Report: NSA Has Access to Skype, SkyDrive; MSFT Responds

[nerrawg]

However, I can challenge your idea that privacy always leads to good results. privacy=anonymity. And the mask of anonymity has created a monster. I can think of two example off of the top of my head.

The first is fiction. In the story "Lord of the flies", the mask of anonymity creates a monster out of little children, making them try to murder each other.

The second, and my main point, is in reality, in modern Japan. The internet has created an extreme world of privacy and anonymity. People use account names such as JPNpower, or Nerrawg to hide their ideas and actions. This has lead to multiple instances of forced suicide, mostly in young people, such as high schoolers/college students, and young sallarymen. Hidden behind privacy, people do and say such horrid things that they would never say to anybody's face. People gather around in a circle of hate, and inevitably force somebody into killing themselves. When they realize what evil they have done, they don't repent, and repeat the process over again. Such is the horror of privacy.

Those are important points, but I think they have more to do with personal privacy and family privacy than the Corporate or financial privacy that I was getting at. I would however be interested in hearing your opinions on whether publicizing some of these currently private instances would be a viable solution, and if so, how such a solution would be effectively implemented. I am currently of the opinion that bullying and family intrigues that may result in horrific criminal acts will probably not at all be the focus of the NSA's surveillance programme and that it will do little if anything to prevent these outcomes

 

[smeezekitty]

However, I can challenge your idea that privacy always leads to good results. privacy=anonymity. And the mask of anonymity has created a monster. I can think of two example off of the top of my head.

The first is fiction. In the story "Lord of the flies", the mask of anonymity creates a monster out of little children, making them try to murder each other.

The second, and my main point, is in reality, in modern Japan. The internet has created an extreme world of privacy and anonymity. People use account names such as JPNpower, or Nerrawg to hide their ideas and actions. This has lead to multiple instances of forced suicide, mostly in young people, such as high schoolers/college students, and young sallarymen. Hidden behind privacy, people do and say such horrid things that they would never say to anybody's face. People gather around in a circle of hate, and inevitably force somebody into killing themselves. When they realize what evil they have done, they don't repent, and repeat the process over again. Such is the horror of privacy.

Personally I am not a privacy nut (although there are cases I prefer privacy)

But the biggest concern for me is the violations of the constitution.
Just like a criminal is likely to commit other crimes, once the government starts disobeying its own laws, it is only a matter of time before it becomes worse.

Another thing is when data is collected in secret and no always with known context, false convictions are a real possibility.

 

[JPNpower]

Yes, I'd love to debate personal privacy later, but lets stay on this topic for now.

So to clarify, Nerrawg, you are concerned that the NSA could leak ideas and innovations to others (corruption) before the idea even hits the patent office? Because if it is leaked after it hits the patent people, there is enough evidence to secure the proper owner with the rights to their idea.

 

[JPNpower]

And kitty, I've already said this. (my god there is a catsworld and kitty in the same thread!?)
But the Government isn't really crossing the constitution or any law. Yes it is merely finding loopholes, but if you are arguing strictly based on laws, the government is way ahead of you.

 

[nerrawg]

Yes, I'd love to debate personal privacy later, but lets stay on this topic for now.

So to clarify, Nerrawg, you are concerned that the NSA could leak ideas and innovations to others (corruption) before the idea even hits the patent office? Because if it is leaked after it hits the patent people, there is enough evidence to secure the proper owner with the rights to their idea.

Yes I'm greatly concerned about this. As a researcher the issue of patenting has become a daunting challenge in the profession. Patents cost a considerable amount of money and are easily declined if you do not posses the enough data to meet the rigorous requirements of the process. This typically leads to individuals, research groups and small business spending months to years accumulating the necessary data to file for a patent. This long gestation period before the filing of patent (its certainly not at all like the general public's perception of a "light bulb" or eureka! moment) leaves these smaller groups vulnerable to the type of espionage and corruption that I have mentioned before. The IP issue is one that I am personally very familiar with, however as I mentioned in previous comments, there are several other, and arguably greater, risks involved with this kind of surveillance.

The integrity of the justice system and the financial system also relies heavily upon the ability to keep data confidential. This is why business, and financial institutions in particular, rely heavily upon encryption and the use of secure networks provided by VPN services. I am not in expert by any means in these fields, but from what I gather, it is a very important issue and one that has so far fallen outside the public debate hosted in the media. That, however, hasn't stopped several large companies like google from pursuing these cases in the court of law. I don't have the exact examples at hand, but you or I could look for them if you are interest as such.

Furthermore, the bedrock of a functioning Western society is not only its judicial or financial systems, but the fourth estate. The media has throughout contemporary US history been the greatest corrective force with regards to matters of larger-scale Govt. and financial corruption. Investigative journalism has a proven track-record (and a grand one at that) of exposing lies, collusion and conspiracies. Every war the US has fought since the Cuban-American war has featured revelations of lies and criminality that was exposed by critical journalism. It starts with the sinking of the Maine and the Lusitania, continues with the destruction of Dresden, the Katyn massacres, firebombing of Tokyo and the real results of the atomic bombs, the revelation of the gulf of Tonkin incident, the Iran-Contra revelations and finally (skipping over a lot of others) the war crimes in Haditha and the scale of embezzlement and waste in the "rebuilding" of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think that makes for a pretty conclusive case for the requirement of a free and unfettered press that is not under direct threat of imprisonment or worse from an eavesdropping Govt.

 

[JPNpower]

HELLOO does this comment work now!!!

Anyway, yes it is indeed true that professional privacy does need to be protected for ideas and innovations that have not been patented. If it is not it will lead to all the problems that you have listed. However, if we are talking about the NSA still, this doesn't really apply, as the point of the NSA is to track communications and to create a web of connections with possible terrorists. I do not think that they can raid in and access project info and just hand it off to its buddies. Of course, this is assuming that the idea holder is not as dumb as to layout every single detail of confidential info onto gmail. (sigh... Japan...)

Next, I do see your point of your final media comment, but I cannot tie it into any of your arguments. Is this a new argument?

Finally, I keep this short as I don't have much time now, and I don't want to waste more of it on another dead comment.

 

[nerrawg]

HELLOO does this comment work now!!!

Anyway, yes it is indeed true that professional privacy does need to be protected for ideas and innovations that have not been patented. If it is not it will lead to all the problems that you have listed. However, if we are talking about the NSA still, this doesn't really apply, as the point of the NSA is to track communications and to create a web of connections with possible terrorists. I do not think that they can raid in and access project info and just hand it off to its buddies. Of course, this is assuming that the idea holder is not as dumb as to layout every single detail of confidential info onto gmail. (sigh... Japan...)

Next, I do see your point of your final media comment, but I cannot tie it into any of your arguments. Is this a new argument?

Finally, I keep this short as I don't have much time now, and I don't want to waste more of it on another dead comment.

Yes I agree that if the NSA was only targeting terrorists or legitimate threats to US national security by rogue nations then that would be fine. The problem is that they have a well documented history of greatly overstepping those boundaries and their founding priniciples. PRISM and the other programmes are examples blanket surveillance with no legitimate targeting and without a true warrant (a warrant should have specific target and well defined limitations). The Stratfor leaks have also revealed that both the NSA and the FBI have deliberately leaked classified surveillance data to Corporations and private entities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfZExzKGkIc

So this kind of grave overstep of authority has already been well documented and is a real problem. As to the media comment, not sure if I have made it before, but it certainly is another important reason why better forms of oversight need to be implemented along with clear restrictions on the targeting of journalists, judges and other officials under the guise of blanket surveillance. Such investigation should have to require probable cause and be subject to a specific warrant issued by public (not secret) courts and due process as indicated by the law.

 

[nerrawg]

Anyway, yes it is indeed true that professional privacy does need to be protected for ideas and innovations that have not been patented. If it is not it will lead to all the problems that you have listed. However, if we are talking about the NSA still, this doesn't really apply, as the point of the NSA is to track communications and to create a web of connections with possible terrorists. I do not think that they can raid in and access project info and just hand it off to its buddies. Of course, this is assuming that the idea holder is not as dumb as to layout every single detail of confidential info onto gmail. (sigh... Japan...)

Here is another short vid explaining the current issues with corporate espionage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGtFxhh-AY

It was made before the revelations by Snowden, and while it outlines the risks for Govt. based IP espionage, it doesn't consider the fact that we now know that the NSA has the greatest resources and capabilities of any existing intelligence organisation, coupled with the now documented cases of it providing such intelligence to private intelligence firms like Stratfor that can then further sell the information to the highest bidder. As we currently lack any effective oversight or data on what data is actually being collected by the NSA, we have no way to know whether or not they are involved in much more serious cases of IP theft or the corrupt usage of stolen financial data. Again, this lack of knowledge does not in any way support a case for the NSA being innocent of such oversteps, but is critical case for the implementation of strict oversight and legislation regarding corporate espionage. Any kind of public debate on this important issue is however tragically absent in the media. It is the lack of public awareness, and thereby concern, that most worries me.

 

[JPNpower]

(dear internet, please let me though)

Like I said before, the security and oversight you want is definitely needed. This is supposedly the job of the CIA, FBI and such, but they don't seem to be doing it right. Although your case is now vastly superior to my original one, I still hold on to the argument that you cannot just distrust and call for the abolishment of all that is powerful yet not transparent. Public transparency and awareness, clear regulation and individual warrants all sound good, but defeat the purpose and efficiency of these organizations, as I stated above.

dear internet, let me though. BTW, when internet is faulty, you start to love copy/paste functions.

 

[Giovanni-L]

I don't really care if they are reading the stuff i type or monitoring my Skype calls. I just don't want them acting upon it. They can take invasive surveys, but as long as its used SOLELY for awareness, i'm ok. The moment they start acting upon those STOLEN information, i'll be increasingly angry. People's privacy is of no business to anyone but the ones to which they share the said privacy.

Polemic subjects are taboo. They should be discussed freely and openly.

Children having sex before 18 is nothing new. The true culprits are the parents "adultilizing" their children, by buying them adult stuff and teaching/allowing them how to be sexy and eye-candy in adult terms. THAT is wrong. The media doesn't help either, by producing TV shows that embrace child fashion modeling (darn, that is gross and nervwrecking) and so forth.

People that find children sexually arousing have mental issues. It's not their fault, at least not consciously... Its like telling gay people can't admire same-sex people. It's wrong, but its becoming acceptable. Of course its different (homosexuality happens at the mother's pregnancy, where hormonal disfunctions damage the balance of the baby's brain, causing natural sexual orientation to become abnormal).

 

[smeezekitty]

Children having sex before 18 is nothing new. The true culprits are the parents "adultilizing" their children, by buying them adult stuff and teaching/allowing them how to be sexy and eye-candy in adult terms. THAT is wrong. The media doesn't help either, by producing TV shows that embrace child fashion modeling (darn, that is gross and nervwrecking) and so forth.

People that find children sexually arousing have mental issues. It's not their fault, at least not consciously... Its like telling gay people can't admire same-sex people. It's wrong, but its becoming acceptable. Of course its different (homosexuality happens at the mother's pregnancy, where hormonal disfunctions damage the balance of the baby's brain, causing natural sexual orientation to become abnormal).

Woah topic drift!

 

[someperson123]

Furthermore, the bedrock of a functioning Western society is not only its judicial or financial systems, but the fourth estate. The media has throughout contemporary US history been the greatest corrective force with regards to matters of larger-scale Govt. and financial corruption. Investigative journalism has a proven track-record (and a grand one at that) of exposing lies, collusion and conspiracies. Every war the US has fought since the Cuban-American war has featured revelations of lies and criminality that was exposed by critical journalism. It starts with the sinking of the Maine and the Lusitania, continues with the destruction of Dresden, the Katyn massacres, firebombing of Tokyo and the real results of the atomic bombs, the revelation of the gulf of Tonkin incident, the Iran-Contra revelations and finally (skipping over a lot of others) the war crimes in Haditha and the scale of embezzlement and waste in the "rebuilding" of Iraq and Afghanistan. I think that makes for a pretty conclusive case for the requirement of a free and unfettered press that is not under direct threat of imprisonment or worse from an eavesdropping Govt.

I would like to add in here, that while media, when properly utilized, is an excellent check and balance for government, it becomes quite apparent that those of means are adept as using media for manipulating the populous. In present use, media is used by many as means to project sujective views on the world, carefully cherrypicking "facts" and presenting them in such a way as to provide validity to any claim. As such, the so-called "fourth estate" is really just as flawed as the rest of it, but it is as much necessary evil as the government it occasionally opposes.

 

[someperson123]

I don't really care if they are reading the stuff i type or monitoring my Skype calls. I just don't want them acting upon it. They can take invasive surveys, but as long as its used SOLELY for awareness, i'm ok. The moment they start acting upon those STOLEN information, i'll be increasingly angry. People's privacy is of no business to anyone but the ones to which they share the said privacy.

Polemic subjects are taboo. They should be discussed freely and openly.

Children having sex before 18 is nothing new. The true culprits are the parents "adultilizing" their children, by buying them adult stuff and teaching/allowing them how to be sexy and eye-candy in adult terms. THAT is wrong. The media doesn't help either, by producing TV shows that embrace child fashion modeling (darn, that is gross and nervwrecking) and so forth.

People that find children sexually arousing have mental issues. It's not their fault, at least not consciously... Its like telling gay people can't admire same-sex people. It's wrong, but its becoming acceptable. Of course its different (homosexuality happens at the mother's pregnancy, where hormonal disfunctions damage the balance of the baby's brain, causing natural sexual orientation to become abnormal).

I love the sly inference that homosexuality is a mental and/or chemical disorder. Great rhetoric that some political group or another would gladly use to push a hot button agenda.

However, what does underage sexuality and pedophiles have to do with the legality of PRISM?

 

[nerrawg]

I would like to add in here, that while media, when properly utilized, is an excellent check and balance for government, it becomes quite apparent that those of means are adept as using media for manipulating the populous. In present use, media is used by many as means to project sujective views on the world, carefully cherrypicking "facts" and presenting them in such a way as to provide validity to any claim. As such, the so-called "fourth estate" is really just as flawed as the rest of it, but it is as much necessary evil as the government it occasionally opposes.

Excellent Point!

Actually if you consider all the examples I mentioned, they were all first either ignored, factually misrepresented and/or used directly as a tool of misinformation to serve the interest of the State.

Here is what I think the definition of The Fourth Estate should be:
The media can only be only The Fourth Estate if it pursues truth in a critical and independent fashion. If it fails to do this it is either; simply the official stenographer of the state, or much worse, its PR agent actively complicit in obfuscating the truth .

Looking at the historical examples, Media being used by the State as a PR apparatus:
The sinking of the Maine - used as a tool to persuade the citizenry to war against Cuba
The sinking of the Lusitania - used as a tool to persuade the citizenry to enter WWI
Gulf of Tonkin incident - used to escalate the conflict in Vietnam to the level of a full-scale war with US troop deployment, this is a documented case of an actual conspiracy to misinform the US public

Historical examples of Media ignoring or missreprenting what happened:
Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima & Nagasaki - initially accounts regarding the scale of destruction and the impact on civilians were subject to strict censorship and can be considered disingenuous at best when you compare these reports to the reality we later discovered
Iran-Contra - Ignored at first, not taken seriously by several major news networks until evidence was made public that was irrefutable and made it publicly impossible to ignore
War Crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan + Criminal corruption - still under-reported and ignored in the media

So, yes, the media is just as guilty as the State is in many cases.

The critical difference is that, when the media actually properly functions as The Fourth Estate by fulfilling the aforementioned requirements, it alone provides us with the facts and truths that allow us make educated decisions. It was the media, or more specifically, the work of investigative journalists and their sources, that provided the later evidence and analysis of the events in the above examples. We are indebted to these people, whether we realise it or not, for now being able to know more of the truth.

Here are some of the contribution's of The Fourth Estate, in brief, to our understanding of the above mentioned historical cases:
The sinking of the Maine - No evidence that the Cuban government had anything to do with it
The sinking of the Lusitania - Was carrying armaments for the British, was a legitimate target for Germany
Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima & Nagasaki - Deliberate acts of mass-murder, all far exceeding a 90% civilian vs military casualty rate. Ultimately, it has been proved that strategic bombing did not slow or hinder armament production by the Axis, but that it primarily killed innocent people and made life living hell for those that survived. There is now very strong evidence that the use of nuclear weapons was not necessary to force capitulation on the same basis as it was argued at the time. There is also very strong evidence that many of the senior commanders in charge were aware of these facts.
[strike]Gulf of Tonkin incident -[/strike] There was no incident that matched what was originally reported
Iran-Contra - An elaborate financial system to arm anti-communist rebels by purchasing Iranian arms and selling illegal drugs, constructed and overseen by the CIA.
War Crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan + Criminal corruption - Huge scale impact of these crimes, implications of criminal activity by several individuals and organisations that is counter to both US and international law

So, while it is egregious that we continuously suffer the bombardment of miss-represented facts and spurious claims made by 24/7 news networks, we do not free or better ourselves by destroying the media. Getting rid of the rules and rights that protect independent investigative journalism because of the oversteps and missuses by some large organisations (wiretapping scandal by Murdoc's NewCorp) would be a critical blow to our own ability to make judgments and thereby live in some semblance of a democracy. Instead, i think we actually need to strengthen the laws that protect journalists and provide them greater protection to spy and monitor corporations, Govt. or large organisations, while restricting their rights to do the same when it comes to individuals (i.e. monitoring famous people to exploit personal intrigues) .

I think it is pretty clear that the slogan: "Transparency for Govt. and Corporations, Privacy for People (individuals)" is the morally defensible standpoint that we should be working from, and not the opposite direction our legislative bodies are currently pursuing.

 

[nerrawg]

I don't really care if they are reading the stuff i type or monitoring my Skype calls. I just don't want them acting upon it. They can take invasive surveys, but as long as its used SOLELY for awareness, i'm ok. The moment they start acting upon those STOLEN information, i'll be increasingly angry. People's privacy is of no business to anyone but the ones to which they share the said privacy.

Polemic subjects are taboo. They should be discussed freely and openly.

Children having sex before 18 is nothing new. The true culprits are the parents "adultilizing" their children, by buying them adult stuff and teaching/allowing them how to be sexy and eye-candy in adult terms. THAT is wrong. The media doesn't help either, by producing TV shows that embrace child fashion modeling (darn, that is gross and nervwrecking) and so forth.

People that find children sexually arousing have mental issues. It's not their fault, at least not consciously... Its like telling gay people can't admire same-sex people. It's wrong, but its becoming acceptable. Of course its different (homosexuality happens at the mother's pregnancy, where hormonal disfunctions damage the balance of the baby's brain, causing natural sexual orientation to become abnormal).

I love the sly inference that homosexuality is a mental and/or chemical disorder. Great rhetoric that some political group or another would gladly use to push a hot button agenda.

However, what does underage sexuality and pedophiles have to do with the legality of PRISM?

To answer that question (I'm sure you already know): NOTHING

That is why I purposefully ignored his comment, it has no merit whatsoever, but I guess its alright that you point this out for others.

 

[nerrawg]

"NSA and GCHQ unlock privacy and security on the internet"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-gchq-encryption-codes-security

As I thought but lacked evidence of before this leak, there is almost no confidential encryption for banks or companies anymore, the NSA can breach all of it now. This is huge, this basically proves what people have been saying all along for the last 10 years that the US intelligence agencies are the biggest theat to global economic security. With this power they could easily destroy the free-market if they choose to misuse it. As we discussed this is much bigger than personal privacy, it is about the NSA being able to monitor and thereby potentially exert control or manipulate Wall Street, the US judicial system, all elected politicians and anyone who has confidential IP. The NSA has not been given this authority, it has taken it on its own accord without notifying the American public.

 

[smeezekitty]

Time for 16KBIT encryption? LOL
So much for America being a "free" country