Question Pimp My Ride for T480... Ideas, Please!

[NateB]

I'd like to get an old T480 as close to PC Master Race mode as possible, and I want to know what creative ideas you have for doing that.

And I'd like to know the best NVMe SSD for it.

1. Is it worth getting Gen4? That is, does the controller for PCIe only support Gen3, or something like that?

2. Can I boot from the WWAN port NVMe slot?

3. Can I get an NVME SSD to replace the existing HDD bay?

This looks like it would fit, but I'm not sure about compatibility: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0C43GSZM9

I'm almost certain this will, but I don't think it's quite as fast: https://www.amazon.com/LEVEN-Compatible-Thinkpad-ThinkPad-Desktop/dp/B0BS2XGHG6

And then there's this amphibious beast: https://www.ebay.com/itm/126177092759

4. It's that last eBay item that got me wondering whether an NVMe SSD in the m2 2230 form factor would fit in a PCIe slot that takes an m2 2242 form factor. What are your thoughts on this, or even your guesses?

I read through this post and it looks like I have to get an m2 2242 form factor:

Lenovo Thinkpad T480 SSD Upgrade

Upgrading the existing SSD/HDD in your Lenovo Thinkpad T480 but not sure how to start and which SSD and where to buy? Find the information you need here!

www.samuelgoh.net

But I think the m2 2230 form factor would fit in the same slot.

5. It's already got 32GB of memory. Can I get that up to 64GB?

6. Also, what do you guys think of the T580?

7. External GPU?

Update: 2230 can fit in the WWAN slot with an adapter. It's only worth getting Gen3, not Gen4 NVMe. AN NVMe drive can go in the existing SATA bay, but no NVMe speed advantages compared to SATA SSD drive. SATA SSD drive, as known as M.2 SATA, for the T480's SATA bay is best, see LTT vid. 64GB of DDR4 RAM probably works despite not being specified. 6E Wireless card. External GPU would work, but it's better for a docking area than for lugging in a backpack. Unlikely to truly join the PC Master Race due to form factor limitations, but T480 can get upgraded to within 5-10 years of current mid hardware. Can upgrade the external stuff like screen, webcam, trackpad, and lid.

 

[Aeacus]

1. Is it worth getting Gen4? That is, does the controller for PCIe only support Gen3, or something like that?

Not worth it. As far as i can tell, laptop supports only PCI-E 3.0. Sure, PCI-E 4.0 NVMe does work in it but only with 50% of rated read/write speeds (since that's how much slower PCI-E 3.0 is compared to PCI-E 4.0).

2. Can I boot from the WWAN port NVMe slot?

Not to my knowledge. But you can try and maybe you can.

3. Can I get an NVME SSD to replace the existing HDD bay?

Well, you can physically store M.2 drive inside the 2.5" space reserved for SSD/HDD, but where you plan to connect that M.2 drive? Into same SATA 3 port as SSD/HDD is supposed to be connected? If so, then only M.2 ACHI SSD works in there, and not the M.2 NVMe SSD.

4. It's that last eBay item that got me wondering whether an NVMe SSD in the m2 2230 form factor would fit in a PCIe slot that takes an m2 2242 form factor. What are your thoughts on this, or even your guesses?

M.2-2230 does fit into M.2-2242 slot, since 2230 is shorter than 2242. But issue arises about fastening the drive since there is no screw hole at 2230 mark, only at 2242.

5. It's already got 32GB of memory. Can I get that up to 64GB?

Specs say that laptop supports up to 32GB of RAM (in two SODIMMs),
specs: https://www.lenovo.com/ee/et/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/ThinkPad-T480/p/22TP2TT4800

6. Also, what do you guys think of the T580?

I'd like to get an old T480 as close to PC Master Race mode as possible

Honest opinion? If so, i think poorly of all laptops and none of the laptops are true contenders in PC Master Race. For that, you'll need desktop PC.

Laptops were created for business use, so that business people have easily portable PC with them, to do their business. Gaming as such, IMO, is only reserved for desktop PCs. Since if you compare the two against each other, only thing laptop is better than desktop PC - is it's portability. In ALL other aspects, desktop PC does better than laptop.

7. External GPU?

How you plan to power it? Also, end result would look like freak of nature.

Pimp My Ride for T480

I get that you are (or want to be) a RICEr, but you can't RICE laptop. IF you'd have desktop PC, it would be another story.

 

[GhostGreyWolf]

As I’ve already done this project, I can tell you the best SSD for a T480 is the SK Hynix P31 Gold 2TB. PCIe 3.0 is the fastest you can do, and that drive is the fastest power efficient SSD that will work.

For reference: this is mine. The motherboard and CPU/GPU heatsink-fan are original, that’s about it.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

ThinkPad T480 models usually have a built in cage that adapts to a 2280 NVMe drive. Note that an eGPU however, is a rather silly idea when you look at the price; the T480 has an i7-8650u at its fastest.
You’ll be limited by a CPU that’s still good for a laptop but not meant for gaming. And your Thunderbolt port is already being used by the AC adapter unless you get a Thunderbolt dock.

The T480 will do 64GB of RAM, it’s just not officially supported. My T480 has 64GB and a Geforce 150MX (internal) 2GB dGPU.

 

[GhostGreyWolf]

Not worth it. As far as i can tell, laptop supports only PCI-E 3.0. Sure, PCI-E 4.0 NVMe does work in it but only with 50% of rated read/write speeds (since that's how much slower PCI-E 3.0 is compared to PCI-E 4.0).


Not to my knowledge. But you can try and maybe you can.


Well, you can physically store M.2 drive inside the 2.5" space reserved for SSD/HDD, but where you plan to connect that M.2 drive? Into same SATA 3 port as SSD/HDD is supposed to be connected? If so, then only M.2 ACHI SSD works in there, and not the M.2 NVMe SSD.



M.2-2230 does fit into M.2-2242 slot, since 2230 is shorter than 2242. But issue arises about fastening the drive since there is no screw hole at 2230 mark, only at 2242.

Specs say that laptop supports up to 32GB of RAM (in two SODIMMs),
specs: https://www.lenovo.com/ee/et/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/ThinkPad-T480/p/22TP2TT4800


Honest opinion? If so, i think poorly of all laptops and none of the laptops are true contenders in PC Master Race. For that, you'll need desktop PC.

Laptops were created for business use, so that business people have easily portable PC with them, to do their business. Gaming as such, IMO, is only reserved for desktop PCs. Since if you compare the two against each other, only thing laptop is better than desktop PC - is it's portability. In ALL other aspects, desktop PC does better than laptop.


How you plan to power it? Also, end result would look like freak of nature.


I get that you are (or want to be) a RICEr, but you can't RICE laptop. IF you'd have desktop PC, it would be another story.

Theoretically, an external GPU would be powered from its external Thunderbolt enclosure, then linked to a ThinkPad Thunderbolt dock (the T480 has Thunderbolt 3) , which itself would be powered by Lenovo’s 130w power brick (the portable brick is 90w, the dock needs more). Note: I wouldn’t do this, but it’s fully doable.

If you think a laptop can’t make PC Master Race, IMO you’re defining it wrong. While I don’t use my T480 for gaming, it is hands down the best engineer’s laptop ever made, until they make a new T480 with a 1920 x 1200 LCD. You can do the following with a T480:

-upgrade to 64GB of DDR4
-upgrade the wireless card to WiFi 6E
-swap the old LCD for a new 400-nit low power low blue-light 100% sRGB IPS unit
-swap the Mylar stickered Trackpad for the glass Trackpad from the ThinkPad X1 Carbon
-get a battery that will last 12 hours
-swap the lid from ABS to the much rarer (lighter and equally strong) magnesium one that was only available in Asian markets
-swap the regular webcam for an iR one that will do Windows Hello (requires a new display bezel and sticker; so does the magnesium lid) and is of higher quality
-It already supports PCIe 3.0 NVMe SSDs, and it’s a snap to put a reasonably fast TLC one in.

The right models have a dedicated nVidia GPU as well.

There’s an entire subReddit dedicated to ThinkPad hacking and modding for a reason -some of the best engineering ever found in laptops went into them. Further, Lenovo makes all of the hardware maintenance manuals available to everyone, and the parts lists if you know how to look them up.

(My other ThinkPad has an RTX 4090 mobile)

 

[Aeacus]

which itself would be powered by Lenovo’s 130w power brick (the portable brick is 90w, the dock needs more). Note: I wouldn’t do this, but it’s fully doable.

130W power brick hinders severely which eGPU to get for it. Essentially only 75W desktop GPU, and those aren't any meaningful GPUs for gaming as of today. E.g GTX 1650 would be tops. But to run any RTX series GPU, external PSU is needed, since desktop GPUs go as high as 600W TDP (RTX 4090), with power spikes up to 1kW, making 1.6kW PSU sufficient for it.

But it all would look like Frankenstein monster, eGPU on one side, with beefy ATX PSU just to power the eGPU just next to it. And using desktop PC components (like desktop GPU or ATX/SFX PSU) doesn't give the laptop build any more credit. IMO, it only makes it worse. Might as well go with desktop PC off the bat.

If you think a laptop can’t make PC Master Race, IMO you’re defining it wrong. While I don’t use my T480 for gaming, it is hands down the best engineer’s laptop ever made, until they make a new T480 with a 1920 x 1200 LCD. You can do the following with a T480:

Quite a limited list.

For comparison: desktop PC.
With desktop PC, you can replace/tune each and every component. Even down to MoBo screws and standoffs. Can't do the same with laptop. What MoBo and CPU it has - you're stuck with it. Not to mention cooling solution. With desktop PCs, you can go all out, up to open-loop cooling or even LN2. Only limit with desktop PCs is your imagination. But with laptops, you're bound with the proprietary hardware it comes with.

Laptop, any laptop, is never comparable to this:
(Both appearance and performance wise.)

(My other ThinkPad has an RTX 4090 mobile)

RTX 4090 mobile is equal to 3 year old RTX 3090 desktop version. Just saying.

 

[GhostGreyWolf]

@Aeacus That doesn’t seem like “just saying”; it seems like trying to be a little black rain cloud, considering people have different budgets at different times. My desktop has an EVGA 3080Ti (i7-13700k) , and a desktop RTX 3090 is still amazing. Considering the first system I built on my own was an 80386DX-25MHz in 1993, I’m amazed by the gear we have today -and there’s nothing I can’t run well at 1440p on any of my gear, which is my sweet spot (4k is hard on my eyes for everyday use).

You don’t power an eGPU off the laptop’s power brick; you do off the eGPU enclosure’s power supply, so the 135w brick doesn’t matter as it pertains to the GPU. I still said I wouldn’t do it with a T480; just that it’s possible.

And yes, you can tune every component of a desktop, I fully know that. This is my most recent build at 90% completion (hadn’t set up the colors yet among other things; it’s all white RGB now).

To me, PC Master Race is as much about tinkering and what you can do with your own hands as gaming, though I very much enjoy gaming too.

 

[geofelt]

Despite the glowing sequential benchmarks of pcie drives running queue depths of 32 as is commonly advertised, the reality is that we do things one at a time and randomly.
In that arena a sata ssd performs similarly.
These guys could not tell the difference:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKLA7w9eeA

I have converted thinkpads to ssd using the samsung ssd migration aid and simply replacing the original 2.5" HDD.
You will be amazed at the quickness.

 

[Aeacus]

@Aeacus That doesn’t seem like “just saying”; it seems like trying to be a little black rain cloud, considering people have different budgets at different times.

Besides the technical questions what OP asked, OP also wanted to know our opinions on the matter as a whole. And after answering the technical part, i also shared my opinion about what i think PC Master Race vs laptops. If you don't like my opinion, ignore it. Don't snap back over it.

As of your inclusion of you having RTX 4090 mobile, it sounded like bragging attempt. I just indicated that there's nothing to brag about since all laptop GPUs are far weaker than their desktop counterparts.
I don't go around bragging i have this or that. If you want to know what i have, check my signature.

Your latest desktop PC does look like work in progress (i see mismatched parts) but good luck on finishing it.

In any event, OP's questions have been answered and any discussion about the morality of PC Master Race would only derail the topic even further.

 

[NateB]

Besides the technical questions what OP asked, OP also wanted to know our opinions on the matter as a whole. And after answering the technical part, i also shared my opinion about what i think PC Master Race vs laptops. If you don't like my opinion, ignore it. Don't snap back over it.

Well, I don't mind the snappiness, but I do value the overall opinions, since my goal is to, within the sad limitations of laptops, get a little bit closer to performance.

I chose this old laptop not out of budget limitations, but for durability and software/OS compatibility.

 

[NateB]

Not worth it. As far as i can tell, laptop supports only PCI-E 3.0. Sure, PCI-E 4.0 NVMe does work in it but only with 50% of rated read/write speeds (since that's how much slower PCI-E 3.0 is compared to PCI-E 4.0).

Yes! This is exactly the kind of info. I was looking for.



BTW, I found out there's some kind of "Slot extender" thing, since last two numbers in the four number designations for NVMe form factors refer to the length of the drive, the length can be extended with a mere clip on piece.

So that means 2230s are in play for the WWAN slot.

Much more info. to come, as I pick my way through my memory of the looooong reply that the forum ate.

 

[NateB]

Not to my knowledge. But you can try and maybe you can.

I checked and it seems that there are some drives confirmed as being able to boot from the WWAN.

Some guy made a table on Plebbit: https://old.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/llsq0h/m2_2242_pcie_ssd_for_t480/

If so, then only M.2 ACHI SSD works in there, and not the M.2 NVMe SSD.

AHA! Excellent. Then I will go for an m2 ACHI (OR was it AHCI?) and avoid an unnecessary expense. Thanks.

M.2-2230 does fit into M.2-2242 slot, since 2230 is shorter than 2242. But issue arises about fastening the drive since there is no screw hole at 2230 mark, only at 2242.

Might have found a solution, in the form of this dongley sort of thing that can be dangled onto the end:

M.2 NVMe SSD 2230 2242 2260 Universal Adapter

Buy M.2 NVMe SSD 2230 2242 2260 Universal Adapter for $9.99 with Free Shipping Worldwide (In Stock)

www.moddiy.com

This clever eBay seller gave me the idea: https://www.ebay.com/itm/126177092759

Specs say that laptop supports up to 32GB of RAM (in two SODIMMs)

Found a forum that says U R RONG:

https://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=127822

RONG! Or at least that the specs are wrong. Maybe not you.

none of the laptops are true contenders in PC Master Race. For that, you'll need desktop PC.

I know a guy who packed something like 128mb of RAM into an MSI laptop that weighed about 10 lb, a pretty high end graphics card, etc.

But I got a disappointing answer when I asked how many monitors it could support at once.

How you plan to power it? Also, end result would look like freak of nature.

I guess I'd need to look for another power supply for it. I'm not sure how such things are done, but yeah, it likely would look weird. Portable, though. Poooooortable.

The laptop arrives on Monday, at which point I'll see how dead it is and what else can be done to get it a bit more future-proofed and travel-ready.

I've already ordered one of the hot-swappable batteries, the main reason for choosing this model, and I think I'll get a USB-C battery pack to charge it, too.

 

[NateB]

I can tell you the best SSD for a T480 is the SK Hynix P31 Gold 2TB. PCIe 3.0 is the fastest you can do, and that drive is the fastest power efficient SSD that will work.

Doesn't the bay that this would go in, if it's a 2280, only go up to SATA speeds? In that case, wouldn't getting an NVMe interface be still too fast compared to what the laptop actually supports?

ThinkPad T480 models usually have a built in cage that adapts to a 2280 NVMe drive.

I mean, it would fit, my concern is just whether the SATA bay supports NVMe speeds, or whether I am buying "too much SSD speed" for that bay.

The T480 will do 64GB of RAM, it’s just not officially supported. My T480 has 64GB and a Geforce 150MX (internal) 2GB dGPU.

Glad to hear another confirmation of this. RAM and GPU are my favorite upgrades, and the MX150 GPU on this is soldered on.

The right models have a dedicated nVidia GPU as well.

MX150 right here! I made sure to get one that had it.

My other ThinkPad has an RTX 4090 mobile

Soldered on, or did you upgrade it? And what's your other Thinkpad?

 

[Aeacus]

Then I will go for an m2 ACHI (OR was it AHCI?) and avoid an unnecessary expense. Thanks.

Well, it's more commonly known as M.2 SATA. E.g these,
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/i...122080,122110&c1=di_m2.sata&sort=price&page=1

Found a forum that says U R RONG:

https://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=127822
RONG! Or at least that the specs are wrong. Maybe not you.

I look it by the official specs. When official specs say max 32GB, then this is what i can refer to. Now, you might get 64GB working or you may not. However, if i were to say that max is 64GB and you trust my advice, but end up not getting 64GB working (since officially it supports 32GB), then my info would be misleading. And just because someone, somewhere got 64GB working, doesn't help you or your issue. So, i play it safe and refer to what is officially supported.
But if you try to go with 64GB route, then this is on your own accord (including when it doesn't work).

I guess I'd need to look for another power supply for it. I'm not sure how such things are done, but yeah, it likely would look weird. Portable, though. Poooooortable.

It would look similar to this:

Source: https://www.pcworld.com/article/423...owerhouse-with-an-external-graphics-card.html

That source is actually a guide for eGPU on laptops that you can read. It's a bit old but overall info in there is good, IF you want to go with eGPU route.

ATX PSU and desktop GPU together may way same (or even more) than your entire laptop. Not to mention all the cabling that goes with eGPU. So, you'd loose out on portability convenience quite a lot. Might as well build mini-ITX system for yourself (or go the route of mini PC) if you'd like desktop performance that is portable-ish.

 

[NateB]

It would look similar to this:

I like the graphic. It'd be the kind of thing where I'd rely on the MX150 on the jets, and keep a kind of docking setup ready at base for when I CBA to to switch over to the smaller format desktop that I plan to get.

I'm also wondering if there might be some PSUs specific to this kind of setup.

But it's good to know that I can go the ATX power supply route if needed, since I have one of those lying around. Somewhere.

 

[NateB]

@GhostGreyWolf:

eGPU enclosure’s power supply, so the 135w brick doesn’t matter as it pertains to the GPU. I still said I wouldn’t do it with a T480; just that it’s possible.

Why wouldn't you do use an eGPU with a T480?

And do you know of a specific enclosure that would work with an old $150 graphics card?

Examples: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dcat=27386&_udlo=100&Memory%20Size=16%20GB&_fsrp=1&rt=nc&_from=R40&_nkw=graphics+card&_sacat=0&Memory%20Type=GDDR6X|GDDR6&_udhi=160&LH_ItemCondition=3000

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Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for SAPPHIRE Radeon RX 6900 XT 16GB GDDR6 Graphics Card - Black (11308-01-20G) at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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To me, PC Master Race is as much about tinkering and what you can do with your own hands as gaming

Yes! And about video editing and having 8 VMs open to test out custom "software" a man tries to understand without messing up his hardware. The internet offers us many games, some with more lucrative prizes than others.

 

[NateB]

As I’ve already done this project, I can tell you the best SSD for a T480 is the SK Hynix P31 Gold 2TB. PCIe 3.0 is the fastest you can do, and that drive is the fastest power efficient SSD that will work.

I installed the SK Hynix P31 Gold 2TB.

I also bought a 2TB Micron 2400 M.2 2230 NVMe PCIe SSD Gen 4.0x4 (MTFDKBK2T0QFM), with the intention of replacing the cell network card with an SSD, but the pins were incorrect.

-upgrade the wireless card to WiFi 6E

Can the Cell Data network card or the WiFi card be replaced with another SSD?

 

[NateB]

Anyway, I'll make do with what I have, for now, and replace the WWAN card later, I guess.

I was misled by the interface for the WWAN card also being called M.2:

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/accessories-and-software/mobile-broadband/4g-lte/4xc0r38452

 

[NateB]

It looks like one of the following would fit, but I'd like to get your thoughts before I order again:

https://www.amazon.com/Gamerking-Internal-Performance-Desktop-Laptop/dp/B08BRG3FYY

https://www.amazon.com/SSD-Dogfish-Internal-Performance-M-2-2242/dp/B07ZF6K1Y6

I'm also perfectly ready to do something like this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NOSpAFvxTWaqDo6xxURgRYBJU2Y5Nebn/view

Orrrr.... could I adapt my way out of my ordering mistake with an A key to B key adapter?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374680111137

 

[Aeacus]

I was misled by the interface for the WWAN card also being called M.2:

Well, it IS M.2. With a diff that wi-fi card uses A+E key connection and storage drives usually use M-key connection (but many also support B+M key connection).

It looks like one of the following would fit, but I'd like to get your thoughts before I order again:

https://www.amazon.com/Gamerking-Internal-Performance-Desktop-Laptop/dp/B08BRG3FYY

https://www.amazon.com/SSD-Dogfish-Internal-Performance-M-2-2242/dp/B07ZF6K1Y6

These two both use B+M key connection.

Can the Cell Data network card or the WiFi card be replaced with another SSD?

Well, if you use adapter, then yes. Namely A+E to B+M.

Orrrr.... could I adapt my way out of my ordering mistake with an A key to B key adapter?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374680111137

It would work, if it only would fit into the space where wi-fi card goes. (Hint: it won't fit. It's too long.)

 

[NateB]

You can do the following with a T480

Add this to your list of what you can do with a T480:

https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/atr4k3/t480_trashraid_1_ssd_setup_and_review/

https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/atr4k3/t480_trashraid_1_ssd_setup_and_review/#lightbox

 

[NateB]

He used a RAID adapter for the SSD.

 

[NateB]

These two both use B+M key connection.

I found a Chinesium version: https://www.ebay.com/itm/394212225801

But am I going to be buying a fake?

Do you think there's much danger going with a non-name brand, assuming that I can return it if it's fake?

And what are the typical ways to determine if an SSD is crap?

 

[Aeacus]

With hardware, you have 2 choices;

1, Buy from questionable source, no-name hardware and play the lottery that you MIGHT get decent piece of hardware for paying peanuts.
2. Buy from reputable source, brand name, brand new hardware, get warranty, be assured it works, while paying proper price for it.

For 2nd option, here:
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Transcend-512GB-MTS430S-Solid-TS512GMTS430S/dp/B07MSQMGLT
(Note: This is AHCI drive and not NVMe.)

I, personally, am not rich enough to buy used hardware. Thus, i only buy brand new stuff.

 

[NateB]

amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Transcend-512GB-MTS430S-Solid-TS512GMTS430S/dp/B07MSQMGLT
(Note: This is AHCI drive and not NVMe.)

Largest size I could find for that Transcend brand is 1TB:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Transcend+2242+B+M+Key+SSD

Amazon.com

I have to confess, I'm not as aware of the details of this, and I may have to look up the distinction between NVMe and AHCI, and how they relate to SATA for this. And I'm starting to notice some details I had not before, like the presence of DRAM. These components are less commoditized based on listed specifications than they had first appeared, to me.

Do you know of anything with similar quality to the Transcend hardware that goes up to 2TB?

And yes, this will run some important business operations for me.

The reason for me buying replacement parts, getting an entirely separate storage device, more RAM, and getting a hot-swappable battery in the first place is for higher reliability, not just for performance.

I probably also need to get a waterproof bag or case for it.

 

[Aeacus]

Do you know of anything with similar quality to the Transcend hardware that goes up to 2TB?

Trancend M.2 SSD 425S (size 2242) goes up to 2TB in size,
specs: https://www.transcend-info.com/product/internal-ssd/mts425s

Finding one on sale is up to you.

is for higher reliability

You can not expect high reliability from used hardware. E.g used T480 has easy 6 years on it (first released Jan'18), whereby the more time you put on it - the higher the chance of it dying.

So, if you want high reliability, buy brand new laptop. Since that also comes with warranty to ensure it lasting as long as warranty period (if not, just RMA the device for replacement).