PSU problem? Or need UPS? USB shorting out computer

[bmcelvan]

Brand new build, i7-6700k on a sabertooth z170 board. Initially had an Ultra X4 modular 750W power supply. I didn't seem to notice any problems when inserting USB cables, but I'm not sure I actually did other than a flash disk (usb powered) for win install.

Upon trying to overclock the RAM and CPU, read about how a good PSU is critical and after reading how bad the Ultra power supplies are switched to a new FSP Group HydroG 750W PSU.

Then I noticed frequently when inserting usb cables the computer would immediately reboot (it seemed to short out but I'm not sure technically if that it was happened, I didn't see any sparks or anything like that). After a few more occurences I'm pretty sure it only happens with self powered (wall powered) external HDDs.

Then, by accident, I noticed it happen with the external HDD before I had the usb cable connected to the computer. In other words, the second I plugged the power cord into the wall, the computer restarted. So my thinking is I need a UPS? Is that good thinking, can anyone think of any other conclusions?

It didn't happen with the Ultra, not even once and I'm wondering if that is because it had no electrical safety features whereas the HydroG has all of them. Is there a way to test if they are malfunctioning or if I really need a UPS?

 

[doownek1]

If I were you, I'd check the outlet that you have are plugging into. Sounds to me like you have a loose connection, or a bad outlet. There isnt anything else that could cause your computer to re-boot while plugging something into that outlet. Has to be something wrong with that outlet.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

There is a feature on motherboards that, if too much current is drawn through the USB ports, it'll shut off the computer. However, the fact that this is powered by the wall makes me doubtful of this. This is very strange. The FSP Hydro G 750W is also a high quality unit.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

The only thing I can think of is that the PSU may have a fault with its 5VSB rail (powers USB and standby devices). WHen the computer reboots, does it stay booted and does the USB device work properly?

 

[geofelt]

Is the outlet for the psu properly grounded?

The failure when you plugged in the external power(without the usb plugged) is telling.
You might have a short in the external device.
Such devices are such low power that I would not think you would be so close to the edge to cause a problem.
If this happens with other multiple external devices that is another thing.
A UPS I think is an excellent thing regardless. Particularly if your house power is a bit unstable.

What is your graphics card configuration?
Is it possible that 750w is not enough and you are close to the edge in power?
R9-380 CF might do it for example.

On overclocking, I suggest you do not overclock your ram. Leave it at 1.2v. Otherwise you reduce your cpu overclock headroom for no good reason.
Here is an article on ram speed scaling for skylake:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1478-page1.html

As of 2/16/16
What percent can get an overclock at a somewhat sane 1.40v

I7-6700K
4.8 18%
4.7 56%
4.6 87%
4.5 100%

Run memtest86+ for at least a full pass.
You should get NO errors.

Do some stress testing with OCCT.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

I don't think stress testing will solve anything. This only happens when he plugs something into the USB port. It is very strange. His computer can be idle and it will shut down just from putting something into the USB port. bmcelvan, have you tried every USB port? Does this happen for all USB ports? That would rule out a fault with a USB port.

Edit: Wait, so you have your HDD plugged into the PC, you plug the HDD into the wall, and then it shuts off. Correct?

 

[bmcelvan]

The only thing I can think of is that the PSU may have a fault with its 5VSB rail (powers USB and standby devices). WHen the computer reboots, does it stay booted and does the USB device work properly?

I forgot to mention, any time I plug the USB cable in and it reboots (and I don't touch it during this process), it reboots fine (first time) and the computer works properly. It seems like a one time isolated event (the plugging in of the USB device). The USB device works fine as well.

The only time I have another problem is when I plug in (or unplug) a wall powered USB device. Flash drives and WD my passports (all USB powered) don't trigger this action at all. It only happens when there is a power cable attached to the wall outlet.

 

[bmcelvan]

If I were you, I'd check the outlet that you have are plugging into. Sounds to me like you have a loose connection, or a bad outlet. There isnt anything else that could cause your computer to re-boot while plugging something into that outlet. Has to be something wrong with that outlet.

Was my thinking too except that I think it is the circuit, not the specific outlet. As the computer is on one outlet, the external HDDs are on another separate outlet (but same circuit from the breaker) and I also forgot to mention this also happened once when I plugged in my babies swing on another outlet connected on the same circuit (didn't realize all were the same circuit until I looked further at it because it was on a different wall.)

Would a UPS probably solve this issue? Or could it be the PSU safety systems are over sensitive. NEVER happened with the Ultra PSU (no safety systems as far as I know)

 

[bmcelvan]

Is the outlet for the psu properly grounded?

The failure when you plugged in the external power(without the usb plugged) is telling.
You might have a short in the external device.
Such devices are such low power that I would not think you would be so close to the edge to cause a problem.
If this happens with other multiple external devices that is another thing.
A UPS I think is an excellent thing regardless. Particularly if your house power is a bit unstable.

What is your graphics card configuration?
Is it possible that 750w is not enough and you are close to the edge in power?
R9-380 CF might do it for example.

On overclocking, I suggest you do not overclock your ram. Leave it at 1.2v. Otherwise you reduce your cpu overclock headroom for no good reason.
Here is an article on ram speed scaling for skylake:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1478-page1.html

As of 2/16/16
What percent can get an overclock at a somewhat sane 1.40v

I7-6700K
4.8 18%
4.7 56%
4.6 87%
4.5 100%

Run memtest86+ for at least a full pass.
You should get NO errors.

Do some stress testing with OCCT.

Multiple different electrical devices have now caused this issue with my computer. When I plugged my daughters baby swing into another outlet on a different wall (same circuit) the computer rebooted at that exact instant. This never happened with the Ultra PSU originally installed in this computer nor did it happen with that same Ultra PSU when it was in my old computer for over two years.

Prior to this newly built computer with this HydroG PSU installed (the last 15 days or so), I have had two computers on this circuit, my old one with the 750W Ultra and a low end store bought Lenovo with I think a 300W PSU (at most). Upon inspection I recently realized this same circuit had a big dehumidfier on it as well which runs about 25-30% of the time. Never had a single problem like this until I added the new PSU on the new computer.

750W is definitely more than plenty. Using integrated graphics right now and the CPU is on stock and the RAM is on XMP 1.35V at a slightly slower than it's speced speeds, 3000 versus 3200. (Can't get 3200 to work on this mobo).

Obviously could be bad house power but don't think so. The basement was finished summer 2012 and the electrical installed by an electrician who put in a whole new breaker box for the basement cause the old box wasn't big enough. So pretty much brand new house power.

Tonight will unplug everything from that circuit except for computer alone (so no other load) and will test with plugging various things into other outlets (not even touching computer).

Will a USP solve this if it is bad house power (isn't that what they are for)?

How to determine if PSU is faulty if it isn't bad house power?

 

[turkey3_scratch]

So you do seem to have unstable wiring in your house. It sounds like a lot of transients, the transients from when you plug other stuff in in your house shutting down the PSU. The Hydro G has a good transient filter http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=456 so that should not be a problem.

I think a UPS is a good idea. Your wiring in your house seems to be unstable. Why this is happening with only this PSU may actually be a sign that this is a much safer PSU than your Ultra. The FSP PSU is probably detecting these transients and shutting itself off with some protection being triggered, whereas the Ultra doesn't care and poses more of a harm by continuing to run the machine when something is plugged in. When stuff happens from poor wiring, if a PSU like the Ultra does not care, it could pose a risk to your components, so I actually think the FSP is much safer, which is why it's shutting down.

 

[bmcelvan]

I don't think stress testing will solve anything. This only happens when he plugs something into the USB port. It is very strange. His computer can be idle and it will shut down just from putting something into the USB port. bmcelvan, have you tried every USB port? Does this happen for all USB ports? That would rule out a fault with a USB port.

Edit: Wait, so you have your HDD plugged into the PC, you plug the HDD into the wall, and then it shuts off. Correct?

correct, and also a non computer electrical device plugged in somewhere else

 

[bmcelvan]

So you do seem to have unstable wiring in your house. It sounds like a lot of transients, the transients from when you plug other stuff in in your house shutting down the PSU. The Hydro G has a good transient filter http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story5&reid=456 so that should not be a problem.

I think a UPS is a good idea. Your wiring in your house seems to be unstable. Why this is happening with only this PSU may actually be a sign that this is a much safer PSU than your Ultra. The FSP PSU is probably detecting these transients and shutting itself off with some protection being triggered, whereas the Ultra doesn't care and poses more of a harm by continuing to run the machine when something is plugged in. When stuff happens from poor wiring, if a PSU like the Ultra does not care, it could pose a risk to your components, so I actually think the FSP is much safer, which is why it's shutting down.

If I were running into the circuit having too much load on it, the breaker would simply pop right?

You mention "transient." Do you mean the voltage is fluctuating? Probably going too low (or maybe too high) and thus the PSU safety setting kicks on and simply kicks off momentarily? In other words there is a microsecond voltage boost or drop when a new electrical device is plugged into that circuit and the PSU reacts to that?

A USP should correct this issue then, right? The whole point is the USP can tolerate non perfect input current and because of the battery can output a perfect stream of 12V current to the PSU?

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Yes a transient would be a small very short-lived voltage spike. But actually I think it might be complete AC power loss when you plug something in. For one thing, the transient filter on the FSP if flawless. Perhaps the hold-up time isn't quite high enough on that FSP unit. Wait that's what it must be! The FSP Hydro G 650W unit, when it was review, had a hold-up time of 12ms which is below the 16ms ATX specification. This was one of the only drawbacks of this unit. That unit was tested on Tomshardware. Jonnyguru does not test hold-up time, and Jonnyguru reviewed the 750W one, so it may have low hold-up time also. I'm thinking that there is AC power loss when you plug something in due to poor wiring, and the hold-up time is not good enough to keep the PSU running.

Hold-up time is how much time a power supply can keep running when there is a loss of AC power. Hold-up time is important at locations like yours with unstable electrical wiring, as it seems. So, what are the solutions? There are two. You can replace the FSP with a unit with better hold-up time. Or, you can get a UPS, I am confident either will solve your problem. The FSP is a high quality unit, but this may just be an unfortunate situation where your house poses difficulty for this unit.

 

[bmcelvan]

Yes a transient would be a small very short-lived voltage spike. But actually I think it might be complete AC power loss when you plug something in. For one thing, the transient filter on the FSP if flawless. Perhaps the hold-up time isn't quite high enough on that FSP unit. Wait that's what it must be! The FSP Hydro G 650W unit, when it was review, had a hold-up time of 12ms which is below the 16ms ATX specification. This was one of the only drawbacks of this unit. That unit was tested on Tomshardware. Jonnyguru does not test hold-up time, and Jonnyguru reviewed the 750W one, so it may have low hold-up time also. I'm thinking that there is AC power loss when you plug something in due to poor wiring, and the hold-up time is not good enough to keep the PSU running.

Hold-up time is how much time a power supply can keep running when there is a loss of AC power. Hold-up time is important at locations like yours with unstable electrical wiring, as it seems. So, what are the solutions? There are two. You can replace the FSP with a unit with better hold-up time. Or, you can get a UPS, I am confident either will solve your problem. The FSP is a high quality unit, but this may just be an unfortunate situation where your house poses difficulty for this unit.

And an added benefit of a UPS other than fixing the power supply situation is that it is also an excellent surge protector against things like lightning, and major electrical surges, right?

Thanks very much for your help...It's truly appreciated

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Yes a UPS is the safest, and in case of lightning or a brown out you'll have time to safely shut down attached devises. You are welcome! I am confident that that will fix it. As for what type of UPS to get, I am not knowledgeable on UPS units so I'm not the person for that, but there are others on this forum who are.

Also note that I cannot be 100% sure this is the cause of the issue, but when it comes to these things, it is impossible to know 100% for sure. We just have to take an educated guess. I do think the UPS will fix this.

 

[bmcelvan]

Yes a UPS is the safest, and in case of lightning or a brown out you'll have time to safely shut down attached devises. You are welcome! I am confident that that will fix it. As for what type of UPS to get, I am not knowledgeable on UPS units so I'm not the person for that, but there are others on this forum who are.

Also note that I cannot be 100% sure this is the cause of the issue, but when it comes to these things, it is impossible to know 100% for sure. We just have to take an educated guess. I do think the UPS will fix this.

Once I get one installed I'll let you know how it goes.

In no way was I planning on holding you responsible in case the UPS doesn't work...but reading thru the logic of the convo it really does add up.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Yes a UPS is the safest, and in case of lightning or a brown out you'll have time to safely shut down attached devises. You are welcome! I am confident that that will fix it. As for what type of UPS to get, I am not knowledgeable on UPS units so I'm not the person for that, but there are others on this forum who are.

Also note that I cannot be 100% sure this is the cause of the issue, but when it comes to these things, it is impossible to know 100% for sure. We just have to take an educated guess. I do think the UPS will fix this.

Once I get one installed I'll let you know how it goes.

In no way was I planning on holding you responsible in case the UPS doesn't work...but reading thru the logic of the convo it really does add up.

Okay best of luck!

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Hey if you're still there I have another question for you. If you, say, plug a USB-powered device that runs on the computer's USB port power into the USB, does the computer shut off then?

 

[bmcelvan]

Hey if you're still there I have another question for you. If you, say, plug a USB-powered device that runs on the computer's USB port power into the USB, does the computer shut off then?

no it does not...they seem to work fine.

example of flash drives and WD my passports don['t trigger issue

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Hmm did you buy a UPS yet? Because if you didn't I'm starting to think the issue might not be the hold-up time. I forgot the fact that when the PSU is not under heavy load, hold-up time is higher. So your unit could have well had a hold up time of over 16ms in this case.

What if you plug the hard drive into the wall while it's unplugged from the PC while the PC is running? Does that cause any disruption?

One thing you can do is try the Ultra PSU again. If that works fine, I'd say the PSU has a fault and return it. These things come with warranties, or if purchased not long ago returning to the retailer is even better.

Also, try plugging anything else into the wall while like a desk fan and see if the PC shuts off.

 

[bmcelvan]

Hmm did you buy a UPS yet? Because if you didn't I'm starting to think the issue might not be the hold-up time. I forgot the fact that when the PSU is not under heavy load, hold-up time is higher. So your unit could have well had a hold up time of over 16ms in this case.

What if you plug the hard drive into the wall while it's unplugged from the PC while the PC is running? Does that cause any disruption?

One thing you can do is try the Ultra PSU again. If that works fine, I'd say the PSU has a fault and return it. These things come with warranties, or if purchased not long ago returning to the retailer is even better.

Also, try plugging anything else into the wall while like a desk fan and see if the PC shuts off.

I'm pretty sure my computer only uses 200-300W max out of the 750W. I would not consider that heavy load.

yes external hdd on desk. no usb to computer. when i plug ac cable to wall, computer restarts...same as any other electrical device in a nearby outlet

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Ahh okay, nevermind then, UPS it is! That seems to be the solution.

 

[bmcelvan]

Ahh okay, nevermind then, UPS it is! That seems to be the solution.

Of course now that I am home I can only get it to reproduce the problem when I plug in (and unplug) usb3.0 cables to/from the computer to external HDDs when they are also connected to wall power. Plugging other things into the outlet is not triggering the problem right now. However if I unplug the power cord to an external HDD and then plug in and unplug its usb cable, it won't trigger it. So, only when it is powered to the wall will it trigger the reboot.

Still no flash drive or self powered usb external hdd like my WD MyPassport triggers it, only wall powered ext. hdds.

What was your thinking of maybe being a bad fault with the PSU? IF a regular flash drive triggered it?

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Yeah I'm starting to think of a fault with the PSU. It's one of the most bizarre issues I have encountered on here. There is one way you can find out for sure, though. Put back in the Ultra PSU, give it a go, and see if the problem persists. I do think it's a PSU fault, faults do happen with every PSU from every company once in a while.

 

[bmcelvan]

Yeah I'm starting to think of a fault with the PSU. It's one of the most bizarre issues I have encountered on here. There is one way you can find out for sure, though. Put back in the Ultra PSU, give it a go, and see if the problem persists. I do think it's a PSU fault, faults do happen with every PSU from every company once in a while.

I just grabbed an APC BACK-UPS 1080va cause it was on a great sale at Bestbuy (and immediately pickup-able and returnable)

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/Power-Saving-Back-UPS-NS-1080VA/P-BN1080G

and the specs say under the output section that it has a transfer time of "8ms typical: 12ms maximum" so whether or not the hold up time is an/the issue, this should transfer faster than the PSU will hold up for. I wanted one anyway...


I'll let you know later if this has any effect on the reboot issue.

If it doesn't and I swap the PSU back out and the Ultra has the same problem, then it's probably a mobo usb short right?