News OpenAI was hacked, revealing internal secrets and raising national security concerns — year-old breach wasn't reported to the public

[Admin]

As hacker gains access to OpenAI's secrets, concerns rise that Chinese spies can do it too, leading to threats to national security.

OpenAI was hacked, revealing internal secrets and raising national security concerns — year-old breach wasn't reported to the public : Read more

 

[CmdrShepard]

Still, one could figure out that leaking them to Chinese specialists would help them advance their AI technologies faster.

If anyone actually bothered to read some research papers on AI, they would have known by now that many (if not most) authors of those research papers are Chinese nationals -- there's nothing to leak when they are the ones leading and publishing the AI research.

 

[WINTERLORD]

Although I'm a proponent of privacy an such I really think these big AI companies should do there own security however I think there should be a second line of defence severity an that the gov should help ensure that these companies are secure either through fisa or somthin similiar running in the background

 

[bit_user]

Also, OpenAI has established a Safety and Security Committee, including former NSA head Paul Nakasone, to address future risks.

When I read this part, I had a major flashback to the security team in the mini-series Devs (2020).

Devs (TV Mini Series 2020) ⭐ 7.6 | Drama, Mystery, Sci-Fi

51m | 16

www.imdb.com

OpenAI seems to have several parallels to the fictional company at the center of that series, other than the fact that they're dealing with quantum computing and not AI.

 

[bit_user]

If anyone actually bothered to read some research papers on AI, they would have known by now that many (if not most) authors of those research papers are Chinese nationals -- there's nothing to leak when they are the ones leading and publishing the AI research.

But I think OpenAI isn't publishing its research, so we don't know how far ahead of academia they are.

 

[jp7189]

If anyone actually bothered to read some research papers on AI, they would have known by now that many (if not most) authors of those research papers are Chinese nationals -- there's nothing to leak when they are the ones leading and publishing the AI research.

Quantity does not equal quality or meaningful advances. I'm not necessarily being specific to Chinese research, but with all the attention AI is getting, it's harder to find the jewels in a sea of meaningless regurgitation. Find a good repo on github today and tomorrow it'll have countless forks.

 

[zsydeepsky]

Quantity does not equal quality or meaningful advances. I'm not necessarily being specific to Chinese research, but with all the attention AI is getting, it's harder to find the jewels in a sea of meaningless regurgitation. Find a good repo on github today and tomorrow it'll have countless forks.

Quality-wise, the current best open-source LLM on huggingface leaderboard is Qwen2, which is from Chinese company Alibaba:
https://huggingface.co/spaces/open-llm-leaderboard/open_llm_leaderboard

 

[bit_user]

Quality-wise, the current best open-source LLM on huggingface leaderboard is Qwen2, which is from Chinese company Alibaba:
https://huggingface.co/spaces/open-llm-leaderboard/open_llm_leaderboard

I don't know if they still do, but they at least used to have some R&D offices (including for AI) in the USA.

 

[vanadiel007]

Just look at the other AI article: China has been filing way more patents for AI than anybody else over the past 10 years.
They are likely well ahead of other major players.

In my opinion, rather than seeing them as the enemy, we should see them as an ally. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can sanction them into "submission" as most things we use on a daily basis are made in China.
We have seen this during Covid, where the world came tumbling down on us because we could not produce the basic things we needed, and Covid prevented shipping them in like we usually do.

We should not make the same mistake with AI, and end up with a toddler AI version while China has the adult AI version.

And it's already happening with EV vehicles as we speak, where China can offer them for a quarter of the cost that the domestic producers are offering theirs for. We will be left behind technologically if we do not work with them.

 

[bit_user]

In my opinion, rather than seeing them as the enemy, we should see them as an ally.

Just because you're nice to someone doesn't make them a friend. Turning a blind eye to IP theft and trade practices like dumping doesn't mean they'll allow you to do the same. It's just seen as a sign of weakness and makes you a target ripe for exploitation.

We are fooling ourselves if we think we can sanction them into "submission"

That's not the only outcome. Every time there's an article about sanctions leaks, people seem all too ready to decry the sanctions as pointless and ineffective, but I doubt the sanctions would have so many detractors if they weren't actually having an effect.

most things we use on a daily basis are made in China.

It didn't used to be that way and it needn't be, in the future.

We should not make the same mistake with AI, and end up with a toddler AI version while China has the adult AI version.

It'll be another Tiktok situation, where they keep their crown jewels locked up tight and merely rent them to us - perhaps even in some impaired capacity. They won't be giving them away, or even selling them at a price worth paying.

And it's already happening with EV vehicles as we speak, where China can offer them for a quarter of the cost that the domestic producers are offering theirs for.

Because dumping and they sewed up the rare earth metals supply & processing chain.

 

[jp7189]

Quality-wise, the current best open-source LLM on huggingface leaderboard is Qwen2, which is from Chinese company Alibaba:
https://huggingface.co/spaces/open-llm-leaderboard/open_llm_leaderboard

Yes, indeed it is. I was disputing the "quantity" part of the original argument without disputing the country of origin part.

 

[bit_user]

Yes, indeed it is.

The key words in zsydeepsky's post are "open source". Models used by Google, OpenAI, Microsoft, Amazon, X, etc. aren't open source. Facebook is an exception, here.

 

[CmdrShepard]

Just because you're nice to someone doesn't make them a friend.

But openly calling that someone foe or enemy in news articles and public statements of government officials is much worse -- currently western countries aren't even pretending to be nice despite heavily depending on China trade and workforce.

That's not the only outcome. Every time there's an article about sanctions leaks, people seem all too ready to decry the sanctions as pointless and ineffective, but I doubt the sanctions would have so many detractors if they weren't actually having an effect.

For the sanctions to work you need to have more than one country agree to impose them.

USA is that one country rattling with sanctions for what, 7+ decades now, and everyone else who agrees to impose them is doing it so they themselves don't get sanctioned. Those countries "agreeing" with US aren't allies, they are controlled by fear of retaliation.

If you bother to check, you will find that the US has imposed two-thirds of the world's sanctions since the 1990s. The sheer amount of unilateral sanctions imposed worldwide clearly shows they are used as a coercion tool to get what US wants, not as a means to exact justice.

Sanctions therefore do have an effect, but on the regular people in sanctioned countries. They see them as foreign interference, bullying, and outright evil and you won't win them over like that, just like you wouldn't win over a dog by always punishing it.

Because dumping and they sewed up the rare earth metals supply & processing chain.

It's tit for tat at this point -- US is holding ASML by the gonads under the weak excuse of "it contains our tech" and not allowing China to purchase advanced EUV lithography machines. What's that if not trying to maintain a grip on world power, not by striving to be better, but by holding others down?

 

[zsydeepsky]

The key words in zsydeepsky's post are "open source". Models used by Google, OpenAI, Microsoft, Amazon, X, etc. aren't open source. Facebook is an exception, here.

well...if you need a leaderboard that includes non-open-source LLMs such as these:

Chatbot Arena

OpenLM.ai

openlm.ai

Coder EvalPlus

OpenLM.ai

openlm.ai

you can also find closed-source Chinese LLMs as well. name a few:
Yi
Deepseek
Qwen
GLM4

a lot of training work was completed on Huawei's Ascend 910B card...in fact, Huawei just announced their own AI models in HDC weeks ago, from billion-parameter to trillion-parameter scales (for different platforms). especially the largest trillion-parameters scale one, it dwarves all the models I mentioned above by scale, and Huawei claimed that it understands the world so well that they actually used it to generate all kinds of edge case videos to train their auto-drive AI.

so the keyword isn't limited to "open source", I mentioned that because huggingface ran their benchmarks only with models they can deploy on their servers, therefore their leaderboard was limited to open-source models.

 

[bit_user]

But openly calling that someone foe or enemy in news articles and public statements of government officials is much worse

News articles shouldn't be confused with government policy.

For the sanctions to work you need to have more than one country agree to impose them.

Not necessarily. If we're talking about something like photolithography equipment, then no because it's not fungible or a commodity of any sort.

Even if we're talking about AI training GPUs, what happens is that countries that have been acting as a conduit are themselves getting cut off.

Sanctions therefore do have an effect, but on the regular people in sanctioned countries.

Are regular people trying to fab 3D NAND and AI GPUs? I don't think so. Same goes for weapons.

 

[bit_user]

Huawei claimed that it understands the world so well that they actually used it to generate all kinds of edge case videos to train their auto-drive AI.

Nvidia has been using generative AI to make videos to train AI autopilot for several years.

 

[zsydeepsky]

Nvidia has been using generative AI to make videos to train AI autopilot for several years.

well, Huawei has actually launched its auto-drive AI to the market, like a year ago.

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

If anyone actually bothered to read some research papers on AI, they would have known by now that many (if not most) authors of those research papers are Chinese nationals -- there's nothing to leak when they are the ones leading and publishing the AI research.

The quality of that research is in question. Most Chinese AI patents have zero application or value.

The Chinese patent system is abused regularly by taking advantage of the “good faith” clause within patent law over the past decades.

Patents in China: Developments in 2024 and What’s to Come

Patent law and practice in China commenced a significant adjustment at the outset of 2024. China’s State Council released its latest revision of the Implementing Regulations of the Patent Law in December 2023, and at the same time, the CNIPA released its comprehensive revision of the Patent...

ipwatchdog.com

“One Chinese patent expert stated rather bluntly that only 10 percent of China’s patents have market value and that probably 90 percent of them are “trash.””

“Instead of being innovation-driven, most of China’s patent applications are driven by other motives, such as seeking government subsidy or job promotion, reputation building for individuals or universities and institutions, or acquiring certification as national high-tech enterprises.”

“Furthermore, except for invention patent, the other two types of patents in China (utility model and industrial design patents) are not calculated in the scope of “patent” at WIPO and in most countries. The high percentage of China’s filings and grants in these two kinds of patents did not add too much credit to China. Between 1985 and 2020, 81–89 percent of the patents granted in China belonged to utility model and industrial design, and only 11–19 percent of the granted domestic patents belong to invention patents, which is the key indicator to evaluate the level of science and innovation in a country. Most of the patents of utility model and design are of low quality and essentially useless.”

What Do China’s High Patent Numbers Really Mean?

Instead of being innovation-driven, most of China’s patent applications are driven by government subsidy, job promotion or reputation building.

www.cigionline.org

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

well, Huawei has actually launched its auto-drive AI to the market, like a year ago.

Auto-Drive AI is so flawed that it would never pass western self driving standards.

And the physical EV’s are flawed as well:

Australia just issued a recall for the first Chinese EV allowed to be sold in Australia for risk of electrocution.

https://www.vehiclerecalls.gov.au/recalls/rec-005843

Xiaomi’s new knockoff Porsche is riddled with serious issues including poor material quality and strength, faulty airbags, brake and handling issues, a high accident rate, corrosion issues under paint, among other things.
https://www.carbike360.com/news/critical-flaws-highlighted-in-xiaomi-su7

 

[CmdrShepard]

News articles shouldn't be confused with government policy.

News articles (including this one which called China a foe on a tech site) don't materialize out of thin air and western press nowadays seems to be heavily promoting the "foreign enemy" narrative.

There's that "freedom of press" angle you might want to call upon now to tell me that government agencies, officals and politicians don't influence the press, but they have already been caught directing Facebook, Twitte, etc and influencing what gets posted and what gets deleted.

Even without that kind of interference, what government officials and politicians say shapes the public opinion including that of the journalists who then parrot it even if it is unsubstantiated by evidence.

Not necessarily. If we're talking about something like photolithography equipment, then no because it's not fungible or a commodity of any sort.

Those particular sanctions despite being unilateral (i.e. imposed by the US alone) involve stepping on the sovereignity of Netherlands (and other countries whose products US wants to restrict) and telling their companies who they can and can't do business with. Just don't tell me that's ok with you and at least stop to think how you would feel about it if the sides were reversed.

Even if we're talking about AI training GPUs, what happens is that countries that have been acting as a conduit are themselves getting cut off.

Yes, and that's the problem with sanctions. They don't work unless you keep applying them to everyone who dares to disobey you. At one point they will all just shrug, gang up against you, and cut you off of everything and then you're going to be whining how it isn't fair.

Are regular people trying to fab 3D NAND and AI GPUs? I don't think so. Same goes for weapons.

Right, and Chinese gamers shouldn't have the right to own RTX 4090 or the latest Intel CPU or a fast M.2 drive? You think sanctions on AI don't affect consumer market? As for the weapons, the main death merchant seeding weapons around the planet (exploded and unexploded alike) is US anyway so look in your own backyard first if you want to restrict that.

 

[CmdrShepard]

(long diatribe on quality of Chinese patents and abuse of patent system)

And the same can't be said for US patent system, right? It doesn't grant BS patents all the time, and patents aren't used as a weapon by large corporations rutinely?

 

[CmdrShepard]

Auto-Drive AI is so flawed that it would never pass western self driving standards.

The strict regulations that allowed Uber self-driving car to kill a pedestrian?

And the physical EV’s are flawed as well

You mean like those Tesla cars which combust ?

Australia just issued a recall for the first Chinese EV allowed to be sold in Australia for risk of electrocution.

Better electrocuted than incinerated because of faulty battery disconnect.

As for reliability and quality issues:

Tesla Model 3 Fault Rate Is the Highest of Any Car: Report - Clean Energy Revolution

The high Tesla Model 3 fault rate can be attributed to Tesla's lack of definition of service intervals, among other factors.

cleanenergyrevolution.co

I wonder what those cars have in common? Oh right, they are also manufactured in China, but it's OK because US company is taking the money.

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

And the same can't be said for US patent system, right? It doesn't grant BS patents all the time, and patents aren't used as a weapon by large corporations rutinely?

Not really, The USPTO is very stringent with their acceptance criteria. There is no “good faith” clause to abuse.

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

The strict regulations that allowed Uber self-driving car to kill a pedestrian?

You mean like those Tesla cars which combust ?

Better electrocuted than incinerated because of faulty battery disconnect.

As for reliability and quality issues:

Tesla Model 3 Fault Rate Is the Highest of Any Car: Report - Clean Energy Revolution

The high Tesla Model 3 fault rate can be attributed to Tesla's lack of definition of service intervals, among other factors.

cleanenergyrevolution.co

I wonder what those cars have in common? Oh right, they are also manufactured in China, but it's OK because US company is taking the money.

Bahahaha, you honestly think the non-safety related maintenance issues of the model 3 in the article you cited is comparable to Chinese EVs notoriously burning for no reason and grenading their gear boxes at less than 2000 miles as well as all the problems with the Xiaomi?

“The two incidents are only two of 640 EVs that caught fire in the first quarter of this year. According to the Chinese Fire and Rescue Department of the Ministry Emergency Management’s data released on 3-April-2022, that means that there are seven EVs catching fire per day.”

Doesn’t look good at all for Chinese EVs.

https://www.wapcar.my/news/in-china...the-first-quarter-of-2022-up-32-percent-45371

By the way, at the bottom of the page of your cited article is another article about the model 3.

Tesla Model 3 Earns Stellar Reliability Ratings - Clean Energy Revolution

Discover the latest Bloomberg survey results, showing Tesla Model 3's remarkable rise in reliability.

cleanenergyrevolution.co

Also your article about the Tesla recall states 26 total teslas may have the faulty part. Not proportional at all to the entire fleet of Chinese EVs in Australia being recalled.

Finally, it seems the Chinese government is obfuscating the safety of their driverless systems and suppressing the reporting of fatalities:

“Computer-aided driving has official support and public acceptance, but state media seldom reports crashes or safety incidents, and online posts are censored.”

“Yet safety concerns persist in China. A news outlet in Hainan Province posted an article at the top of its website on June 7. The article described how a Xiaomi SU7 electric sedan with an advanced assisted-driving system seemed to have accelerated out of control, killing one person and injuring three. Within three hours the article was fourth in a national ranking of most-viewed news items.
Xiaomi soon issued a statement saying there was nothing wrong with the car that crashed.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/13/business/china-driverless-car-safety.html

Your narrative and the facts don’t seem to align.

 

[CmdrShepard]

Not really, The USPTO is very stringent with their acceptance criteria. There is no “good faith” clause to abuse.

That's BS and you know it.

There's nothing stringent and there's a bunch of articles over on Ars Technica which prove that USPTO is just rubber-stamping patents nowadays.

In short:

• The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) is funded by fees—and the agency gets more fees if it approves an application.
• Unlimited opportunities to refile rejected applications means sometimes granting a patent is the only way to get rid of a persistent applicant.
• Patent examiners are given less time to review patent applications as they gain seniority, leading to less thorough reviews.

As for EVs I posted a couple of examples but they aren't in any way the only ones -- you are free to search for more. Tesla has even a recall page where you can find how many cars of which model were recalled and what was the reason. I shall also remind you about Tesla car propensity to slam into red trucks or concrete dividers and kill their drivers.

That said, you clearly have an axe to grind against China, so I doubt any further comparisons I offer will be good enough proof for you that US products and patents aren't any better (not to mention US doesn't really have much domestic products left anyway).