Report: Intel Looking for Access to Mantle API

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
Status
Not open for further replies.
mitch074

mitch074

Splendid
Mar 17, 2006
2,846
426
21,540
No, Mantle is a way to address the GPU more directly, which reduces driver overhead (and thus, CPU use goes down) and optimizes GPU use (a given result can be computed faster by making use of a particular GPU's strengths).

When most graphics accelerators were mostly fixed function processors, using unified APIs to address them (DirectX, OpenGL) made a lot of sense. Now that they have all turned into dedicated computing units, something looking more like a computing language+compiler (Mantle) than a simple API is becoming quite tempting.
 
B

BleedingEdgeTek

Reputable
May 29, 2014
709
0
5,360
Thank you mitch for clearing that up. I had always understood it to be (admittedly, didn't really look all that into it, as I use NVIDIA) a way of taking CPU processing weight and placing it onto the GPU. That basic 'understanding' was 'backed up' when seeing that Mantle had more effect on the lower end CPUs than the higher end when dealing with the same card.
 
alextheblue

alextheblue

Distinguished
Apr 3, 2001
3,078
106
20,970
Thank you mitch for clearing that up. I had always understood it to be (admittedly, didn't really look all that into it, as I use NVIDIA) a way of taking CPU processing weight and placing it onto the GPU. That basic 'understanding' was 'backed up' when seeing that Mantle had more effect on the lower end CPUs than the higher end when dealing with the same card.
Click to expand...
The reduced overhead can be used for more draw calls, but it can also reduce the drag on the CPU. This frees up more CPU cycles for the game to use elsewhere. When you've got a slower/older system that is CPU-bound, switching to a Mantle rendering path (if the developers take advantage of it) typically gives a larger boost.

The systems that will probably benefit the most from this? Laptop APUs with GCN.
 
firefoxx04

firefoxx04

Distinguished
Jan 23, 2009
1,371
1
19,660
Why does the author think mantle in Intel 'apu' chips would be beneficial? Mantle removes the cpu overheard (or tried too) in an effort to remove a cpu bottle neck.

That said, I Intel chips don't really bottleneck in gaming unlike Amd chips which are much weaker. Mantles appeal is that you could run a high end gpu like the 290x or 295 with a weak cpu like the Athlon fm2 chip without bottle nicking.

Intel has the opposite problem with their chips. Strong cpu and weak gpu
 
T

tomfreak

Distinguished
May 18, 2011
1,334
0
19,280
Intel& AMD has the history of sharing technologies & ideas. SSE/Athlon64 integrated memory controller, APU, x86, x86-64. I would not be surprise they adopt Mantle. The only one left out now is Nvidia, which isnt willing to share technology openly. I still recall Nvidia are restricting Intel chipset from having SLI compatibility when they have Nforce. All that end when intel decide to kill off their chipset business.
 
wurkfur

wurkfur

Distinguished
Dec 27, 2011
336
1
18,965
Mantle doesn't hardly do crap in GPU limited scenarios as demonstrated by this website and others. Any integrated GPU on die is going to be the limiter, especially on an Intel based chip.

If Intel had access to Mantle, the true benefit would be reduced CPU overhead which would allow more power for the GPU portion of the chip in thermally limited scenarios like notebooks, tablets, and mobile.
 
B

Brendan Goodbody

Honorable
Jun 10, 2013
6
0
10,510
What you guys may be forgetting is that these APUs (Intel and AMD) are generally hitting thermal (TDP) limits when playing games and so throtling already. If the overhead on the CPU can be reduced, then this may leave more room for the GPU to clock a bit higher etc. Therefore, even if it only reduces the burden on the CPU part of the chips, it can improve the performance of the limited GPU parts of the chips by allowing more boost room.
 
renz496

renz496

Champion
Jun 16, 2009
14,249
210
53,090


actually this is not new. i heard about intel has been asking mantle spec in forum discussion before but note in article above that intel says they have been asking for several times. why they repeatedly asking AMD for it? because AMD has denied intel request. AMD so eager for game developer to take mantle but when hardware vendor ask for the spec (well AMD has been touting mantle to be Open since day one) their response was "we cannot give you the spec yet since it is still beta" and at the same time they have no problem inviting game developer to have an early look at mantle. even better they already have two commercial games running mantle right now. did you still call it beta when there are already commercial games running your tech? if AMD accept intel request since day one maybe intel can help them refining Mantle 1.0 spec. even better Mantle might work on intel igpu by the time they release the spec to the public. why AMD cannot give other hardware vendor the spec now? why need to wait for a year to release it? what did they afraid of? did they afraid they lose the advantage being the sole company capable of running mantle for a period of time? what about future version of mantle? will other hardware vendor have their hands on deciding the spec like OpenGL or will AMD will be the only company controlling Mantle direction?
 
DjEaZy

DjEaZy

Distinguished
Apr 3, 2008
1,161
0
19,280
... intel cpu's work fast with old ways to do things, where is a need for a powerful cpu... but the new things to do is with not just cpu's, but gpu's and the parallel processing power of that... Mantle, APU's, OpenCL start to mature and by doing that, it shows, why a powerful CPU can get more irrelevant... rendering videos with OpenCL is more faster, than just cpu, even the most expensive one... gaming with Mantle makes the CPU part more irrelevant, but let the GPU shine, because the workload is now more direct... and now with HSA... AMD with ARM in serverspace... when you see it from different angles... intel could be the next nokia: once powerful, but then, when the shift comes, the most unprepared... so they need to know, how AMD bypasses the CPU... so they need to know, how to build the hardware, to make Mantle work... on the other hand, intel could do, what they done before... take AMD's idea, like: x86/x64; Multicore, Ghz, performance rating, APU and others, and make it better and then slap AMD with it own idea... so... it will be interesting... i hope, AMD will get some thing out of it, because we all need them well and
competing...
 
H

Haravikk

Distinguished
Sep 14, 2013
317
0
18,790
While I'm sure Intel are investigating this kind of acceleration, I'd really rather see them put their weight behind pushing OpenGL to adopt some of the same features, as that'd be better for everyone.
 
L

laststop311

Distinguished
Nov 8, 2010
281
0
18,790
the guy writing this is an idiot. He says intel may want this to help its gpu play games it previously couldnt.. Here's the issue with that statement. Mantle is for CPU limited scenarios. It boost performance when the cpu is what is holding it back. Intels gpu's are almost 100% bottlenecked due to the gpu shaders and such not being very powerful. Mantle will do nothing to alleviate that situation. I expect better from these writers.
 
T

Tem B

Reputable
Jun 17, 2014
8
0
4,510
Some of you are assuming its all for Intels high end GPUs. They have laptop APUs etc and lower end desktop ones I think. Freeing up the high end CPUs to do more could also be beneficial.

AMD isn't sharing it yet because its in beta. If they did and it failed that could hurt it's adoption. They are getting it right first
 
renz496

renz496

Champion
Jun 16, 2009
14,249
210
53,090


and they can do it much better for everyone if they let other hardware vendor like intel take part in shaping the mantle spec. right now it is obvious they want to control mantle direction alone. as i said they keep calling it beta but now there already 3 games being sold using Mantle. what kind of beta is that? imagine with Mantle 2.0. if they keep the attitude they have right now they will only release Mantle 2.0 spec after a year talking about it. but in the mean time there will be 5-10 games will be release using Mantle 2.0 and AMD will be the only vendor have the capable of running it since they cannot release the spec to the public yet since it was "beta".
 
renz496

renz496

Champion
Jun 16, 2009
14,249
210
53,090


it is true. but there are also speculative part :D . i heard that AMD wants to use the fact that intel has been asking about Mantle as a marketing point for game developer to adopt Mantle because big hardware vendor like intel was interested with their tech. intel most likely smell AMD game here so they made a quick respond saying that they have been asking for a few times but has been denied access each time. and then intel come up with this comment:

At the time of the initial Mantle announcement, we were already investigating rendering overhead based on game developer feedback," an Intel spokesman said in an email. "Our hope was to build consensus on potential approaches to reduce overhead with additional data. We have publicly asked them to share the spec with us several times as part of examination of potential ways to improve APIs and increase efficiencies. At this point though we believe that DirectX 12 and ongoing work with other industry bodies and OS vendors will address the issues that game developers have noted
Click to expand...

http://techreport.com/news/26682/intel-asked-amd-for-mantle-api-spec
 
meat_loaf

meat_loaf

Distinguished
Oct 20, 2011
650
0
19,360
"AMD isn't sharing it yet because its in beta. If they did and it failed that could hurt it's adoption. They are getting it right first"

That is wrong. AMD isn't giving intel the Mantle API its because Intel repeatedly have done dirty underhanded tactics towards AMD. Intel has bought off Cinebench and whole bunch of other CPU benchmark software and rigged the coding so that Intel CPU appears to be king when in reality they could be losing to AMD. Intel compiler was made so that "If intel cpu feed X code, if other feed Y code" which Y code has a lot of junk in them making the process slower.

So why would AMD give Intel the benefit of their R&D when Intel has not put in a single cent into it when all they do is sit on the sideline and play their bias game?

This is has nothing to do whether Mantle is still in beta or in improvement process. AMD has no interest in giving its rival any advantage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom