this in writing? I haven't.

It may happen, it may not.

 

[johnsonma]

Its has already been ruled constitutional. It has followed the progression set forth by the constitution. Obviously, you guys don't agree with it but saying it should be ruled unconstitutional accomplishes nothing.

I know the exchanges are based off income riser, that is what i was referring to when I said they use different criteria. I don't have an issue with this. Maybe it will be money pit, we will see.

Yes, it was ruled constitutional and as a tax, not a fee or benefit.
What I was saying is that if the private markets close up shop because of the ACA, then it would leave only the ACA place and it could be ruled as unconstitutional. The government would be mandating that you have to buy insurance from them - because the private market closed up.

"If" and "When"

Sure, if the private markets go completely under your argument will be valid.

 

[Reynod]

Your country has been hyjacked by right wing white extremists ... but its ok ... they are just doing their job.

Its the opposite of what McCarthy was always most frightened of ... communism.

After all of the gazillions you guys spent keeping the threat f communism at bay ... you have been brought down by a bunch of rich white guys who don't want to pay their fair share of tax.

Sums it up nicely.

All with a strong does of ant-black racist rant.

I wonder what Beck is foaming at the mouth right now ... he must be having kittens on the TV.

Wonder if he will have an aneurism before the 17th?

 

[johnsonma]

Why don't house republicans just pass a temporary budget for 3-6 weeks and continue to work on the greater budget deal? Why does there have to be a shutdown? If you look at it from a logical point of view there is only one reason why they would want a shutdown. "Leverage". They are using the shutdown as leverage to get their way. Its as simple as that. The senate republicans know better but they can't control the radical conservatives in the house. Boehner is stuck between a rock and a hard place as well.

I hope the next few elections bring in some more reasonable house republicans. There will always be a need for a conservative point of view but there needs to be intelligence behind it, an example of what we don't need would be Cruz.

 

[Reynod]

No sane non-psychotic person speaking on this clip ... its Beck:

http://wonkette.com/530645/glenn-beck-exposes-obamas-sinister-plot-wwii-memorial-closure-first-step-toward-shooting-everyone-dead

Yep ... he has completely lost his mind.

What a plonker.

 

[USAFRet]

All furloughed federal workers are going to get back pay. They need to quit bitching and enjoy their F*****g vacation!!

You've seen this in writing? I haven't.

It may happen, it may not.

There is precedent to go by.

Yes, there is precedent.
But at this point we cannot definitively say "All furloughed federal workers are going to get back pay"

Until I see something in writing, and in my actual paycheck...it's all up in the air.

 

[johnsonma]

No sane non-psychotic person speaking on this clip ... its Beck:

http://wonkette.com/530645/glenn-beck-exposes-obamas-sinister-plot-wwii-memorial-closure-first-step-toward-shooting-everyone-dead

Yep ... he has completely lost his mind.

What a plonker.

Push-->Shove-->Shoot millions of people dead.

Wow. All from just closing off a memorial.

 

[dogman_1234]

Hopefully, Boehner rounds up everyone and increase the debt ceiling, plans a cont. resolution throughout 2013, and set forth a budget for all of 2014...the first in almost, what, 3 years counting?

 

[riser]

Oh yeah Rey, another note. The 800,000 workers.. they're busy putting up fences around national parks and privately owned properties.

We all in the government have been warned for over a year that this shutdown was likely coming. I lived it, we were warned and had a monthly email advising on it. Lots of people, including myself, wanted out because we knew it was going to happen. I worked in it, I saw what was happening and how the internal system worked.

Those 800,000 people are using their vacation and sick time right now. That's what our plan was going to be, you would use vacation/sick time to cover any furloughs. If it goes beyond 2 weeks, then issues pop up.

One last little secret Rey about all this. They're sent home. Still getting paid. Whaaat? Those companies signed a contract with the US Gov't which it has to follow. The gov't is very strict about legal agreements. Those companies are still getting paid whether or not the employee is working or not. If they agreed to billable hours, then they may not be getting paid. On contracts where it is a flat fee, they're getting paid.

ColGeek can provide some insight into the workers he had sent home on how they're coping. But in the end, we all knew it was coming. In fact, my contract stated that I needed to keep 2 years of income to live off should the government shut down.

2 years.

I don't know where you work, or for whom, but we (DoD GS employees) are specifically not allowed to use vacation or sick time to cover this, or the last, furlough.

Specifically, in writing.

DoE, each location has the rights to choose what is best for their workers. Often what happens is they're not reading into it enough to know that you're not allowed to use that time.. unless otherwise instructed by the facility. Fine print.

 

[riser]

Actually buddy, the "right" has passed multiple budgets putting those people back to work. The left keeps voting them down. The right doesn't want to pass new taxes onto the people.

Well riser you and I know thats a half truth, whats the point of passing a budget that defunds the ACA?

“House Republicans should pass a continuing resolution that funds government in its entirety–except Obamacare–and that explicitly prohibits spending any federal money, mandatory or discretionary, on Obamacare,“

Cruz

“We’re very excited,” said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.). “It’s exactly what we wanted, and we got it.”

Its also my understanding there is a bill that passed the house that can end this....we are just waiting on Boehner (heheh) to schedule a vote.

Pay attention:

They can't fund the ACA Exchanges. Why? Because the current Debt Ceiling doesn't allow enough borrowing to do so.

Now it's a catch 22. They can't pass a bill saying they're going to spend more than what we can borrow to pay debt. That actually could be argued as a violation.

Get prepared to see this thing drag on until the debt ceiling debate comes up again. It's cool, we've only spent an additional $1.7 trillion since January of this year. Gotta bump that credit line up some more.

 

[riser]

Why don't house republicans just pass a temporary budget for 3-6 weeks and continue to work on the greater budget deal? Why does there have to be a shutdown? If you look at it from a logical point of view there is only one reason why they would want a shutdown. "Leverage". They are using the shutdown as leverage to get their way. Its as simple as that. The senate republicans know better but they can't control the radical conservatives in the house. Boehner is stuck between a rock and a hard place as well.

I hope the next few elections bring in some more reasonable house republicans. There will always be a need for a conservative point of view but there needs to be intelligence behind it, an example of what we don't need would be Cruz.

I agree with the shutdown. I actually like it right now. It's fitting for the people to really know how poorly run our government currently is. People need to get pissed.

On another note, do you know anyone who has tried to sign up for the ACA?

Of all my staunch lefty friends who rant and rave about the ACA, not a single one has even tried to apply.. in fact, all of them have said they have no desire to sign up because their benefits are really good right now.

We're all trying to find someone who signed up.

 

[johnsonma]

Why don't house republicans just pass a temporary budget for 3-6 weeks and continue to work on the greater budget deal? Why does there have to be a shutdown? If you look at it from a logical point of view there is only one reason why they would want a shutdown. "Leverage". They are using the shutdown as leverage to get their way. Its as simple as that. The senate republicans know better but they can't control the radical conservatives in the house. Boehner is stuck between a rock and a hard place as well.

I hope the next few elections bring in some more reasonable house republicans. There will always be a need for a conservative point of view but there needs to be intelligence behind it, an example of what we don't need would be Cruz.

I agree with the shutdown. I actually like it right now. It's fitting for the people to really know how poorly run our government currently is. People need to get pissed.

On another note, do you know anyone who has tried to sign up for the ACA?

Of all my staunch lefty friends who rant and rave about the ACA, not a single one has even tried to apply.. in fact, all of them have said they have no desire to sign up because their benefits are really good right now.

We're all trying to find someone who signed up.

The only person I have met who is going to sign up is a former roommate who doesn't make very much and has a girlfriend that is unemployed.

Shutting down the government to prove our government is poorly run is a desperate excuse. You are punishing people to prove a point? Sorry, but I can't even begin to understand why you would say something like that.

 

[riser]

Why don't house republicans just pass a temporary budget for 3-6 weeks and continue to work on the greater budget deal? Why does there have to be a shutdown? If you look at it from a logical point of view there is only one reason why they would want a shutdown. "Leverage". They are using the shutdown as leverage to get their way. Its as simple as that. The senate republicans know better but they can't control the radical conservatives in the house. Boehner is stuck between a rock and a hard place as well.

I hope the next few elections bring in some more reasonable house republicans. There will always be a need for a conservative point of view but there needs to be intelligence behind it, an example of what we don't need would be Cruz.

I agree with the shutdown. I actually like it right now. It's fitting for the people to really know how poorly run our government currently is. People need to get pissed.

On another note, do you know anyone who has tried to sign up for the ACA?

Of all my staunch lefty friends who rant and rave about the ACA, not a single one has even tried to apply.. in fact, all of them have said they have no desire to sign up because their benefits are really good right now.

We're all trying to find someone who signed up.

The only person I have met who is going to sign up is a former roommate who doesn't make very much and has a girlfriend that is unemployed.

Shutting down the government to prove our government is poorly run is a desperate excuse. You are punishing people to prove a point? Sorry, but I can't even begin to understand why you would say something like that.

Democrats could have passed the House bill to keep the government running. They wouldn't be funding the ACA right now, but everything else instead. They have the option to work on funding the ACA separately by choose not to go that route.

How do you fund something that you have no idea what it will really cost in that first year?

 

[riser]

Why don't house republicans just pass a temporary budget for 3-6 weeks and continue to work on the greater budget deal? Why does there have to be a shutdown? If you look at it from a logical point of view there is only one reason why they would want a shutdown. "Leverage". They are using the shutdown as leverage to get their way. Its as simple as that. The senate republicans know better but they can't control the radical conservatives in the house. Boehner is stuck between a rock and a hard place as well.

I hope the next few elections bring in some more reasonable house republicans. There will always be a need for a conservative point of view but there needs to be intelligence behind it, an example of what we don't need would be Cruz.

House Republicans are the ones putting forth the bill to partially fund the gov't.

Here ya go:
http://washingtonexaminer.com/57-democrats-join-house-gop-to-fund-key-departments-programs/article/2536826

57 democrats break rank to support the republicans plan.

 

[musical marv]

The issue rises due to Ideology of the few, their money-backers, and their leather seats.

What needs to happen is both sides must come together, create a compromise budget for all of 2014, and when January 1, 2014 comes around, they can resume the shit-flinging contest one last year before the American people skin them alive one-by-one.

This next election will be a joyful one, I hope.

Both sides have to grow up!

 

[MU_Engineer]

Healthcare is a problem, its expensive and doesnt help everyone. This is a step in the right direction, the American people agree. Obama ran on the ACA and was voted in. The plan is based on another plan created by a very conservative think tank, it was implemented by the republican nominee for president in his state, it was found to be constitutional. But instead of trying to improve the plan the minority has decided to stop funding the government. Brilliant.

Obamacare was forced through in reconciliation Christmas Eve 2010 (which is actually not allowed) after bribing a couple of senators with hundreds of millions of dollars of pork for their states to vote for the bill, namely Mary Landreau (D-LA) and Ben Nelson (D-NE).

Obama ran on lies about Romney killing somebody and in calling people who did not vote for him being racist. Note that Obama had Hermann Cain character assassinated as well. Cain would have taken away Obama's most powerful weapon of race and would have been an actual conservative bringing logic to the debates. That would have likely resulted in Cain winning and the Democrats losing their ability to finish turning us into something dreamt up during a 1970s acid trip.

Romney for all of his involvement in RomneyCare at least appeared to try it the proper way (at the state level rather than the federal level) and saw that it was terrible. That's why he ran against it. Obamacare will turn into exactly what happened in Massachusetts. But we all ignore it because "it will be different this time because we are so much smarter." Yeah. Mmmm hmmm.

So far regarding the ACA, the turn out has been far lower than expected. Multiple issues and all, but like Cali 5 million hits on the site.. oh wait, only 645,000, and far less signed up.

On top of that, what you're having is a bunch of sick people or people without benefits signing up for cheap. I haven't talked to anyone who has received a better plan under the ACA than what they currently have. My lowest quote has been $629/month for 2. I pay $194 right now. Plus it doesn't cover as much as my current plan.

So who is signing up to offset the cost to provide cheap healthcare to sick people or low income earners?

Riser, it's folks like you and me. All of the talk is in getting the 26 to 45 year old age segment to sign up, especially the males. They have very little in healthcare costs but are now on the hook to pay many thousands a year to pay for the ones who rack up massive costs. Obamacare has essentially stripped out any price advantage to be had in being younger or healthier. If you are a 55 year old guy who eats four Big Macs a day washed down by a handle of McCormick's and three packs of cigarettes and has COPD, cirrhosis, diabetes, a few heart attacks, and a stroke, you pay the same as the 26 year old elite athlete. Ditto with women who pop out kid every 10-11 months with repeat C-sections on every one versus a healthy young man who has $0 in healthcare costs in an entire decade. That's why they had to force a mandatory minimum coverage and mandate coverage, else we'd be paying $40/month for "only if you get hit by a truck" catastrophic insurance and just pay a hundred bucks out of pocket the few times we did need to go to the doctor. That's not going to subsidize Fatty McDrinkensmoke or a woman with more parity than a 8-socket server.

I you trust the American Government, ask an American Indian about it before forming your opinion.

The currently living American Indians love the government and the Democrats especially as they pay them to sit at home unemployed (they have a >80% unemployment rate.) Who exactly do you think elected Tom Daschle, Democrat from western South Dakota, when South Dakota is one of the reddest states in the country?

 

[Reynod]

Your comments are bordering on racism my friend.

 

[MU_Engineer]

Your comments are bordering on racism my friend.

I believe you are talking about my last comment. It is not racist to point out facts. Go look at county by county election results for the past several congressional and presidential elections, go look at demographics by county, unemployment rate by county, and the various distribution of entitlement payments to various ethnic groups. All of these pieces of information are recorded by the government's various departments and available for public viewing. You can also find out likely voting data sorted by demographic groups from various polls as well.

If you really want to look at things that you would clearly consider "racist" but actually are not, the government also keeps track of various things like unemployment rate, incarceration rate, births out of wedlock, births to teen mothers, and a wide multitude of different health statistics sorted by race as well as sex, gender, income level, and a bunch of other things as well. The fact that we can't have an open conversation about certain topics in our society because they might make a certain group look bad is a big reason why those problems continue to persist.

 

[Reynod]

Its not about wiping out private insurance ... its about makign sure the poor can access a private insurance policy too ... isn't it?

 

[MU_Engineer]

True, now.

How many treaties and bargains struck were reneged on over how many years?

My tribe got lucky. They struck a bargain with Virginia centuries ago and have a nice chunk of land in the fertile tidewater to this day. Not all were so lucky though.

Bad things certainly did happen in the past, and the country as a whole is not proud of them. However what we are doing to "atone" for it is pretty harmful, too. It's essentially impossible to try to right some wrong that happened hundreds of years ago when the country is a vastly different one today and the people who were directly affected and the people who planned and carried out the actions are all long since deceased. This has been tried in many countries for many different circumstances and none of them have gone very well because it's simply impossible to do. The best way I have seen to handle such a situation is to acknowledge that something bad happened, apologize for it, and remember what happened so that it doesn't happen again in a different circumstance. Then you move on in order to heal the nation as a whole. Continuing to inflame divisions in the country is why we have the current situation where there are considerable divides between the various ethnic and racial groups in the country.

@Reynod
Obamacare is about "transforming" (his words, not mine) the nation's health care delivery system. The government would have simply subsidized poor people in getting insurance if all anybody wanted was for poor people to have insurance. That would have been a very short, simple bill where the only controversy would have been the cost of doing so. But the Obamacare bill is a massive, nearly 1000 page (single-spaced) piece of legislation that contains everything from electronic medical records mandates, changes to payment structures, mandates for what must be covered and for how much for insurance policies, mandates to provide or obtain health insurance, a lot of taxes and fees, as well as a lot of regulations, fines, and fees to be levied against hospitals and doctors for certain things to be determined later by the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services. The overall aim of the bill appears to be in giving the government the power over the healthcare system that a government in a single-payer system would have, but to not have to pay the full cost of it or bear the burden of being the bad guy rationer by making the insurance companies do the paying under the government's direction and forcing the doctors and hospitals to treat patients at a loss by monopolizing the market.