Question PC randomly shuts down, even after swapping out almost every part ?

[KXtrea]

Just as the title says, my PC has been experiencing random shut downs for months, and I am desperately seeking support on how to trouble shoot the issue and go about solving it.
Any help is appreciated, thanks.

PC Specs
MOBO: X570-PLUS (WIFI) - BIOS version is 5021
GPU: 7800 XT
CPU: Ryzen 5700X3D
Cooler: Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 SE
PSU: Corsair RM750x

Everything was bought as brand new

Fixes ive tried:

• Replacing PSU, CPU, and RAM
• Updating graphics drivers - Manually
• Updating BIOS
• Tried to replicate a shutdown using OCCT (unsucessful)

Other information im not sure is useful or not:

>PC shuts off completely randomly whether im gaming or its idle

>I can cause the shut downs to happen on purpose by doing specific in game actions on certain games

>PC shut offs come in different forms including: Screen going black > PC shuts off > A couple seconds later PC turns back on , PC Shuts off > PC turns back on in less than a quarter of a second (MOST COMMON), PC Shuts off > PC doesnt turn back on until I press power button, PC Shuts off > PC doesnt turn back on > Power button does nothing and I have to cut off power to the PC then restore power to get it working , PC just restarts.

 

[Aeacus]

Replacing PSU

You listed RM750x. Is it the original PSU or replaced one? What make/model is the another PSU?

Also, were both PSUs bought new or used/refurbished?

 

[KXtrea]

You listed RM750x. Is it the original PSU or replaced one? What make/model is the another PSU?

Also, were both PSUs bought new or used/refurbished?

The RM750x is the current PSU which was bought brand new, the replaced PSU was an RM650x which was refurbished

 

[Aeacus]

Random reboots or shutdowns are mostly caused by 2 issues:
1. CPU/GPU overheats and to prevent any damage, system shuts down.
2. PSU fails to deliver enough power to the GPU or fails to keep smooth enough voltage for PC's operation.

First check your CPU/GPU temps, both at idle and under load. If temps are within reason then it's safe to assume that it's the PSU who is acting up.

Now, RMx is good quality PSU and unless your RM750x developed a fault, i would not look towards PSU issue.

So, what are your temps?
Also, power-off can be caused by MoBo VRMs as well. Another option is main electricity grid. For that, UPS mitigates main electricity grid issues.

 

[KXtrea]

Random reboots or shutdowns are mostly caused by 2 issues:
1. CPU/GPU overheats and to prevent any damage, system shuts down.
2. PSU fails to deliver enough power to the GPU or fails to keep smooth enough voltage for PC's operation.

First check your CPU/GPU temps, both at idle and under load. If temps are within reason then it's safe to assume that it's the PSU who is acting up.

Now, RMx is good quality PSU and unless your RM750x developed a fault, i would not look towards PSU issue.

So, what are your temps?
Also, power-off can be caused by MoBo VRMs as well. Another option is main electricity grid. For that, UPS mitigates main electricity grid issues.

Both my CPU and GPU were 45-50°C while idle
Under load my CPU was at 60°C and my GPU was 70°C

I also don't think its a PSU issue as the shutdowns continued even the same day I installed the PSU

What would be the next step?

 

[Aeacus]

Process of elimination.

There really isn't much when it comes to powering the PC.

High CPU/GPU temps can shut down the PC (thermal throttle). But since your temps are within reason, it isn't temps issue.

PSU would be another apparent suspect. But since you have good quality unit, it is hard to point the finger towards PSU. Especially since you tried with 2nd PSU as well (or course, using refurbished PSU isn't a good idea) but chances that both good quality PSUs would have the same fault, are slim. Also, PSU would be more of a suspect when PC powers off during heavier load (e.g gaming). But since your PC powers off even when idle, it is very difficult to blame it on PSU.

Next step of it would be main electricity grid.
Speaking of it, did you start to experience power-off issues as soon as you got your new PC? Or did the power issues start at some time later?

For electricity grid issues, only fix is UPS. E.g line-interactive topology, true/pure sine wave, ~1300VA/750W UPS.
Electricity grid can have so short black outs that you, yourself, can not even register. RM750x 2021 version has hold-up time of 26.6ms. Meaning that when there is power loss with duration of up to 26.6ms, PSU can keep itself and rest of the PC running. But if blackout is longer, e.g 50ms, then PSU powers off and kills power to the PC as well.
To get an idea how short of a time 26.6ms is, 1 second = 1000ms. Average human reaction time is 250ms, with training, 190-200ms. So, when there is a blackout that is only 50ms, you can't even register it happening. But PSU can. Hence why use UPS.

Due to such seemingly invisible blackouts, among other reasons, both of my PCs are backed up by the UPS as well (one UPS per PC).

If you're interested in UPSes, i can post more info about those with my next reply. But do note that good quality UPS costs quite a bit.

Then, there's also MoBo VRMs (Voltage Regulation Modules). It has rare to see MoBo VRMs to act up. Still, possibility remains. Sadly, with MoBo VRMs, only fix is MoBo replacement.


It is difficult to tell who the culprit is. 🤔 All the symptoms point towards either high thermals or bad PSU. But PC powering off on idle, throws a curveball into the mix, pointing towards main electricity grid issue (or rarely, MoBo VRMs).

Personally, i'd try with 3rd, good quality, known to work PSU. Different brand one. E.g Seasonic or Super Flower. While avoiding used/refurbished PSUs.
3rd time is the charm and when issue isn't still fixed even with 3rd, good quality PSU (e.g Seasonic Focus or Super Flower Leadex), then i'd look into buying an UPS.

Oh, a good test to try:
Haul your PC to your friend's/relative place and look if you experience power-offs there as well. If not and everything works fine, even under heaviest loads, then something is wrong with the wiring at your home. Then, UPS is the way to go.

 

[KXtrea]

Thank you so much for the detailed response, I do now heavily suspect that the electricity grid is the culprit, I HAD been experiencing random shut downs even when I first built this PC, hell even with my pre built from a few years ago I had encountered a number of random shut downs.

Do you think that the frequency of the shut offs having substantially increased over the past month could potentially rule out a UPS being a solution? If not, I would greatly appreciate more info on UPSes.

 

[Aeacus]

Do you think that the frequency of the shut offs having substantially increased over the past month could potentially rule out a UPS being a solution?

No. If anything, it makes UPS even more likely to have.

Electricity grid issues, when becoming more frequent, would indicate higher load on the grid itself (either in your neighborhood or city/country wide). And with higher load on the grid - more issues since electricity in the grid is finite. Power surges, brownouts, blackouts etc would only become more frequent.

If not, I would greatly appreciate more info on UPSes.

In my opinion, every PC should have an UPS.

UPSes can output 3 different kinds of waveform:
1. square wave - cheapest of the three. ONLY good for robust hardware, like power generators and motors.
2. simulated sine wave (aka stepped-approximated sine wave) - mediocre price. Good for most home appliances (e.g fridge, washing machine, lights).
3. true/pure sine wave - high price. It is the same as you get out of the wall socket. ONLY waveform good for sensitive electronics, like medical equipment, TVs, PC PSUs.

So, you want to have true/pure sine wave UPS. Simulated sine wave UPS may also work, but it may not. More of that below;


When looking for an UPS, there are 2 things to look out:
1. Output waveform (square wave, simulated sine wave and true/pure sine wave)
2. Design (stand-by, line-interactive and online)

From here you can read about the differences between output waveform,
link: https://suvastika.com/why-choose-a-sinewave-inverter-ups/

And here are explanations about the UPS design,
link: https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1272971

Waveform and design
For PCs, line-interactive UPS would be more than enough since PSUs can easily handle the 2ms to 5ms transfer time of line-interactive UPS.
As far as output waveform goes, true/pure sine wave UPS is best used. While simulated sine wave UPSes are cheaper than true/pure sine wave UPSes, PSUs with Active PFC aren't compatible with simulated sine wave. You might get simulated sine wave UPS running with Active PFC PSU but there can be some major issues. Here's what, how and why.

How do you know which PSUs have Active PFC and which ones don't?
Simple, every PSU that has 80+ certification (e.g 80+ Bronze or 80+ Gold) has Active PFC.

What is Active PFC?
Further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor#Power_factor_correction_(PFC)_in_non-linear_loads

What can happen when using simulated sine wave UPS with Active PFC PSU?
When simulated sine wave UPS switches over to the battery power, one of 3 things can happen:
1. UPS displays error resulting PC to shut down immediately.
2. UPS shuts down resulting PC to shut down immediately.
3. UPS switches to battery power resulting PC to power off from UPS (PC stays on).

Why it happens?
Simulated sine wave UPS produces a zero output state during the phase change cycle resulting in a power “gap”. This gap may cause power interruption for active PFC PSUs when switching from AC power output to simulated sine wave output (battery mode).

What to do next?
As stated above, your PC can run off from simulated sine wave UPS but be prepared when you face issues with it. When issues do rise, your best bet would be returning the simulated sine wave UPS and getting true/pure sine wave UPS. Or you can go with true/pure sine wave UPS off the bat.

Wattage
As far as UPS wattage goes, you need to consider the power draw of your PC and monitors. Maybe speakers and wi-fi router too if you plan to plug those into the UPS as well. Though, printers, scanners and other such hardware (full list on your UPS manual) don't plug to the UPS since their startup power draw is way too much for UPS to handle and you can fry your UPS.

Taking PSU's max wattage as a baseline is good idea since it will give your UPS more headroom and you can get longer runtime out of your UPS. Since your PSU is 750W, at least one monitor is added on top of it. Depending on the monitor size, they use between 23W to 52W. Wi-fi routers don't consume much power. For example, my Cisco EPC3940L consumes 12V at 3A which means 36W.

Good UPS brands to go for are CyberPower, TrippLite and APC. While there are other UPS brands as well, those three are the best out there.
Note: The more powerful UPS you have, the longer UPS can keep your PC running before it's battery is empty.

To suggest an UPS for you, i need to know your monitor make & model (or part number) + any other piece of hardware make & model you're planning to plug into UPS. Also, i need to know your location (e.g USA, Germany, Italy, Australia etc) so i can suggest UPS with correct power sockets.

 

[KXtrea]

Very insightful information, I massively appreciate it.

My monitor is a Gigabyte M27Q and im in West USA, I dont plan on plugging in any other hardware to the UPS other than the PC and monitor either.

 

[Aeacus]

Gigabyte M27Q

That's 58W monitor,
specs: https://www.gigabyte.com/Monitor/M27Q-rev-10/sp#sp

With 750W PSU and 58W monitor, total would be 808W.

UPS wise, good option is:
CyberPower CP1350PFCLCD (1350VA/880W, line-interactive, true/pure sine wave) UPS;
specs: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/pfc-sinewave/cp1350pfclcd/#tab-additional_information
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP1500PFCLCD-Sinewave-Outlets-Mini-Tower/dp/B00429N19M

It has NEMA 5-15R sockets that are common in USA.
Runtime wise, 800W load lasts for 2 mins.
But realistically, your PC's max load would be ~500W (~550W with monitor) and that gives you 6 mins of runtime.
And when your PC is idle (e.g web browsing), it should consume ~200W, making UPS runtime during blackout 27 mins.

UPS'es idea is to close and save your progress and then safely shut down your PC, when blackout appears. Rather than you loosing on an instant whatever you were working with.

This was actually the main reason why i bought UPSes for our builds as well. While blackouts are rare where we live, last blackout, before having UPS, costed me 2h worth of work and that was it for me.
Did my research and bought two CyberPower CP1300EPFCLCD (1300VA/780W, true/pure sine wave, line-interactive) UPSes,
specs: https://www.cyberpower.com/hk/en/product/sku/CP1300EPFCLCD

The UPS i suggested for you, is actually the successor model of what i have.
My UPSes are 7 years old as of now. Still going strong and catching even the shortest blackouts that i didn't realize were happening.

 

[PassMark]

I can cause the shut downs to happen on purpose by doing specific in game actions on certain games

This doesn't sound like a mains power supply issue. More likely GPU or motherboard.

 

[Aeacus]

This doesn't sound like a mains power supply issue. More likely GPU or motherboard.

But how do you explain PC shutting off when idle?

Also the fact that OP had the same issue with older, completely different PC.

 

[KXtrea]

That's 58W monitor,
specs: https://www.gigabyte.com/Monitor/M27Q-rev-10/sp#sp

With 750W PSU and 58W monitor, total would be 808W.

UPS wise, good option is:
CyberPower CP1350PFCLCD (1350VA/880W, line-interactive, true/pure sine wave) UPS;
specs: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/pfc-sinewave/cp1350pfclcd/#tab-additional_information
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP1500PFCLCD-Sinewave-Outlets-Mini-Tower/dp/B00429N19M

It has NEMA 5-15R sockets that are common in USA.
Runtime wise, 800W load lasts for 2 mins.
But realistically, your PC's max load would be ~500W (~550W with monitor) and that gives you 6 mins of runtime.
And when your PC is idle (e.g web browsing), it should consume ~200W, making UPS runtime during blackout 27 mins.

UPS'es idea is to close and save your progress and then safely shut down your PC, when blackout appears. Rather than you loosing on an instant whatever you were working with.

This was actually the main reason why i bought UPSes for our builds as well. While blackouts are rare where we live, last blackout, before having UPS, costed me 2h worth of work and that was it for me.
Did my research and bought two CyberPower CP1300EPFCLCD (1300VA/780W, true/pure sine wave, line-interactive) UPSes,
specs: https://www.cyberpower.com/hk/en/product/sku/CP1300EPFCLCD

The UPS i suggested for you, is actually the successor model of what i have.
My UPSes are 7 years old as of now. Still going strong and catching even the shortest blackouts that i didn't realize were happening.

Thank you very much, Im relieved its not as expensive as I thought it might be

This doesn't sound like a mains power supply issue. More likely GPU or motherboard.

That being said, this guy has brought up a detail that I overlooked and completely forgot about. If this was an issue with my electricity grid, it doesn't explain how I'm capable of forcing shutdowns through specific titles (at least I think it doesn't).

I have done some research on random shut downs on reddit threads and I've seen a number of people describing very similar symptoms I am facing, noting that their issue was fixed upon getting a new MOBO and in other cases a new GPU

Also the fact that OP had the same issue with older, completely different PC.

To be fair, those shutdowns occurred probably no more than 10 times over the course of a year and a half, vs the 40+ times ive had it happen to me over the past year with my current build. The older PC was also very crappy and its not unplausible that the shutdowns could have been related to other things such as poor thermals.


Anyhow, I was positive a UPS would be the solution to my shutdowns but now I'm unsure about that.

 

[Aeacus]

Anyhow, I was positive a UPS would be the solution to my shutdowns but now I'm unsure about that.

Since your shut down symptoms are pointing in several different directions, it is difficult to point out just one culprit. Could be that there are several culprits, which all combined lead the same outcome - shut down.

MoBo wise, VRM is one option. Replace MoBo and you may reduce the amount of shut downs. Maybe even fix the "on demand" shut downs that you can reproduce. But shut downs on idle could remain, which could be due to main electricity grid.

Haven't heard of GPU being the culprit for shut downs, other than high thermals or PSU that can't keep up with GPU's power demands (including transient power spikes).
On one instance, you have overheating GPU. On another instance, you have weak or faulty PSU.

Still, UPS is great to have and can keep your PC safe from any dangers that may come from main electricity grid. A good investment.

 

[KXtrea]

Could be that there are several culprits, which all combined lead the same outcome - shut down.

This could be it, I've just tested the PC at my friend's place for a couple hours and would you know it the random shutoffs stopped, at least for the 2 hours I spent testing that is (normally id have several shut offs). However, It didn't solve the shutdowns caused by specific games, which ill have to look into further.

So I guess what i'll do now is get that UPS you recommended me, and possibly look into replacing my mobo in the near the future, does this sound like the right course of action? I'm very content as long as the random shut offs go away.

 

[Aeacus]

So I guess what i'll do now is get that UPS you recommended me, and possibly look into replacing my mobo in the near the future, does this sound like the right course of action?

UPS - yes.

MoBo - i'm unsure about.
If possible, do try with 3rd, known to work, good quality PSU. To rule out PSU issue once and for all. Since when PC shuts down during heavy load (e.g gaming), 90% of the times, it is PSU issue.
You could try with 2nd GPU as well (e.g borrow it) and look if shut downs during load go away.

MoBo VRMs being an issue, as i've said above, is rare. And replacing MoBo is one tedious thing to do. Still, after process of elimination and when 3rd PSU and 2nd GPU doesn't provide any solution, it essentially comes down to MoBo.

 

[digitaldata77]

Maybe consider a 1000 Watt + PSU for your PC as it will allow for future upgrades and provide sufficient power and headroom. The PSU is a critical part of your system build and should be considered for the TOTAL power requirement demands of your complete system build. So that you may enjoy the performance of your PC rather than spending time with diagnostics and issues. Just a suggestion from an Old School Gamer and PC Builder. All The Best And a successful result.