Radeon HD 7990 Vs. GeForce GTX 690: The Crowd Picks A Winner

[flexxar]

Dons article yesterday showed that with the new drivers the 7990 consistently put up higher max/average FPS than the 690 and also effectively eliminated the majority of issues experienced with crossfire. By the numbers it was the winner,. Now but a only day later this event appears and what do you know "The nvidia feels smoother..." While you have people playing on a jagged eyfinity setup with no frame pacing and then switching over to titles that knowingly don't work on AMD hardware to formulate an opinion about which they prefer... I miss the old toms, the one where I didn't have to read between the lines.

Sounds like you just want a story that concludes AMD won
In this piece, we found that of the admittedly limited audience we could have game testing in one full day, AMD's position in blind testing improved almost to the point of matching Nvidia's 690 if you throw out Metro completely. This is stated clearly.
If you read Don's story yesterday, then you know that Metro's benchmark runs *fine* on both cards. It's only when we started playing the actual game did we learn that the 7990 has an issue. We presented it to AMD before either story went live, and received no feedback.

Here's the deal: between Don's story and mine, you have FCAT data, video data, and blind testing data from people who have nothing to do with AMD or Nvidia. You can ignore our analysis altogether if you want and still have more information in front of you than if these stories didn't go up. You can twist the intention of the game choice however you see fit, but the original plan was Tomb Raider, BioShock, Crysis 3, Grid 2, and Metro. That's three AMD Evolved games, one Intel game, and one Nvidia game. AMD has an issue in Metro--fact. There is no reading between the lines. Everything we meant to say was said.

If this story were my own personal opinion based on the hours that I spend testing and playing with graphics cards, I'd recommend buying two GTX 770s and be done with it. If a friend says, "But Chris, I really want a dual-GPU card, then I tell them that the 690 is a more elegantly-built product and that AMD's solution to its issues is still a beta driver." At $1000, it's 690 all the way. I feel so strongly about the workmanship that went into the actual construction of 690 and Titan that I petitioned Nvidia for access to the guys who came up with the ID for a story that I hope will be coming soon. Given the recent price drops, I imagine there are some folks willing to snag AMD's eight-game bundle and a fast dual-GPU card for $700. Right now, the way things stand, I would not be one. Happy to debate the ins and outs, but I see this as a difference of opinion.

Please rename the article to "Chris picked a winner" instead of the "crowd picked a winner". You are the one who chose to include metro. By your own admission, you say that it had known issues and that without it, they performed exactly the same.

 

[rantoc]

Got both 7970cf and 680sli in different rigs with about the same mb/cpu and have to agree with the subjective result of this test, even thoo the 7970 usually win vs the 680's in pure fps the 680's feels smother and friendlier to the eyes than the fps winning cards.

Its like two cars. One is a tad faster but got a hard clutch and that means the speed comes at the price of a less than a smooth ride between gears while the other - A tad slower car have a good automatic drive so you don't even feel the transition between gears - That pretty much sums up what subjective feel i get from the different setups - One if a finesse card and the other a untamed brute forcer.

The benefit of being brand agnostic, don't let the color/shape of the logo stop you from getting a system tailor-made for your preference - A tad more speed or a smoother ride (in the case of 7970 / 680).

 

[littleleo]

It is a great time to be buying a VGA card right now. The amount of performance you can get vs the price you pay has never been better for the consumer.

 

[cangelini]

Dons article yesterday showed that with the new drivers the 7990 consistently put up higher max/average FPS than the 690 and also effectively eliminated the majority of issues experienced with crossfire. By the numbers it was the winner,. Now but a only day later this event appears and what do you know "The nvidia feels smoother..." While you have people playing on a jagged eyfinity setup with no frame pacing and then switching over to titles that knowingly don't work on AMD hardware to formulate an opinion about which they prefer... I miss the old toms, the one where I didn't have to read between the lines.

Sounds like you just want a story that concludes AMD won
In this piece, we found that of the admittedly limited audience we could have game testing in one full day, AMD's position in blind testing improved almost to the point of matching Nvidia's 690 if you throw out Metro completely. This is stated clearly.
If you read Don's story yesterday, then you know that Metro's benchmark runs *fine* on both cards. It's only when we started playing the actual game did we learn that the 7990 has an issue. We presented it to AMD before either story went live, and received no feedback.

Here's the deal: between Don's story and mine, you have FCAT data, video data, and blind testing data from people who have nothing to do with AMD or Nvidia. You can ignore our analysis altogether if you want and still have more information in front of you than if these stories didn't go up. You can twist the intention of the game choice however you see fit, but the original plan was Tomb Raider, BioShock, Crysis 3, Grid 2, and Metro. That's three AMD Evolved games, one Intel game, and one Nvidia game. AMD has an issue in Metro--fact. There is no reading between the lines. Everything we meant to say was said.

If this story were my own personal opinion based on the hours that I spend testing and playing with graphics cards, I'd recommend buying two GTX 770s and be done with it. If a friend says, "But Chris, I really want a dual-GPU card, then I tell them that the 690 is a more elegantly-built product and that AMD's solution to its issues is still a beta driver." At $1000, it's 690 all the way. I feel so strongly about the workmanship that went into the actual construction of 690 and Titan that I petitioned Nvidia for access to the guys who came up with the ID for a story that I hope will be coming soon. Given the recent price drops, I imagine there are some folks willing to snag AMD's eight-game bundle and a fast dual-GPU card for $700. Right now, the way things stand, I would not be one. Happy to debate the ins and outs, but I see this as a difference of opinion.

To be completely honest I don't really care which on wins. I'm a fan of both sides of the fence, the 760 is my favorite card right now and I really wish I knew it was going to drop a month after I bought my then $250 King 7870 LE.. That said there is no twisting of the game selection, it is what it is. And what it is is that you went from originally planing to use a game where the 7990 worked to one where you full well knew it didn't. If that wasn't enough you actually factored these technical forfeit points into the conclusion of the review ?? If you honestly didn't know that LL would perform that way the results of that test should have simply been omitted and that would have made a lot of people happy because it's the right thing to do instead of appear to favor nvidia by giving the card that lost in dons review free gimmie points. It's all about formulating a public opinion, people will keep a bad taste in their mouth because of the choppy eyfinity set-up they sat down at which just so happens to be the same machine one of the games didn't even work on.. You see where I am going with this ? When it all boils down I am still happy to see positive progress being made with crossfire.

We're also happy positive progress is being made in CrossFire. Competition is what drives innovation (see: the state of our processor reviews).

But I disagree that because AMD has a problem in Metro, with and without Eyefinity or frame-pacing, that it should be ignored. The problem should be fixed so that anyone with an AMD card can enjoy the game if they want to.

With that, I appreciate the constructive feedback guys. I know where we need to focus in the future, should we decide to do an event like this again. All the best!

Chris

 

[flexxar]

Next time pick games that you know amd is going to win and then declare it the winner like you did this time with nvidia.

 

[usbgtx550]

Despite this data, I still feel that the 7990 or 7970 cf is a solid buy. My roomate's computer is running a 7970 cf setup and it runs flawlessly. From his experience I'm looking at buying a second 7850 for crossfire when battlefield 4 comes out.

 

[cmi86]

Dons article yesterday showed that with the new drivers the 7990 consistently put up higher max/average FPS than the 690 and also effectively eliminated the majority of issues experienced with crossfire. By the numbers it was the winner,. Now but a only day later this event appears and what do you know "The nvidia feels smoother..." While you have people playing on a jagged eyfinity setup with no frame pacing and then switching over to titles that knowingly don't work on AMD hardware to formulate an opinion about which they prefer... I miss the old toms, the one where I didn't have to read between the lines.

Sounds like you just want a story that concludes AMD won
In this piece, we found that of the admittedly limited audience we could have game testing in one full day, AMD's position in blind testing improved almost to the point of matching Nvidia's 690 if you throw out Metro completely. This is stated clearly.
If you read Don's story yesterday, then you know that Metro's benchmark runs *fine* on both cards. It's only when we started playing the actual game did we learn that the 7990 has an issue. We presented it to AMD before either story went live, and received no feedback.

Here's the deal: between Don's story and mine, you have FCAT data, video data, and blind testing data from people who have nothing to do with AMD or Nvidia. You can ignore our analysis altogether if you want and still have more information in front of you than if these stories didn't go up. You can twist the intention of the game choice however you see fit, but the original plan was Tomb Raider, BioShock, Crysis 3, Grid 2, and Metro. That's three AMD Evolved games, one Intel game, and one Nvidia game. AMD has an issue in Metro--fact. There is no reading between the lines. Everything we meant to say was said.

If this story were my own personal opinion based on the hours that I spend testing and playing with graphics cards, I'd recommend buying two GTX 770s and be done with it. If a friend says, "But Chris, I really want a dual-GPU card, then I tell them that the 690 is a more elegantly-built product and that AMD's solution to its issues is still a beta driver." At $1000, it's 690 all the way. I feel so strongly about the workmanship that went into the actual construction of 690 and Titan that I petitioned Nvidia for access to the guys who came up with the ID for a story that I hope will be coming soon. Given the recent price drops, I imagine there are some folks willing to snag AMD's eight-game bundle and a fast dual-GPU card for $700. Right now, the way things stand, I would not be one. Happy to debate the ins and outs, but I see this as a difference of opinion.

To be completely honest I don't really care which on wins. I'm a fan of both sides of the fence, the 760 is my favorite card right now and I really wish I knew it was going to drop a month after I bought my then $250 King 7870 LE.. That said there is no twisting of the game selection, it is what it is. And what it is is that you went from originally planing to use a game where the 7990 worked to one where you full well knew it didn't. If that wasn't enough you actually factored these technical forfeit points into the conclusion of the review ?? If you honestly didn't know that LL would perform that way the results of that test should have simply been omitted and that would have made a lot of people happy because it's the right thing to do instead of appear to favor nvidia by giving the card that lost in dons review free gimmie points. It's all about formulating a public opinion, people will keep a bad taste in their mouth because of the choppy eyfinity set-up they sat down at which just so happens to be the same machine one of the games didn't even work on.. You see where I am going with this ? When it all boils down I am still happy to see positive progress being made with crossfire.

We're also happy positive progress is being made in CrossFire. Competition is what drives innovation (see: the state of our processor reviews).

But I disagree that because AMD has a problem in Metro, with and without Eyefinity or frame-pacing, that it should be ignored. The problem should be fixed so that anyone with an AMD card can enjoy the game if they want to.

With that, I appreciate the constructive feedback guys. I know where we need to focus in the future, should we decide to do an event like this again. All the best!

Chris

I fully agree that whatever issues are conflicting the 7XXX CF and metro need to be addressed (not used as free points for the competition in a comparison that is being conducted to devise a "winner") because it is a very fun, very visually entertaining game. It used to play horrendously on ANY AMD config until 4A dropped that patchhttp://www.pcgamer.com/2013/05/16/metro-last-light-fov-patch-released-also-fixes-amd-issues/ and now it plays beautifully on both my 7870 LE and previous 6950 CF ( This is why i think this issue may only effect 7 series CF's) I just wish games weren't so coded for one or the other that they need a patch to even be playable on one or the other. Just write the games and let everyone enjoy them equally regardless of GPU maker.

 

[eddieroolz]

Looked like everyone had a lot of fun while helping to verify the results that Don observed.

 

[brucek2]

My take away from this article is that while there are many areas where Nvidia & AMD offer similar performance; and a few where AMD offers somewhat better performance; there are at least a few gaping traps where AMD just completely fails compared to Nvidia -- such as does not do multi-card surround, and does not play Metro.

My choice would therefore be Nvidia, not so much because I'm preferring it over AMD, but because recently AMD just seems defective or absent. Even if I don't care about any of the known AMD default cases right now, who says my next use case won't be another of them?

Anyway, all of that is temporary. There will be a next generation of cards and results there could be different. The more enduring take way for me is still that for at least most of a year, AMD shipped a defective crossfire solution and didn't acknowledge it and wouldn't have fixed it if they weren't finally called out on it after extensive investigation by the press. I find it implausible AMD did not know about the problem, leaving the likely conclusion that AMD's top management decided to just screw over gamers for as long as they could get away with it. And as long as those same people are still calling the shots, AMD just seems like a trap waiting to happen (or one that is happening and hasn't been discovered yet.)

 

[Marcus52]

"You have one friend who swears by Fords, but only because the company didn’t take any bailout money, you suspect. That sort of fanaticism doesn’t help you—you’re going to actually be driving this thing."

I am highly offended that you would call me a fanatic because I think good business practices are a legitimate reason to favor a company.

 

[06yfz450ridr]

ahh (updated) posted them on the other comparison haha oops

the 13.10 beta drivers are out and this is what their site says

Feature Highlights of The AMD Catalyst 13.10 Beta Driver for Windows:

AMD Catalyst 13.10 Beta includes all of the features/fixes found in AMD Catalyst 13.8 Beta2
PCI-E bus speed is no longer set to x1 on the secondary GPU when running in CrossFire configurations
Rome Total War 2: Updated AMD CrossFire™ profile
improves CrossFire scaling up to 20% (at 2560x1600 with extreme settings)
resolves corruption issues seen while playing the game
Saints Row 4: Updated AMD CrossFire profile
improves CrossFire scaling up to 20% (at 2560x1600 with ultra settings)
Metro Last Light: Updated AMD CrossFire profile
improves CrossFire scaling up to 10% (at 2560x1600 with ultra settings)
Includes a number of frame pacing improvements for the following titles:
Tomb Raider
Metro Last Light
Sniper Elite
World of Warcraft
Max Payne 3
Hitman Absolution

 

[17seconds]

Great article. It's no surprise that Nvidia's hardware-level frame pacing, in use for over two years, is better than AMD's just released beta-driver software solution that's "still a work in progress".

I would actually like to see this type of blind side-by-side testing on single cards. Earlier this year, the Tech Report similarly uncovered microstutter in AMD's single cards. The issue was apparently quickly fixed... or was it? Either way, it's still an important question, which cards deliver the most fluid gameplay experience?


And a note for Chris A., it's too bad you have to be subjected to all that vitriol and denial. It's not your supposed bias, or the games you used, or the drivers you used, or the sequence of the test, or the amount of people in the room; this crap happens in every review where AMD doesn't match up. You called it, people just want to hear what they want to hear, and attack anything that doesn't match their preconceived conclusion.

 

[saudagar]

The AMD Catalyst 13.10 Beta just released and supports the Metro last Light with frame pacing support, maybe that would change the tides

 

[Drakan]

This test is made by people decision.

I didn't read the beginning, but you told the guys which gaming rig had which hardware ? So instead of choosing Nvidia or AMD they would say "1 or 2" so the decision wouldn't be biased (even if they are not fanboys, human mind is tricky)

 

[yannigr]

What a coincidence. 13.10 is out. I guess someone who is going to do a full review and organize an event forgot to ask AMD if they where about to publish a new driver. Another coincidence. Half games of the test get an improvement with the new beta driver.

 

[jrizzz]

Great article and great event. Wish i could've been there to celebrate with you guys. I mean, there really is nothing better than food, tech, and some quality craft beer lol

 

[flexxar]

Great article. It's no surprise that Nvidia's hardware-level frame pacing, in use for over two years, is better than AMD's just released beta-driver software solution that's "still a work in progress".

I would actually like to see this type of blind side-by-side testing on single cards. Earlier this year, the Tech Report similarly uncovered microstutter in AMD's single cards. The issue was apparently quickly fixed... or was it? Either way, it's still an important question, which cards deliver the most fluid gameplay experience?


And a note for Chris A., it's too bad you have to be subjected to all that vitriol and denial. It's not your supposed bias, or the games you used, or the drivers you used, or the sequence of the test, or the amount of people in the room; this crap happens in every review where AMD doesn't match up. You called it, people just want to hear what they want to hear, and attack anything that doesn't match their preconceived conclusion.

There was just too much evidence of bias for me to keep my mouth shut. In Don's article, he kept all of the games that Tom's uses for all of their benchmarks. He specifically left out Metro because of known driver issues, but he did note it in the article. Then Chris writes an article that adds games that amd was known to do bad in and removes games that amd was known to do well in. Even in the comments, he thoroughly states his bias towards nvidia. In the article, he gets 6 people per test to vote on a system and most of the tests are won by one vote. That is not a proper statistical analysis of anything. I bet if he went back the next day, he would have completely different results.

I'll sum it up for you...
A self proclaimed nvidia enthusiast (in the comment section) sets up a rigged test (adding and removing games to give the edge to nvidia) and then tests only 6 people per test. He even states that without metro (had known issues before the test), they both performed the same. When most of the tests were won by only one vote, he declares "The crowd picks a winner".

If he took science and statistics like that to the scientific community for anything, he would have been laughed right out the door. It's BS all the way through. I wouldn't be so upset if he didn't announce that there was a winner when there was clearly not enough evidence to declare one.

 

[brucek2]

What a coincidence. 13.10 is out. I guess someone who is going to do a full review and organize an event forgot to ask AMD if they where about to publish a new driver. Another coincidence. Half games of the test get an improvement with the new beta driver.

By that logic none of these tech sites could ever review a graphics card. Articles usually take several weeks to create, and if a driver from one or the other mfrs didn't come out during that time, its a sure bet there'll be one shortly.

The relevant factor to me is that these cards and games have mostly already been out for months, or at least weeks. If the purpose of these articles is to inform gamer customers, your post seems to be implying that customers should have been OK waiting all these weeks/months before playing these games. But that's not OK with me. Games and cards have shelf lifes of relevancy, and these drivers are already very very late for a card that has already consumed a significant fraction of the time during which it will be king of the hill.

 

[cmi86]

Great article. It's no surprise that Nvidia's hardware-level frame pacing, in use for over two years, is better than AMD's just released beta-driver software solution that's "still a work in progress".

I would actually like to see this type of blind side-by-side testing on single cards. Earlier this year, the Tech Report similarly uncovered microstutter in AMD's single cards. The issue was apparently quickly fixed... or was it? Either way, it's still an important question, which cards deliver the most fluid gameplay experience?


And a note for Chris A., it's too bad you have to be subjected to all that vitriol and denial. It's not your supposed bias, or the games you used, or the drivers you used, or the sequence of the test, or the amount of people in the room; this crap happens in every review where AMD doesn't match up. You called it, people just want to hear what they want to hear, and attack anything that doesn't match their preconceived conclusion.

Denial ?? He INTENTIONALLY dropped a KNOWN WORKING TITLE for a KNOWN NON WORKING TITLE and then proceeded to even give the 690 the points from that round when he knew full well it wasn't going to work to begin with, That's not denial on my part, it's BS on HIS part and Toms. If you agree with this behavior then I am sorry to inform you but it is indeed you who is in denial.

 

[littleleo]

Wow just watching the AMD fan boys going up in flames is amazing. Hey guys the NSA pays AMD to put spy code in their CPUs, APU, and GPUs. Now lets see the fireworks.

 

[brucek2]

Denial ?? He INTENTIONALLY dropped a KNOWN WORKING TITLE for a KNOWN NON WORKING TITLE and then proceeded to even give the 690 the points from that round when he knew full well it wasn't going to work to begin with, That's not denial on my part, it's BS on HIS part and Toms. If you agree with this behavior then I am sorry to inform you but it is indeed you who is in denial.

Is there a non working title for nvidia that was intentionally excluded? Because if so that's the type of bias I'd want to know about. Otherwise the fact that there are one or more AAA titles that play poorly on a card seems like important information to me and entirely worthy of highlighting in a review.

In fact, I'd be happy if the reviews for all cards included a section on the top handful of mainstream situations in which that card struggled. Those are typically the situations that most concern me as a buyer -- assuming I sized my system right for my requirements in the first place, its the surprises that are going to get me, not the most typical / average / safest cases.

Of course I understand that using the same bench-marking friendly titles over and over makes the most sense as far as being able to compare reviews/systems over time.

 

[cmi86]

Wow just watching the AMD fan boys going up in flames is amazing. Hey guys the NSA pays AMD to put spy code in their CPUs, APU, and GPUs. Now lets see the fireworks.

I suppose you probably missed that comment about the GTX-760 being my favorite card atm...

 

[cmi86]

Denial ?? He INTENTIONALLY dropped a KNOWN WORKING TITLE for a KNOWN NON WORKING TITLE and then proceeded to even give the 690 the points from that round when he knew full well it wasn't going to work to begin with, That's not denial on my part, it's BS on HIS part and Toms. If you agree with this behavior then I am sorry to inform you but it is indeed you who is in denial.

Is there a non working title for nvidia that was intentionally excluded? Because if so that's the type of bias I'd want to know about. Otherwise the fact that there are one or more AAA titles that play poorly on a card seems like important information to me and entirely worthy of highlighting in a review.

In fact, I'd be happy if the reviews for all cards included a section on the top handful of mainstream situations in which that card struggled. Those are typically the situations that most concern me as a buyer -- assuming I sized my system right for my requirements in the first place, its the surprises that are going to get me, not the most typical / average / safest cases.

Of course I understand that using the same bench-marking friendly titles over and over makes the most sense as far as being able to compare reviews/systems over time.

Thing is they were supposed to be comparing the game play quality of the 2 cards, not the compatibility issues. These compatibility issues have already been pointed out and well known for quite some time I don't see the sense in intentionally injecting one of these titles in to a competition to see which card "Plays" games better when the title is not even playable. I have no issues with Don pointing it out in the driver review article and the omitted the results because they were an obvious technical issue. I have a problem with someone intentionally injecting a known issue game in to a game play competition and then awarding points based on this. You have to be able to PLAY a game to judge it's game PLAY experience. It feels like to me this title was intentionally placed to instill a negative impression. I'm not trying to flame, I'm trying to point out obvious BS. If it were the other way and this was happening to a green card id be the same way because it's not about the card maker, its about the principle.

 

[cmi86]

My opinion on this matter stays the same and no amount of argument will change my mind. This article and several others go to quite obviously show that it's not always a fair draw in these reviews and comparisons and that regardless of professional neutrality personal opinion almost always plays a role to some effect, don't believe me read below. That being said I really have nothing more to say so I will digress before I am painted as a flame baiting troll for simply pointing out the truth, the truth that may contradict popular opinion but none the less the truth.

" I tell them that the 690 is a more elegantly-built product and that AMD's solution to its issues is still a beta driver." At $1000, it's 690 all the way. I feel so strongly about the workmanship that went into the actual construction of 690 and Titan that I petitioned Nvidia for access to the guys who came up with the ID for a story that I hope will be coming soon."

Angelini's words not mine.

 

[littleleo]

Wow just watching the AMD fan boys going up in flames is amazing. Hey guys the NSA pays AMD to put spy code in their CPUs, APU, and GPUs. Now lets see the fireworks.

I suppose you probably missed that comment about the GTX-760 being my favorite card atm...

No, I didn't.