proposal for group fighting piracy

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Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

OldDog wrote:
> "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com> wrote in message
> news:111k1d2o1o90u45@news.supernews.com...
>
>>"OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote in message
>>news:5ueSd.21650$cW2.9699@fe2.texas.rr.com...
>>
>>
>>>There's folks that wouldn't have bought loads of games if they hadn't
>>
>>tried
>>
>>>the warez vs playing with a demo for 30mins?
>>>
>>>note: while I admit that a "few" demos are of limited use, in general
>>
>>most
>>
>>>provide an adequate reflection of the final game.
>>
>>I find that most demos are of limited use. They are more often than not
>>betas or otherwise not representative of the finished product.
>>
>>
>
>
> Most demos don't represent the finished product? What are some recent
> examples of this?

I can't remember any offhand, but I remember trying many demos that had
a disclamer shown when you run the game that basically states how it
represents about 90% or so of the final game, and "should not be taken
as a representation of the final product"...
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

Thusly "Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com> Spake Unto All:

>You're not understanding what I'm saying. I couldn't care less what's
>"legal" or "illegal".

That's why you are a pirate.

>These days all you can do is buy a license to "use" the
>software. What does it matter where you get the media from?

Nothing. It matters where you get the _content_.

>If somebody downloads a warez copy of a game, then proceeds to go out and
>buy it - and would never have bought it had he not been able to download it
>first - how is that person a "thief"?

He's a thief until he's bought it.

>The duplication of 1s and 0s is not "theft" nor is it "real cash taken out
>of your family's piggy bank". You have failed to see the bigger picture.

Oh, the *bigger picture*. Yeah, that's a whole other thing. In the big
picture you're not pirating because you're cheap, you're, uh, testing
games. By playing through them twice. And, um, not liking them enough
to buy them.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

"OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> once tried to test me with:

>> You've never heard of the Business Software Alliance?
>> http://www.bsa.org/
>>
>> The Software & Information Industry Association? -- formerly the
>> Software Publishers Association (SPA)
>> http://www.siia.net
>>
>> Or am I missing the sarcasm here?
>
> No sarcasm meant.
>
> SPA! And I've actually heard of them. But honestly I just haven't
> heard much from them lately and forgot all about them. Do they do
> ads on TV-radio similar to what the RIAA has done? Have they taken
> any 12 year olds to court like RIAA?
>
>
> ps thanks for reminding this OldDog about the two associations above.

Thankfully, no, they haven't taken 12 year olds to court yet.

They tend to go after mass-producing pirates, or warez groups, etc. Or
actually they go after businesses a lot too, who are ratted out by
disgruntled employees.

--

Knight37

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.
 
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"GFree" <nickt4001@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:421a6d4a$1@yorrell.saard.net...
> OldDog wrote:
<snip>
> > Most demos don't represent the finished product? What are some recent
> > examples of this?
>
> I can't remember any offhand, but I remember trying many demos that had
> a disclamer shown when you run the game that basically states how it
> represents about 90% or so of the final game, and "should not be taken
> as a representation of the final product"...

Oh, so it's that tiny 10% that folks are missing that get's them over the
hump as to whether they buy it or not. Instead of playing just 3 levels of
a demo with only 4 weapons, people really need to see all 20 levels and all
10 weapons? 😉
 
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On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, "CounterStrikeJunkie" wrote:

> So then , you are part of the problem, because just like the pirates you are
> paying less than the full retail price (notice I put FULL RETAIL PRICE), in
> the case of the pirate they are paying nothing, but according to your own
> posts you are waiting till they get to $10, which is approx 1/3 of the
> price. You too are ripping of the publishers.

what are you saying!!!!
so now HONEST pc gamers that BUY ORIGINAL pc games either in
discount or when in bargains or even in budget editions are
PIRATES????????
if you buy a game from the ea collection "ea classics" or one
from the atari series "best of" or "bestseller" from sierra
you now are a PIRATE????????
and if i buy games in the 2nd hand market am i also a pirate?
are you completely out of your mind??????

yes i wait for prices to drop to buy pc games
yes i wait to find discounts and bargains in pc games
yes i wait for special budget editions to buy some pc games
all this make me a HONEST and TRUE pc gamer like any other!

there are only one kind of pirates, someone that is playing
a game without paying for it
yes for me lending is also pirating... you have to pay to
play a game!

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

against steam campaign
http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
http://www.steamwatch.org/

please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
 
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"sayNO2consoles" <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:44vl11dklf2daq9ekqe3ueuhsip0ncema0@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005, "CounterStrikeJunkie" wrote:
>
>> So then , you are part of the problem, because just like the pirates you
>> are
>> paying less than the full retail price (notice I put FULL RETAIL PRICE),
>> in
>> the case of the pirate they are paying nothing, but according to your own
>> posts you are waiting till they get to $10, which is approx 1/3 of the
>> price. You too are ripping of the publishers.
>
> what are you saying!!!!
> so now HONEST pc gamers that BUY ORIGINAL pc games either in
> discount or when in bargains or even in budget editions are
> PIRATES????????
> if you buy a game from the ea collection "ea classics" or one
> from the atari series "best of" or "bestseller" from sierra
> you now are a PIRATE????????
> and if i buy games in the 2nd hand market am i also a pirate?
> are you completely out of your mind??????
>
> yes i wait for prices to drop to buy pc games
> yes i wait to find discounts and bargains in pc games
> yes i wait for special budget editions to buy some pc games
> all this make me a HONEST and TRUE pc gamer like any other!
>
> there are only one kind of pirates, someone that is playing
> a game without paying for it
> yes for me lending is also pirating... you have to pay to
> play a game!
>
> --

No, I am saying that you are condemning people for taking money out of the
'mouths' of publishers and developers or retail outlet and you are doing
exactly the same thing. In your case, they are getting some money but not
the full retail price.

e.g

Full price of game = $49.99 <-- you wait till it is $10 (as you say happens)
, you have taken $39.99 out of the mouths of the dev/pub/retail. Yes the
dev/pub/retail got $10 which is better than a pirate but, you still removed
money from the chain.

BTW, what if you buy a game from a buddy who is finished it and doesn't want
it anymore. You have now taken ALL the money out of the mouth of the
dev/pub/retail
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

OldDog wrote:
>
> Who knows. Maybe it's like the directors in the movies, when you watch the
> deleted scenes on a DVD, and they chat about why the scene was taken out.
> 😉
>
>

As in the Chronicles of Riddick game where (on the developers
commentary) they do talk about things that were changed or left out and
why. They are not shy about blaming the publisher for those decisions
either.

--
"I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour
before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine
hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to
work, and when we got home, our Dad and our Mother would kill us, and
dance about on our graves singing "Hallelujah."

"And you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't
believe ya"
 
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GFree wrote:
>
>
> You're about to...
>

True .. but only in terms of stability and performance. It was still
representitive, IMO, in terms of gameplay.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

"OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote in message
news:GCtSd.28666$Bx5.6962@fe1.texas.rr.com...

> > I find that most demos are of limited use. They are more often than not
> > betas or otherwise not representative of the finished product.
> Most demos don't represent the finished product? What are some recent
> examples of this?
>
> As to being a beta, even a beta should give you a warm fuzzy for the game.

Too many to count. Deus Ex, Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex Invisible War,
Vietcong, BF1942, Far Cry to name a few. Some of those had a buggy beta
demo, some had features added / deleted from the full game, some had their
developers CLAIMing that the full game would be different (Invisible War).

Then there are all those games where the demo came out weeks or months after
the full game (or none at all). "Exclusive" Fileplanet downloads which is
far as I'm concerned is inaccessible. Or the HL2 demo requiring Steam to
download and play (lol).
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:58:19 GMT, "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote:
>While you certainly might not feel that you are doing anything illegal, how
>would the legal system in your country treat this? Anyone? Is it illegal
>to d/l a copy of a software program.

It's not illegal where I live.
Downloading copyrighted material for personal use from sources such as p2p is
legal here, but it's offset by the fact that there's a heavy tax on mediums such
as videos, tapes, CDs and DVDs -- tax which is used to pay and placate
copyright-holders.

Quite effective system, really. The government has long ago realised that
whether it's legal or not, it's going to happen anyway -- so there's no point in
making it illegal; and since it's going to happen anyway, might as well think of
some effective way of covering the losses. Increased medium fees do exactly
that.
 
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"Kroagnon" <kroagnon@kroagnon.com> wrote in message
news:111n9d15a69m725@news.supernews.com...
>
> "OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote in message
> news:GCtSd.28666$Bx5.6962@fe1.texas.rr.com...
>
> > > I find that most demos are of limited use. They are more often than
not
> > > betas or otherwise not representative of the finished product.
> > Most demos don't represent the finished product? What are some recent
> > examples of this?
> >
> > As to being a beta, even a beta should give you a warm fuzzy for the
game.
>
> Too many to count. Deus Ex, Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex Invisible War,
> Vietcong, BF1942, Far Cry to name a few. Some of those had a buggy beta
> demo, some had features added / deleted from the full game, some had their
> developers CLAIMing that the full game would be different (Invisible War).
>

I remember trying the Deus EX, 1942, and Far Cry demos. I don't recall
that many bugs with them.... but then heck, Windows has enough bugs to keep
Raid in business for the next 50 years. 😉

> Then there are all those games where the demo came out weeks or months
after
> the full game (or none at all). "Exclusive" Fileplanet downloads which is
> far as I'm concerned is inaccessible. Or the HL2 demo requiring Steam to
> download and play (lol).
>

It would be nice to get the demo around the same time as the game release.
But sometimes we just have to wait; I guess some developers push to get
the product out in time, and then later have someone work on the demo and
that's why its late?

I gave up on Fileplanet.
 
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Kroagnon wrote:
> Or the HL2 demo requiring Steam to
> download and play (lol).

This isn't such a bad thing. Since the full version of HL2 requires
Steam anyway, new people who don't know a thing about Steam can try out
the demo in the same environment that they'd experience with the full
version. If they don't like the gaming environment they know they'll
have to deal with, no harm done.
 
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Courageous wrote:
> >I agree that PC games are not expensive. Even if you pay the full
retail
> >price for the great game (let's say under 100$) that gives you 500+
hours
>
> It's quite unlikely that any average consumer will get anywhere
/near/
> 500+ hours out of a typical computer game.

I was about to agree, then I considered that online RPGs might offer
this, which also suggests that games like Counterstrike etc might also
give you this much playing time. And they are HL2 mods; you buy HL2 to
get the playing time on CS et al. And then I remembered how long I
spent making maps for HL1.

Also, sports games that offer downloadable updates to teams etc, could
possibly have the longevity of the original product extended, although
there seems to be a new box on the shelves each season, so don't quote
me. I don't play these games - it's just a thought that occurred to me.

The Sims, might last that long, with all the add-on packs, but then
you've got to figure in the cot of the add-ons.

Oh, and Civ can last way over 500 hours 😉

So I would say that for games with a significant online presence, you
can easily get 500+ hours out of them, and possibly a few others as
well.
 
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alexti wrote:
> I would much
> prefer if the games were distributed under the policy "free to try
for 2
> weeks, 200$ to keep playing after" (or pay 200$ right away, but be
able to
> get full refund within 2 weeks). I have no idea how such policy could
be
> implemented, but it would make it pointless to make bad games and
encourage
> to create great games.


Are you mad? At $200 a pop even difool would start pirating them!
 
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sayNO2piracy <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:hr9j119glaoi4r7uk77hrkk3ij0j7a63cq@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 20 Feb 2005, "CounterStrikeJunkie" wrote:
>
>> You still haven't explained how this group will reduce prices for the
>> gaming consumer.
>
> didn't i tell you before i don't believe pc games are expensive!
> for me there isn't a issue with pc game pricing
> pc games have the RIGHT price
> you can buy pc games as low as 10 or 5 bucks, you simply can't ask
> to be any lower!
> isn't 10 bucks cheap? obviously its a great price to pay!

I agree that PC games are not expensive. Even if you pay the full retail
price for the great game (let's say under 100$) that gives you 500+ hours
of enjoyable time, that's less than 20 cents per hour. That's quite cheap
(at least in the western world). The problem that I see in PC games is lack
of great games. And low prices actually hurt, because developers/publishers
have to cut costs to make profit which result in poorer games. I would much
prefer if the games were distributed under the policy "free to try for 2
weeks, 200$ to keep playing after" (or pay 200$ right away, but be able to
get full refund within 2 weeks). I have no idea how such policy could be
implemented, but it would make it pointless to make bad games and encourage
to create great games.

Alex.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

>I agree that PC games are not expensive. Even if you pay the full retail
>price for the great game (let's say under 100$) that gives you 500+ hours

It's quite unlikely that any average consumer will get anywhere /near/
500+ hours out of a typical computer game.

Just IMO,

C//
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

>> It's quite unlikely that any average consumer will get anywhere
>/near/
>> 500+ hours out of a typical computer game.

>So I would say that for games with a significant online presence, you
>can easily get 500+ hours out of them, and possibly a few others as
>well.

Sure. Thinking about it, I'm not so certain some of these don't bring
the averages way up. Be that as it may, I suspect that the /median/
computer game doesn't really get played all that long. Off on the upside,
we certainly do have games that get played a lot of hours...

C//
 
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"OldDog" <OldDog@citypound.com> wrote in message
news😱nOSd.33818$cW2.21317@fe2.texas.rr.com...

> > Too many to count. Deus Ex, Operation Flashpoint, Deus Ex Invisible War,
> > Vietcong, BF1942, Far Cry to name a few. Some of those had a buggy beta
> > demo, some had features added / deleted from the full game, some had
their
> > developers CLAIMing that the full game would be different (Invisible
War).
> I remember trying the Deus EX, 1942, and Far Cry demos. I don't recall
> that many bugs with them....

The BF1942 demo was so buggy I could hardly get it working. Deus Ex I didn't
much care for the first level (at the time) so I wouldn't have bought it.

> but then heck, Windows has enough bugs to keep
> Raid in business for the next 50 years. 😉

Yep... and now Microsoft wants to limit updates to paying customers. Best
thing they could do to hurt Windows. 😛

> It would be nice to get the demo around the same time as the game release.
> But sometimes we just have to wait; I guess some developers push to get
> the product out in time, and then later have someone work on the demo and
> that's why its late?

I don't mind helping test beta demos, but there are quite a few that aren't
upgraded to the same code as the full game so it's hard to get a feel for
what you'll be buying.

> I gave up on Fileplanet.

Hear hear. I never even bothered in the first place.
 
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, "CounterStrikeJunkie" wrote:

<snip>

no way i'll ever accept what you wrote!
NEVER!
i do my job!
i support pc games!
i PAY TO PLAY!
its not me who does the pricing, i just pay the price the retail
channel offers me

as for the 2nd hand market...
i'm all in favour of the pc game 2nd hand market, something valve
wants to destroy
personally i always prefer the new version no matter if i have to
pay more for it, but the 2nd hand market is very useful and must
be always a reality cause there are many pc games that prefer it

buying new budget games or in the 2nd hand market is supporting
pc games and only piracy is the problem!

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

against steam campaign
http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
http://www.steamwatch.org/

please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
 
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, alexti wrote:

<snip insane talk about 200 dollar games>

i'm sorry don't take it personally but what you wrote is so absorb
i simply don't know how to follow up...
games that last 500 hours and cost 200 bucks are completely "alien"
to me
i don't know what planet you are from but for sure its not the same
as mine

--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam

against steam campaign
http://nosteam.afterdarknet.at/

steamwatch - independent observatory about steam
http://www.steamwatch.org/

please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
 
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"sayNO2steam" wrote
> alexti wrote:

> <snip insane talk about 200 dollar games>

> i'm sorry don't take it personally but what you wrote is so absorb
> i simply don't know how to follow up...
> games that last 500 hours and cost 200 bucks are completely "alien"
> to me
> i don't know what planet you are from but for sure its not the same
> as mine

Duh!
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic,alt.games.half-life (More info?)

>
> buying new budget games or in the 2nd hand market is supporting
> pc games and only piracy is the problem!
>
of course, you might just find that the serial number has been banned from
online servers for cheating. if i don't wish to pay full price i'd rather
wait for the budget release than buy 2nd hand

dr ratt
 
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"Chadwick" <chadwick110@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1109152548.213960.135360@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> alexti wrote:
>> I would much
>> prefer if the games were distributed under the policy "free to try for
>> 2 weeks, 200$ to keep playing after" (or pay 200$ right away, but be
>> able to get full refund within 2 weeks). I have no idea how such
>> policy could be implemented, but it would make it pointless to make
>> bad games and encourage to create great games.
>
>
> Are you mad? At $200 a pop even difool would start pirating them!
No, he would be getting another game every 2 weeks :)

Many people buy game a month. Let's say 40$ per game on average - 480$ per
year. 2 great games at $200 would easily fill the gaming needs for a year
(though those great games tend to last much more than a year). That's only
400$ per year. And even better, you'd get to play great game instead of
mediocre one. Or compare cost with MMORPG costs. So while 200$ sounds
somewhat scary, it's probably cost less than as things are now.

Alex.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action (More info?)

gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites wrote:
> sayNO2piracy <sayNO2steam@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:ce2h11dqu3kfobkeonnbjmbqfgoaj2kp7k@4ax.com:
> Really? Which groups are these?
> The groups Im in tend to reply with:
>
> "wrong group. This is the group for people who LIKE games"
> "were you looking for the cracks/warez group? the thieves hang out there"
> "did you realize that you posted with no anonymity at all into a
> newsgroup which is achived forever and asked for support of an illegal
> act which can get you ToS'd off of your ISP?"
> That last one is funny since so many think that a free email account
> somewhere is adequate hiding of their ISP. No concept of hidden headers
> in their post. As a sysadmin I have no problem with letting an ISP know
> what one of their users is doing and letting them decide what to do about
> it. Its more effective than you think.
> But my point is that even if you dont choose to ACTIVELY do something
> about it, just speaking up with abit of disgust can do alot. Clear up the
> "I thought everyone on the net did this" type of thinking.
> Gandalf Parker

Great

raynie7402@duskmail.com
 
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uioc@hotel6.com wrote:
> "James A. Cooley" <jacooley@centralpets.com> wrote in message
> news:vs4Sd.27236$Bx5.17959@fe1.texas.rr.com...
> OK, when I bought HL1, it was $55 on the shelf.
> When I bought original OFP, which was just under 4 years ago, it was $62.95.
> Original UT on the shelf here was $66.95 at local software store here when I
> bought it
> Do you want more. I can see if I can find more of my original game boxes
> from back then
> I just bought Joint Operations last year (2004) it was $49.95 first day
> Farcry last year was also $49.99
> In fact most titles at my local EB are $49.99
> with HL2 being the exception, at $59.99 that I have purchased

Thanks

arkadi8011@duskmail.com
 
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