PCs out of Balance - Need some Help

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Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Jeff Goslin said

> Which implies that you believe only a fool would lay money on that
> sort of bet? Which further implies that you do not have the
> confidence to differentiate two sets of objects, those sets comprised
> entirely of ONLY eggs and ONLY berries? If you had been assured that
> a box contained only two general items, berries and eggs, you do not
> believe that you could sort them with 100% accuracy into their
> respective groups? That's pretty sad, dude.

Blah blah blah. Jeff you're still demonstrating that you haven't read what
I wrote, or that if you did read it, that it's failed to penetrate the
solid defenses around your brain.

Perhaps if you did read you wouldn't come to the stupid conclusions that
you do. That's the sad thing, dude.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere

 

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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:48:30 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:6sta61lr71vlvp6mrkkonhcjcuqdcfll88@4ax.com...
>> Jeff apparently doesn't believe in retconning.
>
>"Retconning"? Not familiar with the term. A quick google search say that
>it's "Retroactive Continuity", claiming that something always was true.

Strange then, how you replied to an earlier post using that very phrase.

>To be honest with you, I would have thought that such an obvious version of
>reality shifting would be considered abhorent by the "good DM's" in the
>crowd.

It doesn't have to be so obvious. Rewriting the history of the world isn't
so great, even if it does sometimes have to occur, but usually this is more
subtle. Some annoying NPC who was originally going to be a bit player
turning into a major villian. A handful of rageberries actually being eggs
of some kind, that sort of thing.

> In more than one instance, my suggestions that fall in line with a
>version of "retconning" have always been deemed bad DMing, apparantly only
>because they are a version of Rule Zero, essentially.

No, because they tend to be piss-poor ideas. No concept is perfect,
implementation matters.

 

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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:29:26 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"Robert Singers" <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns963E9AFC87285rsingers@IP-Hidden...
>> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Jeff Goslin said
>>
>> >> Between *every* berry and *every* egg, with 100% certainty?
>> >> Hubristic much?
>> >
>> > Let's just say that if I were a betting man, I would lay pretty good
>> > odds on me figuring out which of a variety of "objects" were eggs and
>> > which were berries, after examination and consumption.
>>
>> Yes indeed, that's why there are truisms like "A fool and his money are
>> soon parted".
>
>Which implies that you believe only a fool would lay money on that sort of
>bet?

No, it implies that he believes you are a fool.

 

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Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnd6b6mr.45j.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
>> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Blackberry is great. Boysenberry is a bit sweeter, and a bit less
>>> sour, as I recall.
>>
>> I prefer them a bit more tart. Not actually *sour*, but I do try to
>> pick blackberries before they're fully ripe. Black but still firm, and
>> I don't ensure that there's *no* red on them. They're also better for
>> jam that way.
>
> Agreed. Still, Boysenberry syrup is nice.

Never had it. I'm from Canada, we have maple syrup.

Or so I'm told. My wife guards it jealously

>> Yeah, these are great apples. Eating them is literally 'take a bite,
>> chew three times, swallow juice, finish chewing, swallow rest'.
>
> Yum.

Yeah.

>> I even got a plum off one of my trees last year. A plum tree,
>> obviously. I'm hoping for more this year. I'm also hoping for more
>> cherries this year than I got last year.
>>
>> (Just so you know: 2 pear, 2 plum, 2 cherry, 2 hazelnut, 1 walnut, six
>> apple. Cherries and two apples producing, rest are only a few years old
>> now... may get *some* off them this year, but don't expect much.)
>
> You have a regular orchard going on, don't you?

I'm working on it. I've even considered clearing some more property
*just* to plant fruit trees on. The bits I've got cleared right now
don't really have good soil for it -- too much clay, for most of it.
The trees I've got are all in a long line down my property... the older
apples (and 'new' pear trees) are in the swale that handles the runoff
from up the mountain in the winter -- have to water them in summer), the
others are along a ditch that carries other runoff from my neighbor.
Both parts have great soil.

Actually, I lie. I've got a nice clearing I could probably plant in,
but I don't want to. I want to keep it clear as an 'activity area' --
play soccer with the kids, camp outs, set up a pavilion for a bigass
party, that sort of thing.

OTOH... I've got another clearing near it that isn't quite as nice (or
as flat); I could probably plant some there. I may be filling that
area, though. If I had the money I might even consider putting a pool
in... though that'd be silly given that the lake is only about half a
mile away. Quarter mile, if I didn't follow the road.

In any case, I don't think I'll clear more property right now, for
several reasons.

1. I can't afford to right now, and may be moving in a couple of years.
I'm *not* going through that for someone else's benefit.
2. I don't want *more* grass to cut.
3. I don't really want to run that much fencing (I wouldn't need to just
for clearing, but if I put in an orchard, that many young, tender
trees just scream for deer)
4. I like having a nice, treed buffer between my place and the
subdivision... half the back fenceline is with a biggish lot, the
other half is against a subdivision. The trees make it quieter and
more private.
5. I like having the trees there, they help keep things cool in summer
6. Once I get all the deadfall of the last few years cleaned up, it'll
be a nifty place for the kids to play. I've taken both of them back
there to walk around, play a bit; they've both enjoyed it.
7. It's peaceful back there. A clearing can be peaceful too, but
clearing that area would probably change the stream to a ditch, which
would be disappointing.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:kekb619si21q813mp1a6gs7r68cm7nn8e7@4ax.com...
> >"Retconning"? Not familiar with the term. A quick google search say
that
> >it's "Retroactive Continuity", claiming that something always was true.
>
> Strange then, how you replied to an earlier post using that very phrase.

If I did(I don't recall, but I may have), it was likely in some sort of
obvious context. Certainly *I* have never used the term before, but it's
possible it was in a post I replied to.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Varl" <bsmith@premier1.net> wrote in message
news😱pspijf4mfzr3c41@barry-m8qxtvis1...
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:06:40 GMT, Michael Scott Brown
> > MSB's intent is very clear - he's explained his motives and modus
> > operandi many times. These do not, however, include bolstering an
argument
> > by discrediting the speaker. We humiliate the speaker *because* of
their
> > choice to make an easily discredited argument.
>
> We? Why do both of you occasionally refer to yourselves in the third
> person? 😵

Psst. Royal We.

-The King

 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:Snm9e.9110$yq6.1230@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> "Varl" <bsmith@premier1.net> wrote in message
> news😱pspijf4mfzr3c41@barry-m8qxtvis1...
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:06:40 GMT, Michael Scott Brown
>> > MSB's intent is very clear - he's explained his motives and modus
>> > operandi many times. These do not, however, include bolstering an
> argument
>> > by discrediting the speaker. We humiliate the speaker *because* of
> their
>> > choice to make an easily discredited argument.
>>
>> We? Why do both of you occasionally refer to yourselves in the third
>> person? 😵
>
> Psst. Royal We.

Insert inbreeding joke here.

 

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"tussock" <scrub@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:42659cd1@clear.net.nz...
> >>You have repeatedly claimed that courtrooms are different, but you have
> >>not established that the difference is substantial or relevant. Until
> >>you do, you are guilty of the genitive fallacy.
>
> Ad hominem is used to refer to _any personal attack_ in certain
> modern texts, look it up. That's plainly a different meaning to it's use
> as a description of a particular set of logical fallacies.

Bradd is having something of a love affair with equivocation fallacy.

-Michael

 

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Bradd wrote:
>> He misses the point, which is that ad hominem is a fallacy because it
>> is prejudicial and worthless, not because it is illogical.

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> This is blatantly incorrect.

How would you know, juicebag?

> The common form of ad hominem fallacy is *most certainly* illogical
> (and therefore worthless).

That does not contradict what I wrote.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:anta61hr7m9iefob0saltpoloum170ak72@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:46:48 +0100, "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> scribed
into
> the ether:
>
> >
> >"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:wtednfgXPI5cu_jfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
> >>
> >> "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> wrote in message
> >> news:g-udnWeYW56xIfnfRVnytw@pipex.net...
> >>
> >> > Never heard of them (Boisenberries)!
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boysenberry
> >
> >Californian eh? Nothing good ever came out of or lived in California!
>
> You've never had a pie made from them...yum.

Not that I pay special attention but I'm not even sure you can by them on
this side of the Atlantic (outside of speciality places in all
likelihood).

 

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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:47:22 +0100, "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> scribed into
the ether:

>
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:anta61hr7m9iefob0saltpoloum170ak72@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:46:48 +0100, "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> scribed
>into
>> the ether:
>>
>> >
>> >"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:wtednfgXPI5cu_jfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
>> >>
>> >> "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:g-udnWeYW56xIfnfRVnytw@pipex.net...
>> >>
>> >> > Never heard of them (Boisenberries)!
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boysenberry
>> >
>> >Californian eh? Nothing good ever came out of or lived in California!
>>
>> You've never had a pie made from them...yum.
>
>Not that I pay special attention but I'm not even sure you can by them on
>this side of the Atlantic (outside of speciality places in all
>likelihood).

Considering the horrors of most european food, this comes as no surprise

Couldn't even get a decent pizza in Rome. 5 inch thick soft crust "covered"
in a tomato sauce so thin you could see through it, 1 topping per square
meter.

 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> writes:

> "Mart van de Wege" <mvdwege.usenet@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
> news:874qe3nxzi.fsf@angua.ankh-morpork.lan...
>> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> writes:
<snip>
>> > Suggesting that what they say will be wrong, because of their
>> > poor intelligence, *is.
>> >
>> This one comes close.
>
> No, *IS* ad hominem fallacy. Quality of speaker <> Speaker's Argument.

Duh.

I read an *isn't* where you wrote *is*.

That'll teach me to post early in the morning. Sorry about that. Just
disregard that bit of caffeine-deprivated rambling.

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

 

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"Mart van de Wege" <mvdwege.usenet@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:8764yh6cva.fsf@angua.ankh-morpork.lan...
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> writes:
> > No, *IS* ad hominem fallacy. Quality of speaker <> Speaker's
Argument.
>
> Duh.
> I read an *isn't* where you wrote *is*.
> That'll teach me to post early in the morning. Sorry about that. Just
> disregard that bit of caffeine-deprivated rambling.

<sniff> <sniff> What's that? A whiff of intellectual honesty? Wait a
minute - we don't do that around here, do we?

-Michael

 

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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:07:12 -0400, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Mostly I find it amusing that you would use the fact that there ARE
> exceptions to show how wrong I am, when I am speaking in general terms.
> Yes, I understand and accept and appreciate that there will be exceptions to
> the general rule. But in general terms, eggs are egglike and berries are
> berrylike. The exceptions will be just that, exceptions, but in general,
> people have no trouble saying that one is a berry and one is an egg.
>
> I also find it very believable that there is some "berrylike egg" and
> likewise an "egglike berry" to be found somewhere in nature. After all,
> nature makes up some wacky stuff(platypus, eg). But that doesn't mean it's
> a standard thing for people to accept that as "normal".

And yet you insist it's unreasonable for something a guy thought was a
'berry' to in fact be an egg. I'd be amazed, were I not forewarned by
your stances matters previously discussed.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:21:36 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> >Besides, as everyone knows, berries such as raspberries and
> >blackberries should be picked when ripe becuase half the experience of
> >picking and eating them is in getting juice all over you and your
> >clothes.
>
> Red blackberries are better than black ones. Crunchy, and oh-so-sour.

If I wanted that sort of rubbish I'd eat raspberries and currants.

My favourite blackberies were the ones off the wild bushes that grew
in the wasteland by the ralilway lines and back roads round where I
grew up. They were small, but very juicy, strongly flavoured, and
sweet. Commerical varieties are not as juicy (possibly from being
picked early so they'll keep long enough to sell), and have far less
flavour, IME.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On 19 Apr 2005 21:26:30 GMT, Robert Singers
<rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Rupert Boleyn said
>
> > The latter, I suspect. A dense bush with small leaves and fairly
> > uninteresting little white flowers, IIRC. My parents have a row of
> > them that produces lots of berries, which make a nice jelly. I prefer
> > their fijoas though.
>
> <nit> feijoa </nit>

I wasn't sure of my spelling, but when I did a google I got both. So
there.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Rupert Boleyn said

> My favourite blackberies were the ones off the wild bushes that grew
> in the wasteland by the ralilway lines and back roads round where I
> grew up. They were small, but very juicy, strongly flavoured, and
> sweet. Commerical varieties are not as juicy (possibly from being
> picked early so they'll keep long enough to sell), and have far less
> flavour, IME.

There's a paper that my brother can never find me the cite for that looks
at blackberries around NZ and their origins. It seems that there's a
correlation between the European origins of the settlers and the species
\variety of blackberries.

And just so you know the blackeberries around Whakatane are also small but
very nearly inedible.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere

 

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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:07:38 +1200, Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
scribed into the ether:

>On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:21:36 GMT, Matt Frisch
><matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> >Besides, as everyone knows, berries such as raspberries and
>> >blackberries should be picked when ripe becuase half the experience of
>> >picking and eating them is in getting juice all over you and your
>> >clothes.
>>
>> Red blackberries are better than black ones. Crunchy, and oh-so-sour.
>
>If I wanted that sort of rubbish I'd eat raspberries and currants.

Raspberries aren't crunchy and sour...

>My favourite blackberies were the ones off the wild bushes that grew
>in the wasteland by the ralilway lines and back roads round where I
>grew up.

It's not that the red blackberries I speak of are some kind of different
breed...it is the same blackberries as you find growing all over the place,
I just pick the berries a couple of weeks before they turn what most people
consider ripe.

Green or white is too unfinished, but a nice deep red is perfect.

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:fh2b61118ai5hrtm1siht2vm89hhd6ju0j@4ax.com...
> On 19 Apr 2005 21:26:30 GMT, Robert Singers
> <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Rupert Boleyn said
>>
>> > The latter, I suspect. A dense bush with small leaves and fairly
>> > uninteresting little white flowers, IIRC. My parents have a row of
>> > them that produces lots of berries, which make a nice jelly. I prefer
>> > their fijoas though.
>>
>> <nit> feijoa </nit>
>
> I wasn't sure of my spelling, but when I did a google I got both. So
> there.

Shawn Wilson does this better than you.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Between saving the world and having a spot of tea Rupert Boleyn said

>> <nit> feijoa </nit>
>
> I wasn't sure of my spelling, but when I did a google I got both. So
> there.

We expect better of you.

--
Rob Singers
"All your Ron are belong to us"
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere

 

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On 19 Apr 2005 22:55:51 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Aside from in bad soap operas, retconning appears to most often be used to fix
> a major problem like a TPK. I can't give examples, but they've been discussed
> in rgf.advocacy occasionally.

Another use in rpgs is fixing major continuity errors. The group sorts
out a version of 'history' that they can all live with, works out how
that affects things, and from then on that is how "it's always been".
Often it's the only way a major screwup can be fixed so it doesn't
tear everything apart.

The only time I've used retcons 'recently' was at the beginning of the
first D&D3 game I ran, when the new PCs all died from a combination of
bad tactics and bad luck, and we all agreed to call it a "bad dream",
rather than make new characters after all of an hour of play.

Back in the day I did a few in Aftermath, but that was because it used
a sort of retcon as the effect of precognition abilites - the precog's
player could state that how things played out within the period of his
foresight "wasn't what I saw", and you went back to just before the
stuff he didn't like and played it over, with the GM being 'allowed'
to change the exact position of the enemy, but its basic composition,
equipment, etc. It was an interesting, if time consuming, answer to
the question "How do you adjudicate the use of precognition in an rpg
without resorting or extreme railroading?"


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> writes:

> "Mart van de Wege" <mvdwege.usenet@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
> news:874qe3nxzi.fsf@angua.ankh-morpork.lan...
>> > Is observing that someone has proven unable to participate in
>> > honest debate ad hominem fallacy? IS IT?
>>
>> Without supplying proof in that observation, all you are doing is
>> *asserting* that someone is unable to participate in honest
>> debate. And in that case, yes it would be an ad hominem fallacy.
>
> Precisely my point. His simply stating that it's so doesn't necessarily
> make it so.
>
You forget that it is precisely *my* point, in the bits you snipped
away, that sometimes the asserter doesn't need to bring proof, because
his opponent already did.

And yes, Jeff, you have proven that honest debate, or even simple
*reading*, is often beyond you. QED.

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

 

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> writes:

> "Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
> news:6sta61lr71vlvp6mrkkonhcjcuqdcfll88@4ax.com...
>> Jeff apparently doesn't believe in retconning.
>
> "Retconning"? Not familiar with the term. A quick google search say that
> it's "Retroactive Continuity", claiming that something always was true.
>
> http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLC,GGLC:1969-53,GGLC:en&oi=defmore&q=define:Retcon
>
> To be honest with you, I would have thought that such an obvious version of
> reality shifting would be considered abhorent by the "good DM's" in the
> crowd. In more than one instance, my suggestions that fall in line with a
> version of "retconning" have always been deemed bad DMing, apparantly only
> because they are a version of Rule Zero, essentially.

No, because your suggestions have always been to screw over the
players to please the DM. You were not suggesting retconning, you were
suggesting using DM fiat to solve every problem. That *is* bad DMing.

Retconning in this case is making up a backstory on the spot, and as
long as the players don't know about it, whether or not this is bad
DMing is up to how well the DM can introduce the backstory.

But I suppose this difference will be lost on you anyway.

Mart

--
"We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.

 

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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7Cr9e.9389$An2.4725@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Oh, how cute. Jeffie came back for *more* of a beating. This is too

Predictably enough, he returns to tell me everything I said was wrong for
any of a variety of reasons that make no sense whatsoever. You're nothing
if not predictable, chief...

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:0d9c61p65bgva661phq9prr7lmei9m8vg8@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:47:22 +0100, "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> scribed
into
> the ether:
>
> >
> >"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
> >news:anta61hr7m9iefob0saltpoloum170ak72@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:46:48 +0100, "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com>
scribed
> >into
> >> the ether:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:wtednfgXPI5cu_jfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
> >> >>
> >> >> "Symbol" <jb70@talk21.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:g-udnWeYW56xIfnfRVnytw@pipex.net...
> >> >>
> >> >> > Never heard of them (Boisenberries)!
> >> >>
> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boysenberry
> >> >
> >> >Californian eh? Nothing good ever came out of or lived in
California!
> >>
> >> You've never had a pie made from them...yum.
> >
> >Not that I pay special attention but I'm not even sure you can by them
on
> >this side of the Atlantic (outside of speciality places in all
> >likelihood).
>
> Considering the horrors of most european food, this comes as no surprise


Just because I can buy congealed pigs blood and sheep stomach at any
supermarket?

> Couldn't even get a decent pizza in Rome. 5 inch thick soft crust
"covered"
> in a tomato sauce so thin you could see through it, 1 topping per square
> meter.

Heh.