Religion or bed-time stories

[mubin]

Some say smart and talent people created religion to make human fear of judgement day. So humanity can be restore and there will be balance in society.

When smart people realize that human cannot survive without society and society needs balance, they made some reasonable rule and spread them in the name of Creator. So human will obey by fearing Creator.

This modern world's human rights comes from religion. What do you think if there was no religion from the beginning?

Is it made by Creator by sending prophet or just a bedtime stories, like tooth fairy/ghost which doesn't exist, to fear human?

Share your own ideas please.

 

[chunkymonster]

Is this the same mubin that wither created or posted in a bunch of pro-Islam threads?

Any thread innocently created to objectively debate whether religion is created as a means on societal control or as a fairy tale has FUD written all through it; either that or the OP has a hidden agenda.

This thread should be locked.

 

[wanamingo]

I had always though that the similarities between religions had to do with astrological explinations.

If you were a very primitive man how would you even begin to explain the lights in the sky (Stars, Sun, Moon)? It would have been an amazing sky at that without light pollution. So after thousands of years of trying to explain why some moved, some didnt some were big, meteors etc it all became stories and religion followed.

If you tell a story for long enough it becomes true.

 

[mubin]

Is this the same mubin that wither created or posted in a bunch of pro-Islam threads?

Any thread innocently created to objectively debate whether religion is created as a means on societal control or as a fairy tale has FUD written all through it; either that or the OP has a hidden agenda.

This thread should be locked.

What makes you think i have another copy in this forum?

I want to know others opinion about their believe. Whats wrong in this?

 

[mubin]

Yes religion was created to control the masses through fear.

Sorry, but the creator I believe in doesn't use fear to control and manipulate the masses.

What religion do you believe? Dose it state about heaven/hell?

wanamingo said

I had always though that the similarities between religions had to do with astrological explinations.

If you were a very primitive man how would you even begin to explain the lights in the sky (Stars, Sun, Moon)? It would have been an amazing sky at that without light pollution. So after thousands of years of trying to explain why some moved, some didnt some were big, meteors etc it all became stories and religion followed.

If you tell a story for long enough it becomes true.

Do you think modern religion has relation with astrology?

 

[wanamingo]

Imagine having zero understanding about your world, and seeing the stars every night. Consider also man imagination when he is looking at the stars, people always want answers and will make them up if there is nothing else to believe.

So you start imagining stories about the sun, and watching it obsessively for years. You begin to notice the length of the day changes with certain days having the least or the most sunlight. How would you even begin to explain what was going on? By making up stories that fit the narrative.

This story is applicable I think.

Start with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, you'll see a banana hanging on a string with a set of stairs placed under it. Before long, a monkey will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, all of the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water.

After a while, another monkey makes an attempt to obtain the banana. As soon as his foot touches the stairs, all of the other monkeys are sprayed with cold water. It's not long before all of the other monkeys try to prevent any monkey from climbing the stairs.

Now, put away the cold water, remove one monkey from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new monkey sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attack him as he makes his way toward the stairs. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five monkeys and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, replace a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey takes to the stairs, he is attacked.

Most of the monkeys that are beating him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the beating of the newest monkey.

After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys have ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approaches the stairs to try for the banana.

 

[mubin]

@wanamingo, I know this story. Very funny but true somehow and people believe like monkey by generations.

This cartoon describe better.

 

[mubin]

I don't believe in any man made religion. I believe in the ancient alien theory about the origins of human beings to be honest.

It is the closest thing i've been exposed to that coincides with what my native American grandfather taught me about the origins of our tribe and many others throught the Americas and the rest of the world.

I guess if you wanted to put me in a labeled box, you could call me agnostic.

Its scientific one but you believe in Creator. But its still a possibilities like other religion state about Creator.

 

[mubin]

So do you think human are engineered for any purpose or created for reason? Just like lab test?

And yes, the universe is too perfect. Like earth's magnetic field defend us from solar radiation and its atmosphere defend us from meteors. Its on purpose. Without an engineering this couldn't be so perfect by nature automatically.

 

[Reynod]

I do believe there is some kind of guiding hand (or claw) involved in humankind's evolution but whoever it is they have a nasty sense of humour.

If they are reading this then i would like to complain about being shorter than I would have liked to be ... and also make a few comments about the platypus and anteater ... and comment that "does the ground have to be so hard when you fall on it?"

0.7G would have been ideal.
Women should not have been given vocal chords
The emu is just stupid.
We need more beaches.
Please show us how to make beer which self refridgerates.
Could you uninvent facebook and all reality TV shows.

Thank you.

 

[chunkymonster]

Thankfully this thread hasn't devolved into an anti-religion, anti-christian, anti-western civilization diatribe like I thought it would. So, hopefully, with that said, my take on the OP's questions about the origins of religion will be welcomed.

Some say smart and talent people created religion to make human fear of judgement day. So humanity can be restore and there will be balance in society.

I do not think that religion was purposefully and intentionally created by man to control society. I do believe that formalized religion and religious institutions have become a tool of corrupt men in efforts to seize power and control over the people.

When smart people realize that human cannot survive without society and society needs balance, they made some reasonable rule and spread them in the name of Creator. So human will obey by fearing Creator.

Again, I do not believe that religion was created intentionally and purposefully by man to control society. I believe the rules/laws/morality offered by the ancient religions were a necessary step along the evolution of humanity. As man moved from isolated hunter-gatherer tribes wandering the wilderness into obtaining the knowledge (farming, domestication of animals, advanced tool making) to create permanent and sustainable settlements where tribes began to live together, they also brought with them the primitive beliefs of animism, idol worship, star worship which melded together to form a singular belief system they all could believe in.

This modern world's human rights comes from religion. What do you think if there was no religion from the beginning?

If there was no religion, man would still develop a basic set of values to live by, the agreement among men of those values is what evolves into morality, a common sense of morality is necessary to form a cohesive and stable society. A formalized religion or religious institution is not necessary for man to develop and agree a common set of values and morality, i.e.; create society. As a result "human rights" would still exist but the human rights developed under a society without religion would have been created with a value system and morality completely foreign to us.

Is it made by Creator by sending prophet or just a bedtime stories, like tooth fairy/ghost which doesn't exist, to fear human?

I believe that neither science or religion has the answer to creation of man or the creation of the universe. I do not believe in either evolution or creation. I believe that modern man (homo sapien) is a unique species that has independently developed on earth separate from all other species and contrary what evolutionists and creationists promote. I believe that those answers have long been lost to antiquity and it will take a millennium for science to discover or for religious men to become enlightened enough to discover the truth.

I also believe that man has been alive on this planet for a lot longer than science and fossil records indicate. Fossil records show the same species of dinosaur lived in South America and in Africa which proves that those continents were once connected. Records indicate that more than one life ending catastrophe has happened on this earth over the centuries. Records indicate that homo sapiens were alive and flourishing on earth before and after these catastrophic events. And, records also indicate that homo sapiens spawned from a common ancestor; which is proof of mans survival after these catastrophic events. So, if dinosaur fossils can prove tectonic plate movements, and if records show that man was a live before and after world wide life ending catastrophic events, it is a reasonable conclusion that man has successfully survived catastrophic event after catastrophic event and successfully survived the tectonic plate movements of this earth throughout the past several millions of years.

Religion is the result of our species unique enlarged frontal lobe. Religion is the reverence and adoration for the larger world that we live in. Religion is a natural extension of humans survival throughout the epochs on this planet. Religion is the physical manifestation of the common values and greater sense of morality passed along as an oral tradition propagated by hunter-gatherer tribes until man grew in population enough to necessitate permanent settlements and the creation of society. Religion is the recognition by man that there is a "larger something" in control of the world and universe that can not be explained but is known to be true because of our inherent connection to the world and universe.

It is because of the unexplained "larger something" is where we get into debate and argument about which belief is the "correct" belief, which prophet is the "correct" prophet, and which dogma is the "correct" dogma. And while factions of humanity argue and debate over their specific beliefs they ignore their commonality and singular belief in something larger and lose the beauty and wonder that binds us together.

One last edit...I am catholic. I believe that Jesus was the son of God embodied on earth to create a covenant of forgiveness for the sins of man. This covenant released man from the self-hatred and self-guilt that weighs on a persons mind at their moment of death. I believe his teachings and parables are examples to live by and if lived by will give a peaceful eternal sleep. These beliefs are a matter of faith. Faith is separate and distinct from intellectualism and rational thought. Faith and science are not mutually exclusive and can co-exist without contradiction.

 

[mubin]

Yes, we were engineered to be slaves which is why we find it so easy to enslave each other. It's in our DNA.

So do you believe Creator made us in His image(His type/His character)?

 

[mubin]

If there was no religion, man would still develop a basic set of values to live by, the agreement among men of those values is what evolves into morality, a common sense of morality is necessary to form a cohesive and stable society. A formalized religion or religious institution is not necessary for man to develop and agree a common set of values and morality, i.e.; create society. As a result "human rights" would still exist but the human rights developed under a society without religion would have been created with a value system and morality completely foreign to us.

Do you think without religious humanity will success? Even with many religious there is lack in humanity in world. In every religion there are corrupted follower. Where Buddhism told that killing life is a great sin, but its follower keeps killing, Islam told to make peace and stay out off greed, but its follower doing chaos and greedy for power, Christianity told to stay out off sin but its follower keep doing sin. Do you think it would be easy to keep humanity that easy without religion?

Do you think that dinosaur was killed in purpose by Creator to live human freely? Fossils says human were once very big like dinosaur. But human survive.

One last edit...I am catholic. I believe that Jesus was the son of God embodied on earth to create a covenant of forgiveness for the sins of man. This covenant released man from the self-hatred and self-guilt that weighs on a persons mind at their moment of death. I believe his teachings and parables are examples to live by and if lived by will give a peaceful eternal sleep. These beliefs are a matter of faith. Faith is separate and distinct from intellectualism and rational thought. Faith and science are not mutually exclusive and can co-exist without contradiction.

Do you believe in return of prophet Isha(Jesus)? He will remove all crime from earth?

 

[mubin]

I do believe there is some kind of guiding hand (or claw) involved in humankind's evolution but whoever it is they have a nasty sense of humour.

You mean like automatic manufacturing system with high-end intelligent and keep upgrading us?

oldmangamer_73 said:

There is a creator of the universe. There were creators of man. Plural.

This is why in Genesis 1:26 it says:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Also in Qur'an, "I made Adam in my image". Creator want to see us what do we do while getting knowledge like Him. Dont you think? He want to test our intelligence.

This is just one of the reasons why I think man's creators were nothing more than advanced beings not of this Earth. So advanced in fact that they seemed "Godlike" in the eyes of the human slaves. They could fly, had immensely powerful weapons, the ability to heal and cure disease, engineer structures to bring clean water to the people, irrigate the land making it abundant, created writing, language, philosophy, justice, the first schools, the first libraries, etc.

To early man, these feats would indeed seem 'Godlike', don't you think?

Yes, Many thousand years ago those were godlike.

Do you think someday we will catchup with our Creator or we can make exact copy of ourself? We can create intelligent life from by our own?

Do you ever think that scientist can control energy like walking in the surface of the sun? We can make black hole someday?

 

[Reynod]

The US has already made a number of small black holes ... one got away in early 2008 because the CDO (magnetic bottle) couldn't handle it ... nearly ruined us all.

 

[mubin]

The US has already made a number of small black holes ... one got away in early 2008 because the CDO (magnetic bottle) couldn't handle it ... nearly ruined us all.

Its a one step forward to science.

Do you think who ever create us, want us to worship Him or thanks Him?

Do you agree on worshiping or live you own? Share everyone's opinion.

 

[Reynod]

My analogy was in reference to the GFC ... a little obscure I should add.

You should note that I consider myself a god (small "g" as I am quite humble) and I currently have 2 disciples ... If I include my cat.

 

[dogman_1234]

The US has already made a number of small black holes ... one got away in early 2008 because the CDO (magnetic bottle) couldn't handle it ... nearly ruined us all.

Remember CERN tried to make one as well.

Here is a great idea: Let us prove where we came from by destroying us all with a black hole!

Science. Gotta love it.

 

[mubin]

CERN try to make anti-matter as god particle. Negative H ion at -271c. Nearly absolute zero temperature. Hope one day science can make -273c or 0 kelvin and beyond.

 

[dogman_1234]

Funny, we found it July 4 of this year!

Kinda neat if you ask me.

 

[mubin]

About 0 kelvin? Can you post a link?

 

[dogman_1234]

No, we humans have found the Higgs Boson...

 

[chunkymonster]

Do you think without religious humanity will success? Even with many religious there is lack in humanity in world. In every religion there are corrupted follower. Where Buddhism told that killing life is a great sin, but its follower keeps killing, Islam told to make peace and stay out off greed, but its follower doing chaos and greedy for power, Christianity told to stay out off sin but its follower keep doing sin. Do you think it would be easy to keep humanity that easy without religion?

Yes, I think humanity and society could succeed without religion. As mentioned before, a common set of values and goals are the minimum requirements for humanity to have formed a society. Religion as a belief system or as a formalized institution is not necessary for humans to come together for mutual benefit. As a matter of fact, there are several studies that show a correlation between countries with high populations of atheists as having less crime, less divorce, giving larger donations to the poor, and a greater sense of happiness when compared to more religious countries.

One of the functions of religion has been to provide a value system and laws for society to Man. God gave Man free will and with it the ability to choose whether or not to live by God's word. It is the juxtaposition of God's law with Man's free will is what allows Man to live by God's law or not. It is a result of free will that Man will always be at odds with God's law and why there will always be those who do not follow God's law. God knows Man by our nature is fallible and will, despite our best attempts, fail to completely live up to His law.

As mentioned, there have been studies that correlate countries with a high population of non-religious with lower crime rates, lower divorce rates, and a higher satisfaction with life as compared to those countries with a higher population of religious people. However, it is the challenge of living up to God's law that allows for this comparison. For example, if the baseline morality for non-religious (secular) countries is to have less murder than previous years, it is easier for non-religious countries to achieve that goal than a religious nation where God's baseline morality is for each believer to live God's law perfectly. Also as mentioned, God knows Man will fail to live up to His word. So, to answer the question of, "Do you think it would be easy to keep humanity that easy without religion?" yes I think that it would be easy to keep humanity without religion. God gave Man his laws knowing Man would fail, but God will continue to love us even if we fail to live His word; God only expect us to continue to try to live His word and repent and confess when we fail. It is this exact concept that God became Man and was born as Jesus Christ, to create a New Covenant of forgiveness for our sins, so Man could live with free will and choose a life of his own making.

Do you think that dinosaur was killed in purpose by Creator to live human freely? Fossils says human were once very big like dinosaur. But human survive.

Well, dinosaurs do still exist on earth today i,e,; birds, alligators crocodiles, and rhinoceros. I think that there have been multiple catastrophic events throughout the history of the earth that brought both dinosaur and Man to the edge of extinction. I can not say if these near extinction events were done on purpose by God or if they are the happenstance of the universe God created.

Do you believe in return of prophet Isha(Jesus)? He will remove all crime from earth?

Yes, I believe that Jesus will return but not return to establish an earthly kingdom. Jesus will return the Kingdom of Heaven and call the believers, the living and the righteous dead, to join him in Heaven, when this happens, all that will be left of earth is crime, despair, famine, and fear. At least that's what the Catholic Church tells me I believe. Personally, I focus more on living day-to-day and providing the best for me and my family. If and when Jesus does return all earthly concerns will mean nothing.

 

[Reynod]

Chunky is a Catholic ... holy MMOJ !!

I have 4 kids and people ask me if I am a Catholic because I swear a lot ... and apologise frequently.

I have muslim friends who say I am blessed because all 4 are boys ... I have to agree with that.

 

[chunkymonster]

Chunky is a Catholic ... holy MMOJ !!

Haha! Yeah...was raised in a heavy Baptist family (one brother is a Preacher), but lived my teen years through my late 20's as an atheist, but then joined the Catholic Church before getting married. With the wife being from a big Irish Catholic family (with two priests and one nun in the immediate family) it was a gift to my wife to make things more cohesive and rather than having to hear about being married an American heathen. Besides, I really don't care, God is God no matter how you choose to practice it.

I have muslim friends who say I am blessed because all 4 are boys ... I have to agree with that.

I can appreciate that! I have a Pakistani friend who is all about the fact that I have 3 boys, he always mentions about what a good wife I have for only giving me sons. I'm gonna invest in birth control when the hit puberty...