Question replacing my h80

[nuki]

Hello thw cooling gurus, I am looking for advice on replacing my 6+ years old corsair h80 clc.
It will have to cool a 4930k inside a Silverstone FT02 case, the latter being a big limiting factor as the case only has a single 120 slot on top. The bottom could take eg. a 3x120 rad although it would have to be pretty thin (only 37mm between the 780gtx and bottom fans). If I go for an aio again I would be reluctant to mount the radiator on the bottom because of air bubbles though. So my questions are:

1) I wanted to have an all copper loop since my h80 is most likely dying due to corrosion. Does that even make sense or will the aio/clc die anyways due to other factors (pump, evaporation...).

2) since its just the CPU a custom loop feels a bit overkill. I am looking at the Alphacool Eisbaer 360 LT for an aio atm. which could be extended. If I was to extend it by a reservior to resolve the air bubble problem, will the pump still be able to power that larger loop?

3) the case is great for air but I guess cooling that 4930k @ 4.3 (1.29v) even with a NH15 is not an option? I am reluctant to go there because of the weight/strain on the board, but exploring that option doesnt hurt I guess.

4) any other suggestions to keep that cpu chill (delid? 😛).

thanks a lot!

 

[rubix_1011]

1) not likely due to corrosion, what indicators do you have to support this theory?

2) what is the air bubble problem?

3) why are large air coolers not an option?

4) have you already delidded, or are you asking 'should I do this'? I would recommend checking your cooling options and overclock settings to ensure you aren't missing something there, first. Many times, overclock settings can be adjusted to use lower vcore or optimize other settings or a cooler might not be as adequate as others, or possibly not seated well. Delidding a CPU voids the warranty, so be prepared to accept this if something goes wrong.

 

[nuki]

1&2) My h80 has degraded to the point where my cpu will thermal throttle at stock speeds. If i run at 3.9 for 40sec it will hit 83c and eventually settle at 3.4 - 3.5. I made multiple attempts at resolving this (I mislabled the cooler as h80i there, which it is not) and corrosion is the only way left to explain this imho. As for the air bubbles, I had the impression that since aio/clc systems dont have a reservior, mounting the radiator lower than the waterblock will force any trapped air to rise towards the pump causing hiccups. I wanted to resolve that by extending the loop through a reservoir.

3) they are, I am just a bit uncomfortable with the mobo supporting that much weight. If cooling is not a problem (i think the nh15 is rated for 165w, so it may even be sufficient for the OC) I will definitely consider it.

4) was more of a joke, I think a new cooler should easily handle that mild OC of mine. I did play around with that in the past and iirc got to 4.2 stable at 1.28v. Since I cant even maintain stock speeds atm I didnt try to optimize it further though.

 

[Karadjgne]

Could also go with a Fractal Design Kelvin S36, it's a 30mm tall rad that's also expandable.

The only air bubble theory I can think about is since the pump is higher than the radiator, then that's where air will collect, which is true under limited circumstances, but just as easily fixed by tilting the pc during a priming process. Gotta do that with any rad during those circumstances though, which mainly involves putting the pc in a trunk and taking it for a ride.

NH-D15 isn't an issue. It weighs just the same vertical as it does horizontal, so won't have any more stress on the mobo than in any other orientation. Your only limiting factor there is the newer S has an offset base for gpu backplate compatability, which sticks that other edge right up against the psu, maybe. So the older NH-D15 might be the better design. Also running quad channel ram could be an issue if the heatsink is too tall to fit under the cooler heatsink, you'd not loose much, if any, performance in gaming running 2x dual channel, although some production programs do benefit from the larger bandwidth quad affords.

Most aio deaths from age are due to evaporation of the coolant through the rubber hoses. And aren't refillable like with expandable versions.

The NH-D15/S is rated at 250w+, so will handle a mild OC without issue on that cpu. For better than mild, you'll need liquid cooling, it's the only cooler type with higher wattage capacity. (350-450w for 280/360mm)

 

[nuki]

Thanks for the reply! I was considering the Kelvin too, but due to its old release date (2014) and its max 240 rad I went with alphacool. I think the normal Eisbaer would as well, but the LT is their more recent model. My girlfriend has a Fractal Celsius s24 which offers a neat fan hub, but uses an aluminium rad.
My main concern is if the air bubble thing really is a problem and whether the pump can sustain this extension of the loop.
I am a freelance VFX artist doing lots of Physics / Fluid simulation, so I really want to keep the quad channel config. Probably even have to fill those RAM banks and go 64gig if DDR3 gets a bit cheaper.

 

[Karadjgne]

Both the Kelvin and Celsius have the S36, 360mm versions. Also designed in cooperation with AlphaCool, both pump and rad, and can handle a gpu if needed.

• Galvanic corrosion occurs over time when two metals with different galvanic potential (such as aluminum and copper) are in contact. It can be slowed with anti-corrosion additives in the water, but the best way to maintain performance over time is to use metals with similar galvanic potential. The Kelvin Series water cooling system is constructed with pure copper in both the radiator and the water block, along with brass fittings.

That's from fractals page, so no worries there either.

DDR3 prices are iffy. There's still a good supply of the stuff running around, and a considerable demand in the Indo-Asiatic markets, but in EU/US markets its getting to where supply is dwindling and demand isn't, so prices are pretty stable. Dunno if they'll drop any time soon by much, a little more time will see supply drop further but demand could easily raise prices. Even old, used i7-3770K are still over $150, and have been for a while.

 

[nuki]

Hm I dont seem to get the Kelvin s36 here (Austria) only the Celsius S36 which is aluminium afaik. Regardless of the aio brand, do you think that mounting the rad below the waterblock might cause pump damage due to air bubbles rising to the highest point? My h80 would stop working completely for some time after I tried installing the rad on the bottom, although it recovered after a bit of tilting. Hence I am worried that for a new aio the bottom radiator configuration might cause pump damage over time. Does my proposed extension by a reservoir make any sense or am I trying to resolve a non-issue there?

 

[rubix_1011]

Could be an airlock in the AIO, tapping the tubing and pump can help resolve, but I would also determine if you are still full of coolant or if you've had any leaks. If that AIO is as old as you are saying it is, might be time to just find a new cooler.

Some large air coolers look heavy, but really aren't. Likewise, I just tested a Threadripper cooler that was incredibly large and massive: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cooler-master-wraith-ripper-amd-tr4-cooler,6057.html

So, if you're looking for air or liquid coolers, I can help - I do the CPU cooler reviews on Tom's.

 

[nuki]

Wow, the review of the air coolers surprised me, and I would much appreciate the help of someone with that much insight into the topic. If a NH-U14S can keep a 32 core monster cool @ 3.4 it should probably deal with 6 cores @ 4.3. And the Nocuta colours would for once even fit into the build, plus the pricing is tempting. Why did u go for the NH-U14S instead of the NH-D15 for the threadripper review btw?

I do wonder if my 3x120 rad aio fantasy still remains viable next to the value offered by the air coolers then. If I wanted to extend that by a reservoir I would pay twice as much, but how large would the gain in performance and reduction in noise be? With that mild overclock it might just improve looks and clearance as Karadjgne pointed out before.

 

[Karadjgne]

Well, if planning on all that, I'd not even go the route of customizing an aio setup, might as well go full custom loop. Plenty of room for a good sized res and pump, you can decide on drive layout and drop the hotswap bays which makes for more airspace.

You do have options, some like the Noctua rubix suggested being much cheaper than liquid for sure. Even flip the psu around and use that as an exhaust. Much depends on exactly how much time you want to spend in redesigning and customizing.

 

[nuki]

Oh, I dont mind customizing, I guess my limit is the pricing really. I want to stay below 150€, thats why I only considered aios for water. A triple rad would definitely look nice, but I am still worried about the whole air bubble thing if I mount it in the bottom. Im kinda 50/50 on the nh-d14s and the Alphacool Eisbaer 360 right now, probably leaning towards air if it kan really keep my 4930k @ 4.3 below 75c (including ambient).

 

[nuki]

Btw, is there a 120mm AiO that would provide significantly better cooling than a NH-U14S?

 

[Karadjgne]

Not even close. The NH-U14S is a 200w+ capacity cooler. Most 120mm AIO's are in the 140w range, AIO's like the double fan, double thick rad H80 series are equitable, but there's only 1 or 2 others in that class.

 

[nuki]

Hm, if I got the stock vcore right (1.1v??) that 4930k shoud draw 230w @ 4.3/1.3v. Where do you get the TDP numbers from btw, Is there a comprehensive list that data for different CPU coolers?

 

[Karadjgne]

Not really. Sometimes you get lucky and sites like cryorig will actually post the 145w capacity of the H7 etc, but mostly and especially with AIO's it's extrapolation. The H60 for instance, gets almost identical performance, both on ability, limits even curve as the 140w CM hyper212, which in itself is a very solidly mediocre budget aircooler. There's also a heap of professional reviews who will toss out numbers every now and then. Some comes from pure memory, Noctua used to list the wattages of its coolers, but has since adopted a more user friendly approach by using circle graphs, the more green you see, the better able the cooler is for that cpu. So I remember the old 250w+ rating of the NH-D15/S and the 200w+ of the NH-D14 etc.

This you need to pair up with ability of the cpu. TDP is fine for nominal usage. For a non-K figure extreme usage as 1.5-2x TDP. That's stress test limits. The K's get a little wonky since there's no saying exactly how far an OC will be pushed, but normal ranges for high OC is @ 200-250w heat output, middling OC is @ 150-200w, and small OC can usually be under a non-K's limits of 1.5-2x TDP.

The i7-4930k is 130w TDP. For a reliable cooler that'll handle rendering or other extreme usage that'll tax all the cores upto 100%, you'd be looking at coolers in the 200w+ to 250w range. If you figure worst case scenario gaming is @ 70% of that 260w max, you'd be looking at @ 150w-180w outputs on a 200w+ cooler. No worries. Most games won't go much beyond 50-55% cpu usage, which drops wattage even lower as not all the cores are utilized to max capacity.

First Law of cpu cooling states that you can never overcool a cpu, but you can and will easily undercool one. In layman's terms, bigger is always better. You can stick a 360mm on an old i3, only thing that means is you'll never have the fans at anything more than minimum, so a remarkably silent pc with great airflow ability. Stick a budget 120mm AIO on a 130w HEDT cpu and you'll not do much more than websurf or watch YouTube videos.

These numbers are based on @ 70°C limit. If you are fine with a cpu running at 70° when gaming, expect it to reach @ 100° under stress. Most ppl prefer the stress at @ 70°C, which puts heavy gaming closer to mid-high 50's. The 5w difference between a hyper212 and a H7 may not seem like much, but it's enough that on the cpu intended range, the H7 gets 2-5°C better temps at any setting, be it OC or stock. With at least 20w of headroom, that U14S should be plenty good.

Operational VID for the 4930k is 1.65v, Max is 1.86v, which is where OC can actually help since stock VRM's are going to give the cpu 1.65v, but vcore is what the cpu actually uses. OC can lower VID usage, dropping it down to 1.2v or so, even if you don't change anything else, (stock 1.1v) that's a significant drop in socket temps and a gain in stable voltages. Which is where LLC comes into play, keeping the VID not much more than vcore and keeping Vdroop from exceeding VID set limits. Lower voltages being equal to lower temps.

Stock 3.8GHz idle/gaming/stress on my i7-3770K is 32/60/80. At 4.6GHz its 32/55/70.

 

[nuki]

Thank you for this thorough explanation. My h80i probably wasnt sufficient to handle render/sim workloads in the first place, it probably isnt even broken. I will get an NH-D15S over the U14S for the extra headroom, the D15 doesnt fit my FT02 apparently.
Does the Arctic MX4 outperform the included NT-H1 thermal paste?
Should I add an extra fan to the NH-D15S and go push/pull?

 

[Karadjgne]

No, the Noctua paste is rated in the top 5, the MX-4 is somewhat further down the list.

Adding a second fan can't hurt and some reviews put the second fan as slightly better than the stock NH-D15.

Dude in the video mentions lack of space in height over the ram and VRM's heatsink, I ran into that issue with my Cryorig R1 Ultimate, easy answer was to stick a 120mm fan in front instead of the stock 140mm (those fans have 120mm mount holes) which allowed for ram clearance without jacking the fan beyond acceptable heights.

 

[nuki]

thank you again, I just ordered the D15S and will try running it without a second fan initnally. Dont think a second A15 will fit in my case either, although the VRM heatsink is smaller on my x79 Deluxe.

I might try refilling the h80i with a syringe through the tubing and fit it into my old q6600.

 

[rubix_1011]

Why did u go for the NH-U14S instead of the NH-D15 for the threadripper review btw?

I am sent products to review based on what vendors wish to have written up and covered. In this case, Noctua sent me the NH-U14S to review. They did not send me an NH-D15.

 

[nuki]

Ah, ok - I thought there might be a deeper reasoning behind it 😉

So I got the D15S up and running and I am blown away by the improvement in temps. After 20 min of 100% load I reach 60c.

I am just wondering about one thing: Two of my 6 cores (#5 and #6) get around 5c to 7c hotter than the other ones. Might that be caused by the thermal conductor below the lid? I did spread the thermal paste thinly with a credid card, so that should be good.