Real News on the Japanese Reactors would be nice

[Reynod]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/gillard-defends-insensitive-rudd-20110313-1bt24.html

Despite getting into a bit of hot water at home over his comments, it appears Foreign Minsister Kevin Rudd seems to be the only politician on planet earth who has the ballz to ask the question directly ...

"What is the status of those reactors ... what help do you need?

The news coming from all sources appears to be getting more innaccurate ... mainly due to the fact that the Japanese Government are not telling anyone anything.

Is this because the company who owns the reactors don't want to tell us anything?

No news is good news?

I don't think so.

This whole issue smells.

News reporters are now inventing stories to fill the gaps ... and idiots are uploading doom video on the tube ... in the last 24 hours nothing new has been passed on ... only rumour.

Those stories are creating confusion and anxiety.

The Japanese Govenment needs to step up to the plate and take a few swings.

/end rant

 

[buwish]

I agree 100%! A clear, informative statement from either the company who operates the plant or the government is needed to parlay fears. Even if the situation isn't ideal, the more information on it, the better so the people around it know what is going on and so other governments know what to send/offer in terms of help.

 

[strangestranger]

The japanese are in a bit of a pickle with regards to releasing news, many people exaggerate things and so they run the risk of things being sensationalised(like the explosions) and people panicking or they do not tell enough and have a general complacency around the issue. Seeing as the word nuclear is mentioned I don't think people are going to be complacent so the less panic the better as being frank is not a good idea with us laymen sometimes.

If the media of the world were more controlled if that is the right word then it might be better but accuracy is not a strong point. Ratings and "news" are more important so I doubt if more openness was used things would be reported well.

 

[buwish]

By controlled, I think you are getting at having a set of standards that all news organizations must adhere to? I believe that there are standards now, but they are a bit "loose," i.e. not as stringent as they should be. I'm all for freedom of the press, but there should be standards on what can be reported and when in certain instances like this.

 

[christop]

Chernobyl times 6...

 

[Reynod]

The cooling ponds are more of a worry.

 

[Crashman]

The cooling ponds are more of a worry.

You are exactly right. All we have right now is speculation that spent fuel rods that react too slowly to power the plant are being exposed, reacting just fast enough to build heat faster than it can be released, and possibly even beginning to vaporize. And if that gets to full force, you have a "Chernoble" that looks like a torch rather than a firecracker.

 

[buwish]

No, Chernobyl had no containment vessel around it's reactor. Chernobyl's core melted through the floor producing the infamous "elephant foot". This can't happen here. The vessel is designed to withstand 5000° C. The core, even if "melted down" will burn at 3000° C. So worst case scenario is a giant lead building around the plant eventually, but nowhere near the amount of radiation release. A fraction of it actually. Remember, Chernobyl's core was exploded up and out from the plant in all directions. That can't happen with the containment vessels in this case.

Indeed. The Soviets cut a lot of corners on Chernobyl and various other plants to save money and time at the expense of safety. As mentioned, there has been some radiation release and there could be more from the actual reactors themselves, but it will be nowhere near the amount of radiation released from Chernobyl, i.e. a huge radiation cloud that will travel throughout Asia and such. As reynod and crashman mentioned, the big concern are the cooling ponds where the spent fuel is stored. If cooling capabilities are lost in these ponds there is nothing to stop the radiation emitting from the spent fuel, whether it is on fire or not. That should be the primary concern right now for sure.

 

[Crashman]

If cooling capabilities are lost in these ponds there is nothing to stop the radiation emitting from the spent fuel, whether it is on fire or not. That should be the primary concern right now for sure.

Genius! The question I have is, if there is no "nuclear fire", where are the heavy elements they keep detecting coming from?

 

[Crashman]

I saw a report last night (Eastern US time) that a power line to the plant was nearly complete. If that's true they can get the pumps running again. Good news.

I saw a report that the backup-generators were taken out by the tsunami. Big Question: If you're building near the ocean, why would your backup generators be within reach of a tsunami?

 

[Crashman]

Excellent question!

It appears that GE designed a really good quake proof plant for them. It would seem that the Japanese miscalculated/screwed up in deciding to build it on the ocean. You're right about the generators. Couldn't you remotely locate them in the mountains and just run power lines? Expensive yes, but much more reliable.

I think they wanted them local to the plant to avoid issues with torn power lines. My thought would be to put them on top of the plant instead of at ground level. Yes, you have to pump the diesel up to the tanks, but that would have been a small price to pay for the added security.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Dailytech's Jason Mick has an opinion piece on the fear-mongering news stories going around, esp. the ones by MSNBC. http://www.dailytech.com/EDITORIAL+MSNBCcom+Report+on+US+Nuclear+Risks+Features+Many+Flaws/article21150.htm

Unfortunately Jason's statistics that he uses to contradict those of MSNBC are also flawed, esp. the one about a meltdown every 750 years for each reactor. Should have been the chances of a meltdown for all reactors, not just one. Nevertheless, I totally agree with him that the alarmists and fear-mongerers are having a field day with this one, and it'll set back by a considerable amount, an essential and statistically safer form of energy that coal or oil (which kill more people albeit at a slower rate).

 

[Crashman]

For days CNN et al have been putting anti-nuke power activist on TV and touting them as "nuclear experts". I've googled severl of these people and they have clear track records going back decades as anti-nuclear activists. Once again, a news network trying to make news rather than report it.

Look, the hippy leftovers have a vision of a world that is nothing more than a group of communes. The only problem is that communes get some of their supplies, such as tools, from the outside industrial world. Their de-industrialization goals can only end with lives that are nasty, brutish, and short.

 

[buwish]

Genius! The question I have is, if there is no "nuclear fire", where are the heavy elements they keep detecting coming from?

If they aren't on fire, which has happened a few times though and released quite a bit of radiation, you'll get a release of radiation from steam due to the water they were dumping in the pools and the reactors themselves. Plus, another way to look at it would be like so: Imagine taking one of these spent fuel rods and placing it in a sealed room with just you in the room (I don't recommend taking a used fuel rod or sitting in a room with one). It may not light up, but it sure as heck will be emitting tons of radiation. If you had Geigerer counter, it would be going nuts and surely, you'd probably have radiation poisoning in minutes. My point is that the pools are sealed like the rest of reactor and with the spent rods uncovered, you'll get radiation seeping off of them like none other.

That's my theory anyhow. I'm not a nuclear engineer or a physicist (far from it, actually), so I'm probably very wrong, but it seems plausible.

This incident though does not change my opinion of nuclear power. As mentioned, a lot of these so called experts that the networks have had on are indeed against nuclear power (I checked as well) and while they are entitled to their opinions, their fear mongering hasn't worked on me and I hope not on others. I think that nuclear power is the future or at least until we can come up with some other form of energy creation, i.e. fusion power, which actually is being worked on in Europe in the form of a small-experimental reactor. I've lived in the "shadow" of a nuclear power plant my whole life and nothing bad has ever happened to me or anyone I know because of it, which is why I'm in favor of nuclear power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_County_Nuclear_Generating_Station).

If you run a plant right and follow through on all safety measures, it is my opinion that they are very sefficientffecient in comparison to traditional forms of power generation (unless you build it in an area open to natural disasters and such).

In regard to Japan, it seems like things are keeping the status quo or improving slightly, which is good news. Hopefully they can gain control of the reactors in the coming days-weeks and put this incident to rest. However, I'm curious to know if they'll be forced to build Chernsarcophagus'saphagouses around a few of the reactors if the cores indeed melted down.

 

[Crashman]

If they aren't on fire, which has happened a few times though and released quite a bit of radiation, you'll get a release of radiation from steam due to the water they were dumping in the pools and the reactors themselves. Plus, another way to look at it would be like so: Imagine taking one of these spent fuel rods and placing it in a sealed room with just you in the room (I don't recommend taking a used fuel rod or sitting in a room with one). It may not light up, but it sure as heck will be emitting tons of radiation. If you had Geigerer counter, it would be going nuts and surely, you'd probably have radiation poisoning in minutes. My point is that the pools are sealed like the rest of reactor and with the spent rods uncovered, you'll get radiation seeping off of them like none other.

That's my theory anyhow. I'm not a nuclear engineer or a physicist (far from it, actually), so I'm probably very wrong, but it seems plausible.

This incident though does not change my opinion of nuclear power. As mentioned, a lot of these so called experts that the networks have had on are indeed against nuclear power (I checked as well) and while they are entitled to their opinions, their fear mongering hasn't worked on me and I hope not on others. I think that nuclear power is the future or at least until we can come up with some other form of energy creation, i.e. fusion power, which actually is being worked on in Europe in the form of a small-experimental reactor. I've lived in the "shadow" of a nuclear power plant my whole life and nothing bad has ever happened to me or anyone I know because of it, which is why I'm in favor of nuclear power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaSalle_County_Nuclear_Generating_Station).

If you run a plant right and follow through on all safety measures, it is my opinion that they are very sefficientffecient in comparison to traditional forms of power generation (unless you build it in an area open to natural disasters and such).

In regard to Japan, it seems like things are keeping the status quo or improving slightly, which is good news. Hopefully they can gain control of the reactors in the coming days-weeks and put this incident to rest. However, I'm curious to know if they'll be forced to build Chernsarcophagus'saphagouses around a few of the reactors if the cores indeed melted down.

I understand that you can irradiate things with the spit-off particles. That would lead to radioactive...lots of things, but stuff like Cesium wouldn't just magically appear. For that to happen, the metal itself (rather than its subatomic particles) must escape containment.

 

[Reynod]

Yes your quite correct.

That is how we knew the water level in the containment pool had dropped.

The containment pool was always going to be the bigger issue.

Hopefully the external power they are running in can get the main pumps up and running soon.

 

[Crashman]

Yes your quite correct.

That is how we knew the water level in the containment pool had dropped.

The containment pool was always going to be the bigger issue.

Hopefully the external power they are running in can get the main pumps up and running soon.

I'm just waiting for this thing to get hot enough to melt a large portion of the metal pellets in open air, spewing vaporized metal like a welding rod. Remember that they said these rods can reach 2000° F on their own, but the boiling point of Cesium is only 1240° F. One need only reach the melting point of the pellets before the cesium comes boiling out.

 

[buwish]

It sounds like they are close to getting the power line back up to run the cooling pumps for reactors one and two. However, the spent fuel storage of reactor three is still being a pain, as that is the one that they are spraying down with water trucks and dumping water on with helicopters. Reactor 4's holding pool may not have any water in it at all at this point. Who knows. All I know is that based upon the photos of the reactors, some of them are messed up pretty bad thanks to the hydrogen explosions.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Look, the hippy leftovers have a vision of a world that is nothing more than a group of communes. The only problem is that communes get some of their supplies, such as tools, from the outside industrial world. Their de-industrialization goals can only end with lives that are nasty, brutish, and short.

LOL - I'm considering stealing that for a sig line. If I ever get into a hippy forum that is..

Hey Reynod - can you start a leftover Hippy forum?? I think Badge would love to sign up, and maybe SS too .

 

[badge]

GE brings good things to life. Like some of our x-ray equiptment was built by Siemans in a joint venture with GE. The older reactors were retrofitted in the 80's. As someone already said, being as old and outdated as they are their structural integrity did well with what it had.

Now wind currents have moved radiation into So. CA. the levels are estimated at one billionth of what is needed to kill you. Like the levels a common chest x-ray would produce. I didn't know radiation levels regarding a chest x-ray were even detectable with a good quality geiger counter-type measuring/testing device. In the wind current and delivered already within our atmosphere, the radiation is not blocked like the radioactive rays of the sun are by our ozone and atmosphere. The radioactive rays of the sun would kill us all instantly if not for the distance the sun is from earth and our protective upper atmosphere. In short...if you live near me, wear a lead suit.

Hippie forum? For real man.

 

[badge]

Sandbag the reactor. Air drop sand and fill it in.

 

[badge]

LOL. Potassium is good. Brings life to my legs. Fish oil and bananas today despite my lead apron and face mask.

 

[badge]

So. CA has sold out of bananas.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

LOL. Potassium is good. Brings life to my legs. Fish oil and bananas today despite my lead apron and face mask.

Or you could do like the Chinese who are reportedly buying all the iodized salt they can find. Wish I had stock in Morton's salted away (pun intended).

 

[badge]

Thyroid cancer prevention? Now there something new for old hippies to consider. You and me. I know a guy who's probably immune from eating his stash of salt when he saw the red lights pulling him over. A 60's thing. A time when the average Peace Officer asked, "Is that Morton's insense?"