Old cpus questions.

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
I went to both links you posted. I didn't see a single case where the Celeron 1.4@100MHz FSB was faster than the 1467MHz Celeron with a 133MHz bus. The OCed Celeron was much faster with a better video card like the TI4200. Besides, 3Dmark and Sandra are synthetic... the only real world test was Quake3. EDIT: I noticed you said clock for clock... no matter, the test was probably mostly GPU bound. With the TI4200 the OCed Celeron was 12.8% faster than the stock 1.4GHz one. Thats better clock for clock.

Yes I wrote clock for clock. The subcontext of the thread was that the FSB makes this big difference when it does not. Even with the o'c Celeron on a 33% faster FSB, faster memory, and higher clock speed, it was only ~ 13% faster "sometimes" and even less difference much of the time. We can clearly see from this that FSB rate doesn't have nearly as much of an effect as core rate. The P3 coppermine hasn't a chance at being competitive at the vast majority of applications this system would be useful for.
There were not Tualatin celerons on the chart!!! We're talking about Tualatin celerons, and they're VERY diferent from the early Coppermine Celerons you mention (when you refer to 33% OC, you assume the FSB to go from 66 to 100), because:
1-They have a 100MHz FSB
2-Have 256K of L2 like anyPentium3s
3-Are built on better process.
 
Prison isn't so bad when you feel so good about what you did. On the other hand, I haven't had to act this way in public since my school mates grew up!

And now you want me to dig up MY OWN four year old data to prove my case? You don't think I can remember something so simple?

Running a Maxtor 20GB 7200RPM hard drive, a Radeon DDR (LE DDR TVO at standard DDR clock speed), 512MB RAM, I got the exact results I described in 3D Mark 2001, TMPEGenc VCD encode times, and a couple benchmarks that have faded into history. I remember which hardware I resold and which hardware I kept, and reselling was easy because I was a system supplier for a local store.

I don't even know why you're arguing this stuff, it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that a vast chunk of my personal experience comes from this specific topic.
 
I went to both links you posted. I didn't see a single case where the Celeron 1.4@100MHz FSB was faster than the 1467MHz Celeron with a 133MHz bus. The OCed Celeron was much faster with a better video card like the TI4200. Besides, 3Dmark and Sandra are synthetic... the only real world test was Quake3. EDIT: I noticed you said clock for clock... no matter, the test was probably mostly GPU bound. With the TI4200 the OCed Celeron was 12.8% faster than the stock 1.4GHz one. Thats better clock for clock.

Yes I wrote clock for clock. The subcontext of the thread was that the FSB makes this big difference when it does not. Even with the o'c Celeron on a 33% faster FSB, faster memory, and higher clock speed, it was only ~ 13% faster "sometimes" and even less difference much of the time. We can clearly see from this that FSB rate doesn't have nearly as much of an effect as core rate. The P3 coppermine hasn't a chance at being competitive at the vast majority of applications this system would be useful for. How do you come to this conclusion? From the 4 benchmarks you linked to? 3 of them were synthetic... I don't know how you can draw such a conclusion at all. BTW Don't you read your own links? From the overclockers.com link: P3 1.2 got 152.6FPS in quake3 the Celeron 1.2 got 121.6FPS. That is a 25.49% difference per clock.
 
There were not Tualatin celerons on the chart!!! We're talking about Tualatin celerons, and they're VERY diferent from the early Coppermine Celerons you mention (when you refer to 33% OC, you assume the FSB to go from 66 to 100), because:
1-They have a 100MHz FSB
2-Have 256K of L2 like anyPentium3s
3-Are built on better process.

Yes my links were for Tualatins, Coppermine celerons don't even go past 1.1GHz. Please get your facts straight.

I assume the FSB change that I mentioned and was linked, 100 to 133. All Celerons over 766MHz had 100MHz FSB or higher.
 
Prison isn't so bad when you feel so good about what you did. On the other hand, I haven't had to act this way in public since my school mates grew up!

Pity you didn't grow up too. Quit making excuses, you didn't have to act that way at all, your ego was challenged and some kind of mental defect caused you to think you were being called a liar.

There are millions of people able to converse and disagree without any mention of head masks. Something makes you think you are an exception but you are not.

You know you wouldn't be feeling good in prison, so you're a liar too.


And now you want me to dig up MY OWN four year old data to prove my case? You don't think I can remember something so simple?

It's not about your ego, not about what you think can or can't remember - it's about the actual FACTS, benchmarks available all over the internet.

It's also about this crazy idea you have that you must be the sole person who had a few Tualatins.

No I'm not interested in your 4 year old data, if it is valid it will be reproducible from online data. Naturally that data has to be keeping the CPU as the variable, not a different board chipset, different video, etc.

Running a Maxtor 20GB 7200RPM hard drive, a Radeon DDR (LE DDR TVO at standard DDR clock speed), 512MB RAM, I got the exact results I described in 3D Mark 2001, TMPEGenc VCD encode times, and a couple benchmarks that have faded into history. I remember which hardware I resold and which hardware I kept, and reselling was easy because I was a system supplier for a local store.

I think I already mentioned the video card needs to be newer for gaming performance, it is a reasonable assumption to make that a Radeon DDR is inappropriate for best gaming results on AGP platforms.

Regardless, this general concept you have is completely invalid. No amount of ego matters, systems sold or reselling or supplier, it all matters not the tiniest bit as it bears not on the actual performance of two CPUs compared.

If someone only has really old or basic, minimal parts such that the CPU isn't a bottleneck, naturally that will mean it didn't matter so much which CPU was chosen in some uses. We could say the same about trying to game on a P3 vs a Core2Duo if we had lowly enough PCI video card installed in both but obviously that would not make the two CPUs equal, it would be similarly wrong to claim they were, just on a larger scale.

The benchmarks are out there, I've never claimed a higher FSB doesn't help "some", only that it is a fairly small difference compared to clock rate. A P3 @ 1GHz may be in the same ballpark as a 1.1GHz, sometimes 1.2GHz Tualatin Celeron but not a 1.4Ghz.

I don't even know why you're arguing this stuff, it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that a vast chunk of my personal experience comes from this specific topic.

Your ego has gotten the better of you. There is no vague claim of experience that changes the factual data. There is also no evidence you are using Tualatins any more than some others do, if anything this chunk of experience signals problem recognition rather than resolution, a lower success rate.

I have done apples:apples comparisons on same platform, isolating the CPU. As always my results were checked against the existing information on the 'net. I didn't write Tualatin was faster as a random guess and no amount of ego on your part seems to do anything but interfere with understanding the data. People make false assumptions all the time, but some aren't so ego driven that they can't look back over that data and accumulate more data. Results have to be repeatable and focused on the right variable.

It is very odd that you are trying to take this "personal benchmark" argument mode, there have been so many benchmarks on the internet it would be a deliberate ignorance of the vast wealth of data available to consider only one isolated system(s) from one person instead of all that the modern internet provides.

It is quite probable that on a task like TMPEGenc encoding you will find higher FSB & Memory helps. That's not the same thing as assuming it helps enough to offet a 40% higher clocked CPU. I never claimed Tualatin Celeron and P3 performance was the same clock for clock but this is not a small clockrate difference and whatever advantage P3 had was already gone by a 1.2GHz Tualatin in most uses.

Note the following article were it states

Celeron repeats: models with the frequency over 667 MHz (a multiplier equal to 10 and more) didn't differ much in performance due to stoppages caused by a difference between the speed of the core and of the memory. But the current Celerons haven't yet reach this threshold ...

Check the benchmarks too, the only contender looking bad in the benchmarks (closest thing to a P3 1GHz performance level) is the older Coppermine 1.1GHz Celeron.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/celeron1200mhz/index.html
 
There are millions of people able to converse and disagree without any mention of head masks. Something makes you think you are an exception but you are not.

No, it's all you. Everyone who confronts me wrongly backs down in real life.

It's not about your ego, not about what you think can or can't remember - it's about the actual FACTS, benchmarks available all over the internet.

My facts are factual, I don't have to reprove them now, I presented them in this very forum at the time. Your mistake is that you suspect me of being as fallable as yourself.

It's also about this crazy idea you have that you must be the sole person who had a few Tualatins.

No, I'm just the most honest and relevant person.

No I'm not interested in your 4 year old data, if it is valid it will be reproducible from online data. Naturally that data has to be keeping the CPU as the variable, not a different board chipset, different video, etc.

Yeh, pretty weak of you since I already said all my data came from a P3B-F with 512MB SDRAM, a Radeon LE DDR TVO overclocked to Radeon DDR retail speed, and a Maxtor 20GB 7200RPM drive.

Running a Maxtor 20GB 7200RPM hard drive, a Radeon DDR (LE DDR TVO at standard DDR clock speed), 512MB RAM, I got the exact results I described in 3D Mark 2001, TMPEGenc VCD encode times, and a couple benchmarks that have faded into history. I remember which hardware I resold and which hardware I kept, and reselling was easy because I was a system supplier for a local store.

I think I already mentioned the video card needs to be newer for gaming performance, it is a reasonable assumption to make that a Radeon DDR is inappropriate for best gaming results on AGP platforms.

Regardless, this general concept you have is completely invalid.
You validated it for me.

No amount of ego matters
And it takes a strong man to admit he's wrong, I accept your appology.

[/quote]
 
Hey, so I finally clicked on your link, PIII 1.13 beats Celeron at 1.44 in 3D Mark 2001, Quake 3, 3DS Max, Expendable, and UT. The PIII 1.13 was a Tualatin in their benchmarks, no Coppermines, how nice.

PIII Tualatin had a tiny performance gain over the PIII Coppermine, clock for clock. Celeron got bigger gains from going to the new core.
 
There are millions of people able to converse and disagree without any mention of head masks. Something makes you think you are an exception but you are not.

No, it's all you. Everyone who confronts me wrongly backs down in real life.

You could claim you're the king of Spain if you like, but does this have anything to do with CPUs? Did it ever occur to you that if you are drifting off topic, a back down in a forum may be for a quite different reason, that there was nothing productive about continually arguing with someone who uses vague threats instead of on-topic facts?

Your purpose seems to be preservation and inflation of ego, computer tech is just the means. Others may instead be seeking to address the topic for the purpose of sharing info and once that information has been covered their goal is complete. They'll exit the thread after having provided that because it was not about you. If you would like a thread about how special you are instead of CPUs, do start one. How does this tie in to real life? You are getting a forum confused with real life.

There is nobody that acts the way you do and has "everyone" back down, even the baddest badass in the world will have to prove that through repeated victory for it to be anything but a delusion, and victory requires opponents that didn't back down. Truth is, people that act like you do end up in more fights, not less.

How does it feel to be caught in a lie?

I do apologize to the other participants in the forum for BOTH of our behaviors, as it was uncalled for, off topic, non-productive.

The productive thing to do now would be seeking benchmarks of your applications or near-matches, not dissimilar uses, not dissimilar systems, and not relying on vague claims of one person's use 4 years ago. That's WHY benchmarks exist in the first place.

Frankly I think this forum needs more moderation, both I and Crashman should have been warned about our behavior. Recognizing this, I have already said my piece and now exit this thread as there is nothing more I could write that supercedes seeking several independent benchmarks of equivalent systems and applications.
 
I'd tell your customer to heave that thing in the trashcan. I mean seriously, come on. You can get a Socket 754 2800 Sempron for 30 bucks for cryin' out loud. I won't even touch that crap anymore. Why further his/her suffering. Be glad it's dead.
 
Did it ever occur to you that if you are drifting off topic...

You mean by responding to you?

How does it feel to be caught in a lie?

You ridicule what you can't understand?

I do apologize to the other participants in the forum for BOTH of our behaviors, as it was uncalled for, off topic, non-productive.
We finally agree on something.

Frankly I think this forum needs more moderation, both I and Crashman should have been warned about our behavior.
:trophy:
 
No ******, you have no idea what YOU'RE talking about. Why don't you come to michigan with some hardware and a face mask. Trust me, you'll need the face mask. I OWNED ALL THIS HARDWARE IN 2002 AND BENCHMARKED ALL OF IT MYSELF AND YOU'RE MAKING A SERIOUS MISTAKE IF YOU THINK YOU CAN CALL ME A LIAR.

You're deluded about Tualatin performance. What did you think, nobody else has owned hardware a mere 4 years ago? Did you think nobody bothered to benchmark back then but you are a font of P3 knowledge?

Let me explain something to you plainly. You will end up being pretty badly treated if you don't learn how to act. I don't care what offends you even though I didn't consider you a liar, only incompetent.

As for serious mistake, how about calling you an idiot? I've been punched in the face, child, I don't melt. You obviously hide behind a keyboard because if you acted like that in public you'd already be unable to type, or in prison.

The Tualatin core was faster and colder then the Athlons of the time (same deal with previous P6 cpus from the pentium pro, pentium 2, pentium 3 etc), the Tualatin 1400 took on half the Wilamette core P4's. Intel scrapped the 1500 model and onward perhaps because of this, it was moved into the Pentium M line of cpus (basically a tualatin with double the cache and the qdr fsb), later upgraded to dothan (90nm), overclocked to a mere 2.5ghz, outperformed the high end desktop cpus in gaming while using half or less the power, and world records were broken many times by heavily overclocked pentium m's (at 4ghz, scored 20 seconds, matching a P4 at 7.4ghz and out of reach of any AMD), later moving to 65nm and dual cores under the name Core Duo, broke more records (twice the cores, same power and battery life etc), and now the Core 2 Duo, yet another generation.

You tell me how good the P6 design is 😉

AMD till this day has never actually beaten it in both efficency and performance :!:
 
We got it sorted. I was using 2002 hardware and benchmarks (and real applications that I actually needed the performance boost in) that rely heavily on memory bandwidth. He was refering to later tests with hardware that was basically CPU-limitted and relied very little on memory bandwidth.

But I knew that and baited him anyway. You see, in 2002 my system's most difficult task was video encoding in TMPGenc. TMPGenc used 100% of system RAM as quickly as it could cache the files to RAM. Celeron 1400 had dog-slow RAM access, PIII 1000EB had much faster RAM access, Celeron 1100@1466 had both CPU power and fast RAM access so that's what I ended up using.
 
We got it sorted. I was using 2002 hardware and benchmarks (and real applications that I actually needed the performance boost in) that rely heavily on memory bandwidth. He was refering to later tests with hardware that was basically CPU-limitted and relied very little on memory bandwidth.

But I knew that and baited him anyway. You see, in 2002 my system's most difficult task was video encoding in TMPGenc. TMPGenc used 100% of system RAM as quickly as it could cache the files to RAM. Celeron 1400 had dog-slow RAM access, PIII 1000EB had much faster RAM access, Celeron 1100@1466 had both CPU power and fast RAM access so that's what I ended up using.

i used to have a tualatin celeron 1.1a, it overclocked to 1.46ghz without any vcore, was rather quick too!!