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dagger

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So, what reason do Apple users who hate Windows to the bone have for even appearing in Windows 7 forum? We should have a selective-ban system. Some people are banned from certain parts of the forum that they're likely to flame in. :whistle:
 

Scotteq

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In 7:

Open the control panel
Select the User Accounts icon

There is a link there to turn UAC on or off

Once in there, use the slider to select the level you want. There are 4 settings

(1)
- Notify when programs try to install programs or make changes to my computer
- Notify me when I make changes to Windows settings or Programs try to make changes...


(2)
- when programs try to install
- when programs try to make changes

(3)
- Doesn't notify when the user makes changes to Windows Settings, but will notify if a Program tries (This is the Default Setting)

(4) Off


When you are done, save changes. Turning UAC from off to on, or from on to off requires a restart.



 

notherdude

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This is why it is optional. For some people any kind of security is a needless annoyance. No one requires that you run AV or UAC. I would still argue that this is unwise even for experienced users but this is a matter of taste and I respect your choice.

Malware is a serious problem and many systems simply cannot be left unprotected. Even if the user doesn't care an unprotected machine can spread malware to others. Best to have a high level of security be the default. Most casual and business users - the vast majority of actual Windows customers - install a few apps after OS install and then go months without adding new ones are upgrading drivers. They really don't see the prompts all that much.
 

V8VENOM

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Vista x64 Ultimate, Business and 32bit flavors - part of my job is also to ensure the software I code works on the various flavors of Vista (and WinXP and Win2K and Win2K3).

If you have security turned up, yes you will get prompted everytime (even if you copy a file from a networked drive to your local hard drive).

I have no motivation, I make a living from coding software to run on Microsoft's OS. Also code software to run on OS X but currently can't really say I make a living on the Mac side yet (but soon, especially with iPhone), but I am seeing viable numbers now for OS X. Choice is always a good thing.

My only motivation is to try and get Microsoft to move in a direction that is good for the end user, good for developers, and good for making a computer a useful tool, rather than a tweakers fascination and end user prompt feast.

The driver validation database is going to be a disaster and is really just another way for Microsoft to extract money out of development efforts to get one's drivers "approved". The reality is that Microsoft already do this via WHQL certificaiton -- only it's currently optional, now it will be required and cost. But who do you think will ultimately pay for that additional cost?? Yes, the end user as it will get passed on -- you can thank Microsoft for that.

Ballmer has openly said that security is an end user problem not OS problem, and he continues on that philosophy. The reality is that end users aren't accepting his philosophy and they are expecting (and paying for) security to be manage by the OS in such a way that it does not involve them or has very very minimal involvement. And this can be accomplished at the OS level, but isn't. You can absolutely distinguish between code triggered events and real mouse/keyboard and/or other device events. Any device you connect directly to a computer has a unique identification. The user context is known, but Microsoft just don't wanna deal with it -- why, because it would require a serious re-write of the OS code base, something they are apparently not prepared to do.

Windows 7 was originally going to be considerably different - from scratch. However, due to how long it took OS dev team to get Vista done (5 years and that was based on a Win2K code set) the word came down that the next OS version MUST come out sooner. Sooo, we have Vista SP2 being called Windows 7. And Microsoft Ad campaign calling users stupid and/or not making much sense at all.

This is yet more Ballmer arrogance and business as usual. But honestly doesn't really matter to me in the long run, I shift to what people want/buy and people are shifting and hence why I keep my skill set diverse enough so that whatever Microsoft do or don't do, I can transition.

 

notherdude

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If you have security turned up, yes you will get prompted everytime (even if you copy a file from a networked drive to your local hard drive).
UAC at default coming up very time? Every time what? LOL This is a joke. It comes up when I said it does.

Every time you copy from a network drive? The topic here was UAC coming up every time you run a program!!

Anyway I have UAC on fully and I get no prompt from copying a file from a network drive - I just conformed that. Even if in some cases I am unfamiliar with it does prompt you for a network copy then so what? This is not at all what we were talking about.

The driver validation database is going to be a disaster and is really just another way for Microsoft to extract money out of development efforts to get one's drivers "approved". The reality is that Microsoft already do this via WHQL certificaiton -- only it's currently optional, now it will be required and cost. But who do you think will ultimately pay for that additional cost?? Yes, the end user as it will get passed on -- you can thank Microsoft for that.
More totally unsupported FUD. Are you even serious. Bad drivers plagued Vista at the outset and are widely known to cause most stability problems. This is exactly the kind of thing MS needs to do if it wants to keep Windows in the same league with Mac when it comes to maintaining a CONSISTENT quality of user experience. Will it be costly to some small time vendors, possibly, it's too early to say how it will all go down but clearly MS needs to avoid the kinds of issues that are plaguing the OS and causing the loss of share.

As to the mouse click thing you have simply reiterated your opinion that it is possible to achieve a wall between user and admin modes by determining the source of the initiation - I find your opinion unconvincing - you could have a point and if you can document this I will acknowledge that you MIGHT have an alternate way. As it stands both Mac and Linux also require YOU to give admin credentials.

As to rewriting the entire OS in a different way to achieve security without manually going into admin: 1. you say so but that does not make it so and 2. even if it is possible that does not make it necessarily practical
 

kubes

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@Scott
That's exactly what i'm talkign about. These are not nearly custimizable. They need to be able to do it on a app by app basics. Simlar to how Norton Firewall does it. I'm not saying this is an ideal way to handle the situation either but, I had to turn this off due to inadiquate fucntiality completely. I needed some programs to allows allow through but not others. No way of setting these types of things.

 

IzzyCraft

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Windows 7 is Vista without bloat supposly the pre alpha build was displeasing seemed very vista. And they seem to find out a way to break every imporant program i want to run from os to os. Maybe the later builds will be father away from vista and just be the annoying kernal. UAC should be able to distingush from user generated events and non and only prompt on non imo that should be a setting. They should have a look like xp feature so people can hide their vista shame if they have any.
 

V8VENOM

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Yes OS X does, during any install you will be prompted once and only once. You are NOT prompted everytime you run the program.

I seriously doubt you use Vista x64? SSMS (SQL Server Management Studio) will prompt me to "Allow" every time I try to launch it if I have UAC enable. As does VS 2008. About the only apps that don't is the MS Office 2007 suite (gee I wonder why). What version of Vista are you running? And what kind of software do you run?

Every device attached to your PC is assigned a unique identifier, how can I make this more clear to you? If you don't believe me go read the link below.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms791080.aspx

You want me to list a code sample on how you identify a USB device and read it's input? If malware emulates a mouse click, mouse position change, or keyboard input event it will have a different identification source. Vista and/or any Microsoft OS does no checking on source.

So long as Windows 7 retains the layers of compatibility going back thru the last 3 decades, it will be bloated. They've also stepped up DRM and other anti-piracey services that are always running.

Strange, I can buy stuff for my Mac that has nothing to do with Apple and includes drivers -- don't talk about Mac's unless you really know what you're talking about. I have Motu Ultralite (firewire audio interface) that has drivers (nothing to do with Apple), installs just fine without an "verification" from Apple. So you really should stop talking about stuff you don't know.

I've not installed a single 3rd party Mac driver yet that has caused OS X to crash and burn -- and I have a lot of non-Apple hardware connected to my Mac. Apparently driver problems don't plague the Mac like they do in Vista.

 

Scotteq

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Understood :)

So, something along the lines of being able to right click a program, click 'Properties', and from there designate the program's default access/prompt level? Would that be an accurate description? If so I agree, and would like this myself.

I suppose if they were serious about creating that (and MSFT should be), I would like that to be linked to the Superadmin and/or admin accounts rather than a regular user. Though I can see there's a couple arguments around that subject - One being that functionality on that order would/should be more applicable in a business or server environment than for a home user. Another coming from the "All Users Are Stupid" school of thought saying that many of the people who need this kind of protection most are the very ones who are too lazy/dumb to bother to learn. < shrug>

Interesting that MSFT are making some (small) steps towards a 'Chinese Menu' kind of approach - At the moment, it's only some of the lesser apps/utilities. But it'd be nice to be able to buy the OS, then reach out over the web to customize it. Kinda like vLite in reverse...
 

notherdude

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I seriously doubt you use Vista x64? SSMS (SQL Server Management Studio) will prompt me to "Allow" every time I try to launch it if I have UAC enable. As does VS 2008. About the only apps that don't is the MS Office 2007 suite (gee I wonder why). What version of Vista are you running? And what kind of software do you run?
You are simply dead wrong about how often UAC prompts. I have Visual Studio 2008 BTW, on Vista 64, it absofreakinglutely does not bring up a prompt! I just tried it. I am suspecting you are making stuff up here because your supposed experience of UAC is not the norm at all.
Essentially NONE of my programs require a prompt - only new installs and the like.

Every device attached to your PC is assigned a unique identifier, how can I make this more clear to you? If you don't believe me go read the link below.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms791080.aspx

You want me to list a code sample on how you identify a USB device and read it's input? If malware emulates a mouse click, mouse position change, or keyboard input event it will have a different identification source. Vista and/or any Microsoft OS does no checking on source.
This means nothing, show me, as I asked you, how this is so secure that it could not be faked or otherwise circumvented by genius malware coders who can break just about any security scheme?? So far I have your word for it. I'm not saying it's impossible. maybe this is an alternate way, but so far you have not done anything to convince me this isn't idle speculation by an obviously agenda driven Apple lover.
 

V8VENOM

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notherdude,

Genius malware coders?? ha ha -- sorry that is funny, trust me, a genius doesn't waste time coding malware.

You are so ignorant to the facts of security exploits -- most exploits are done by novices that probably don't have any professional level coding experience -- if they did, they would be well paid and employed with little need to create malware. And that's why it's pretty shocking just how easy it is to exploit a Microsoft OS -- cause you really don't need to be a Genius, novice coder at best.

Sorry my link means nothing to you, so I shall not post any code because that would clearly mean even less to you then. Show you?? I'm trying but apparently you really don't want to know. How can I show you? You've exclude all avenues of how I can do this.

So apparently you're the ONLY person that doesn't get prompted by the UAC. You sure you haven't already been exploited cause the rest of the Vista world of users does get prompted with UAC on.

Not really sure why you're even debating Vista, it's long since been accepted as a 5 Billion dollar flop. You have some vested interest in Windows 7 and/or Vista??

I'm pointing out that Windows 7 is not gonna hack it -- SSDD. If Microsoft want an OS to sell and be proud of, they need to do few things:

1. Assume security responsibility
2. Figure out how to provide compatibility without penalizing those that don't need it
3. Don't let drivers take down the entire OS
4. Stop prompting users with questions they can't answer

All of these could have been accomplished already if Ballmer was not so caught up in the money machine called Microsoft. Real rewards come with innovation and providing the tools users want -- so far and apparently in the future Micrsoft still have no plans to do either.
 

notherdude

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still ignoring that I asked you to prove the mouse click thing is UNHACKABLE, maybe just copy and paste that part, I'll be waiting, along with a detailed report as to exactly how you will replace UAC with your mouse click tool

so all malware writers are idiots eh, prove that one too please, fact is security GETS BUSTED, it's fact, it all gets busted, genius or no genius, get it? UAC puts up a wall in a different level of the system, it too is not unbreakable but it is INHERENTLY MUCH LESS breakable.



please stop the strawman arguments - burden is on you to prove the laughable idea that UAC routinely prompts you just to run ordinary programs - good luck with that lie - it's patently idiotic!! dead wrong

It only comes up when you are going to alter system files and install programs and drivers - if I go to run 'computer management' then yes, I get prompted, firefox, no, VS8 no, Office, no, process explorer, no, vlc media player, no, adobe anything, no, not in dreaweaver, not in photoshop, not in reader . . just checked all that stuff . . itunes, no, foobar, no, games, no, VMware?? no, sorry, cyberlink, no, nero, no, want more?

How about independant proof: from wiki:

Tasks that trigger a UAC prompt

Operating system commands or actions that require administrator rights (and will thus trigger UAC) are marked with the security shield symbol.Tasks that require administrator privileges will trigger a UAC prompt (if UAC is enabled) are typically marked by a 4-color security shield symbol. In the case of executable files, the icon will have a security shield overlay. Ed Bott's Windows Vista Inside Out lists the following tasks which require administrator privileges:[5]

Changes to system-wide settings or to files in %SystemRoot% or %ProgramFiles%
Installing and uninstalling applications
Installing device drivers
Installing ActiveX controls
Changing settings for Windows Firewall
Changing UAC settings
Configuring Windows Update
Adding or removing user accounts
Changing a user’s account type
Configuring Parental Controls
Running Task Scheduler
Restoring backed-up system files
Viewing or changing another user’s folders and files
I'll be waiting for your rebuttal to Ed Bott, the author of 'Windows Vista: inside/out' on this. Lacking that all I can suggest is that you stop getting your Vista facts from Apple Ads and Starbucks discussions among the unemployed Mac addicts. Vista shame. LOL, it's all about being cool for you isn't it.

I'm really sorry to pop your childish bubble that UAC is some cop from hell.
 

V8VENOM

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Not ignoring you, your comments just don't make sense as there is nothing to hack at this level and your comments just emphasizes your lack of understanding how a process/code can gain access to your OS.

Many of the applications I run, require administrator privileges, I'm a developer aka software engineer. So yes, I run a lot of application under Administrator (aka "Run as Administrator"). Many non-developer type applicaitons also require this as well as their installers because not all applications were written with Vista in mind (in fact very few).

Sorry but your exhibiting babble now and have started in on the name calling and pulling comments out of the ether that simply were never said like "so all malware writers are idiots" -- certainly not what I said -- it's like talking to someone that is getting his/her information from a book on Vista for Dummies. It's no longer a debate, as you are just being a ego-centric argumentive prick. Sorry but you were begging for the insult.

"being cool" - oh brother, you really have gone over the deep end
 

notherdude

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most exploits are done by novices that probably don't have any professional level coding experience
OK, maybe 'idiots' was a bit rash, but the main point remains. These 'novices' have broken just about every security scheme out there are. LOL You are showing your own immaturity and egotism here.

So you acknowledge that most programs DON'T require a prompt now? That IS what this was all about. Not even the developer tools like Visual Studio 8 which you explicitly named, I checked, remember? Sure some developer tools will, if they have system access, but the vast majority of programs DO NOT. This entire flame war was initiated when I corrected another poster on that point and you defended it.

As for the 'vista shame' comment, sorry, I confused you with another poster above, Izzy. So I retract the 'cool' insult. As for the flaming, well, that takes two and your entire attitude from the start has been soaked with MS hate - sorry, but you asked for it, you basically came here to troll your MS hate, what do you expect?
 

mtyermom

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No, that is NOT what this was all about. This WAS about the OP asking about the release date of Windows 7 and whether it should have any impact on his OS choice. Then you guys decided to have a pissing contest in his thread.
 

notherdude

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By 'this' I meant the pissing contest, not the original topic, which had already gotten lost about the time this Mac troll V8Venom hijacked the thread in question with this post:

This is how Microsoft squeeze out more money from the "band wagoners" -- the loyal Microsoft fans who will remain loyal regards of what is tossed at them.

If you look at Windows 7 objectively it has all the same signs of failure as Vista - especially driver validation (yet another feature the user will have to try to figure out how to turn OFF). So let me ask this, you pay for all these new features then promptly go turn them all off because they consume resources and basically get in the way of productivity -- this is good because????

IE lost more market share (first time in a LONG LONG LONG time it dropped below 70%). Safari gained market share upto 8% (highest it has been in a LONG LONG LONG time).

This is another OS skip as it appears Microsoft still don't get it. At what market share percent does Microsoft have to hit before they actually start to produce software for the human race? 50%, 60%??

In reality it's Vista SP2 (or by release date maybe SP3).
Which as you can see was a classic flame bait derail which prompted a quick degeneration of the topic, as it was of course, intended to do. I came in on the rear end of that derail.
 

duzcizgi

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For all who say that MacOS X asks only when installing a program or uninstalling it:

1. MacOS X is based on BSD. And it doesn't need to support old programs written for pre-X version of MacOS, so all programs written for MacOS X are from scratch, designed to work with lesser privileges.

For all annoyed by Vista UAC:
1. Vista can run programs even from the days of W95, as long as it is a 32 bit program.
2. Nearly all the programs written until a couple of years assume that you are running with Administrators rights. Remember when you couldn't install your favourite game when XP was released, because you didn't have administrator rights?
3. If you'll use more and more "Designed for Vista" programs, you'll see less and less those UAC dialogs.

@V8VENOM:
1. Are you working under administrator rights, when you are writing your programs?
2. IF you are working under administrator rights, what do you do to check if your program works with lesser rights?
3. If you didn't consider security when writing programs and your program doesn't work on lesser rights, are you going back and fixing that part or bashing MS, that "that specific function doesn't work as documented"?

I'm also a programmer. And I'm using Visual Studio. One thing I know is, if you are a careless programmer, your program opens up the legs like a .......... in the ............ (Fill in the blanks as you wish.) Just programmers should take the pain of implementing features correctly. Not as they wish.
 

amdfangirl

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^ Let's keep this moderately on-topic...

1. Mac OS X has emulation options for that kinda stuff...

1. Vista can do this, but most of those programs must run on Aero basic... my Tv Tuner program Winfast PVR2 (2007) must run on basic =(
2. I was always admin =P
3. It depends... my tv tuner program still has UAC problem
 

duzcizgi

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About MacOs X: Emulation for older programs was possible only on PPC Macs. Current intel Macs practically can't do that.

About Vista:
1. I don't understand. What is Aero basic?
2. It's a big mistake. - If you are a programmer, you should learn to write programs under lesser privileges. If you are a user, you practically don't need an "Administrator" right. "Administrator" rights are required for "Administrators"
3. It's problem of both your TV Tuner program and TV card driver. Remember my previous post: "Programs take administrator rights granted" Well, Your TV card doesn't supply "user mode driver architecture" and TV Tuner program does direct hardware access, which of course require elevated rights.

In any case it's not the fault of Vista or MS at the first place. If the device vendor spent time to supply "real" drivers, instead of modifying the strings in reference implementation, we wouldn't have been facing 95% of these UAC screens. If programmers were aware that their program won't be the only program running there, we wouldn't have suffered since the introduction of Windows. In fact, UAC is just a temporary solution that'll be an annoyance until all programmers learn how to write programs that don't require UAC at all.
 

randomizer

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I disable UAC within 2 minutes of installing Vista because I don't like being asked 3 times if I really want to move a file, and if I would like to let Windows have permission to move it for me (no, of course I'd like to stick my hand into the aether and move it myself). I believe this has changed since SP1, but I've never had UAC enabled with SP1.
 

mtyermom

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That's still just an opinion, not a fact. That statement is subjective, not objective.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still using XP. Not because I think one is better than the other, but because XP does what I need it to, and Vista doesn't offer, at this point, any compelling reason for me to spend the money upgrading. (If I had a dx10 video card I would feel more pressure to upgrade.)
 
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