Phenom II and i7 <=> cache design for gaming

[roofus]

Whats really too bad here is i7s inability to make use of its smp in games

But games have to be coded to take advantage of that dont they? Developers see PC gaming as the bastard child of the family. I do not expect many game titles that capitalize on smp.

 

[kassler]

How does i7 pays a price with inclusive cache design? Please show me.

They can't have that big L1 and L2 caches because it draws more power and it is waste of space because memory is copied up to three times if it is in L1 caches (same data is also stored in L2 and L3).

 

[kassler]

Phenom II's L3 cache is actually slower than i7's L3.

I7 have higher frequency on the L3 cache compared to phenom. Same as the CPU. On phenom it runs at 1.8 GHz or 2.0GHz.
L3 cache on i7 spins faster. it is probably a bit faster because it is only 16-way compared to phenom 48-way

 

[kassler]

And contrary to your other statement, many server tasks are ideal for SMT. Seriously, do I hafta drag out the Anandtech Nehalem vs. Shanghai server review, where Nehalem absolutely destroyed Shanghai with double the performance??

Is that review from the time when anandtech got a fat check from intel each month?

 

[xaira]

^ inte intel intel, u never learn do ya

 

[yomamafor1]

They can't have that big L1 and L2 caches because it draws more power and it is waste of space because memory is copied up to three times if it is in L1 caches (same data is also stored in L2 and L3).

Its ironic that you just described the advantages of having small caches. Big L1 and L2 caches take too much silicon estate, and draw too much power. Therefore having small L1 / L2 caches reduce the power draw and the silicon size.

Secondly, by having an inclusive cache hierarchy reduces the time needed to connect to the memory.

 

[yomamafor1]

I7 have higher frequency on the L3 cache compared to phenom. Same as the CPU. On phenom it runs at 1.8 GHz or 2.0GHz.
L3 cache on i7 spins faster. it is probably a bit faster because it is only 16-way compared to phenom 48-way

Oh man... you really have no clue do you...

 

[kassler]

Its ironic that you just described the advantages of having small caches. Big L1 and L2 caches take too much silicon estate, and draw too much power. Therefore having small L1 / L2 caches reduce the power draw and the silicon size.

If you store memory on more than one place it is not that effective. if you only store memory on one place you are using the space on silicon. i7 has some advatages and some disadvatages using inclusive cache.

Secondly, by having an inclusive cache hierarchy reduces the time needed to connect to the memory.

please explain

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Theyre dedicated, and not general, and this may or may not be a better solution, and may be another point 1 way or another, depending on usage, which is better.
It appears, in the overall arch, its perfect for i7, tho may have some drawbacks, but I have no examples either way, I could only point to terformance

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I'll post this link here, as it also contributes to the overall picture, and may or may not be arch dependent
"However the GPU->CPU bandwith is quite low, and it gets worse as data size increases as jross reported on similar hardware (but with a single vpu)."
http://forums.amd.com/devforum/messageview.cfm?catid=328&threadid=110351

I post this, because theres so many considerations overall, and how each arch can react to a given data set, or amount, which includes the PCI bus

 

[randomizer]

Is that review from the time when anandtech got a fat check from intel each month?

You just threw all credibility out the window but jumping on the "paid ad" bandwagon. No sites get paid to do articles by manufacturers, none, zilch, zero. They certainly get "encouraged" to twist the facts by the PR squad, but never paid.

 

[BadTrip]

as if he had any creditability to begin with

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

fazers gets my vote, he sounds the thoughtliest

 

[kassler]

You just threw all credibility out the window but jumping on the "paid ad" bandwagon. No sites get paid to do articles by manufacturers, none, zilch, zero. They certainly get "encouraged" to twist the facts by the PR squad, but never paid.

Anandtech had a intel logo on the main page and if you clicked on it you would get information about intel products. Suddenly this logo disappeared. The economic crisis..
And what poped up? reviews like this: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3506&p=9
"the Phenom II X4 940 had rock solid frame rates and offered the smoothest game play experience"
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3506&p=4
"Phenom II 940 offered a better overall gaming experience in this title than the Intel Q9550 based on smoother game play"

 

[randomizer]

Anandtech had a intel logo on the main page and if you clicked on it you would get information about intel products.

Hold the phone, Anandtech is an Intel pimp because they have ads on their site?

The economic crisis..
And what poped up? reviews like this: http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3506&p=9
"the Phenom II X4 940 had rock solid frame rates and offered the smoothest game play experience"
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=3506&p=4
"Phenom II 940 offered a better overall gaming experience in this title than the Intel Q9550 based on smoother game play"

Talk about weak evidence. It's either:

1) Coincidence, or
2) Catering your articles for the reader's context. People aren't interested in $1k processors when they are trying to pay off their mortgages.

I fail to see how this is showing their articles to be ads. I'm really tired of people coming to the conclusion that every site is paid off when they don't know what else to say. Have you ever worked for a tech website? Do you actually know anyone who does?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I too think Anand himself, shows a lil bias, but hes still one of the best. He called out the devs who made Assassins Creed, and nVidia, for? ATI, who was, and is owned by AMD, and this was before any economic ruin.
You want anti AMD bias, it aint [H]ard to find, but a lil favortism is found everywhere.
I favor AMD. Why? Cause they need it right now. Theyve done right by me in the past, and I dont really want that to go away, otherwise, if and when they get on solid ground again, theyre on their own
That doesnt make me a fanboy of AMD, just a supporter.
Maybe Anand supports Intel because he likes what theyre doing, as do I, but AMD needs my support, Intel doesnt.
I can make that choice, because AMDs offerings fit nicely within certain economic scales, whereas, as you pointed out, Anand does the same, the difference being is, hes a top notch site, which has to promote the best and the newest, and best lately has leaned a lil more AMDs way, because of the economy, thus his stories

 

[randomizer]

Showing bias and being paid are two different things. Bias is part of being human. We are not computers, we show favouritism even if we don't think we do.

 

[kassler]

Hold the phone, Anandtech is an Intel pimp because they have ads on their site?

It was on the left side at the best place(?) and it was special. Add that to reviews coming from them during this time... You would NEVER see reviews like that I linked to when this was happening. And if you know a bit about marketing it isn't a difficult conclusion to draw. Review sites don't work for free.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Notice to other readers, before P2, you didnt see me here banging my drum that much for AMD and P1, it was mostly about gpgpu, and its future.
So, even when AMD needs my support, they wont get much when their offerings are poor, and P2 isnt poor, but its not the best, but in few things, and please, dont anyone ask me to find them, other than a game here n there by small margins.
Your argument would be better if you stick to your 4%, or small gains, as thats about what were ever going to see until AMD changes a few things on their arch
I see where some of the things may be possible that youre talking about, but being an underdog, and acting like one are two different things

 

[kassler]

Showing bias and being paid are two different things. Bias is part of being human. We are not computers, we show favouritism even if we don't think we do.

You just need to open the paper in the morning, ~ 50-80 % of all articles you read is probably manipulated in some way.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

If you have someone do a writeup about your business, its only natural for you to also procure ad space for that publication, Ive done when I had my business.
Its a great opportunity to get sales, and it only makes sense

 

[randomizer]

Review sites don't work for free.

No they don't, have you noticed how many people complain about the ads here on THG? It's amazing the number of complains by people who could simply use ad blockers.

You just need to open the paper in the morning, ~ 50-80 % of all articles you read is probably manipulated in some way.

I would say more like 90% but then we're not talking about mainstream media here we're talking about benchmarks. There's political and cultural agendas behind all that newspaper drivel. Journalists != reviewers.

EDIT: This really isn't on topic so we can have a mass PM argument if you want or we can continue to run the thread off course 😉

 

[amdfangirl]

Where would the money come from then eh?

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Its ironic that you just described the advantages of having small caches. Big L1 and L2 caches take too much silicon estate, and draw too much power. Therefore having small L1 / L2 caches reduce the power draw and the silicon size.

Secondly, by having an inclusive cache hierarchy reduces the time needed to connect to the memory.

Yep. I guess Kassler failed to notice that AMD had to include a snoop filter with their 6-core Istanbul, so as to make their exclusive cache system work faster with 6 cores, since otherwise it would take half again as long to query the other core caches.

If AMD could have gone with smaller & faster L1 & L2 caches, by having better hit vs. miss ratios, I'm sure they would have preferred that approach and possibly have used inclusive L3 instead of having to use the snoop filter approach.

But, such elementary considerations are far beyond the grasp of our less-than-brightly-witted friend Kassler 😀...

 

[cjl]

It was on the left side at the best place(?) and it was special. Add that to reviews coming from them during this time... You would NEVER see reviews like that I linked to when this was happening. And if you know a bit about marketing it isn't a difficult conclusion to draw. Review sites don't work for free.

Intel was in the best place because they paid the most for the advertising space. It's as simple as that. It had nothing to do with the article content.