[REVIEW/ANALYSIS] of The Dreamhold, potential SPOILERS inc..

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Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

> Kerr's book was my first exposure to the idea of a magical memory
> palace.
>
> More recently, there's a short story by Mary Gentle -- I think it's
> "Beggars in Satin", but I could have the title wrong.

"Peace", by Gene Wolfe - the idea is not exactly explored - certainly
not explained - but it's certainly present in the structuring of the novel.

jon
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Emily wrote:

>Anyway. Thanks for writing the critique, and offering the extra
>background on memory palaces -- I'd forgotten the details of the
memory
>theater.

Dreamhold does not appear to be a very good game -- it doesn't break
any new ground, puzzles aren't that exciting, memory palace concept not
totally new -- certainly not worth all the analysis that's been posted
here and elsewhere. The only purpose it seems to have is to provide a
tutorial for new players. It doesn't seem fun enough and the hints
don't work well enough, to justify all the commentary. Would people be
giving it this much thought if it weren't one of AP's games? Just
wondering.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dreamhold does not appear to be a very good game

I see you're posting from a brand-new hotmail account.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <1103547884.599102.171010@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Dreamhold does not appear to be a very good game -- it doesn't break
>any new ground, puzzles aren't that exciting, memory palace concept not
>totally new -- certainly not worth all the analysis that's been posted
>here and elsewhere. The only purpose it seems to have is to provide a
>tutorial for new players. It doesn't seem fun enough and the hints
>don't work well enough, to justify all the commentary. Would people be
>giving it this much thought if it weren't one of AP's games? Just
>wondering.

I'm a newbie -- played Adventure 20+ years ago at college, then nothing until
last week. I knew AP only as the author of "Hunter, In Darkness" (on which
I'm currently stuck waiting for inspiration). I am playing Dreamhold because
(a) it's being discussed (b) it is advertised as a "tutorial". It has been
fun so far, so is succeeding for its apparent main target audience.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

jon syas:

"Peace", by Gene Wolfe - the idea is not exactly explored - certainly
not explained - but it's certainly present in the structuring of the
novel.

-------------------------

Wolfe's two Latro stories (collected as Latro in the Mist) include it
explicitly, as a method taught to the memory-impaired protagonist in
5th cent BCE Athens. His memory palace is *way* cool.

The stories themselves are the normal superb Wolfean works of
craftsmanship; but the plot is even more elliptical and opaque than
Dreamhold's back-story (joke, joke).
[BTW, WTF is with this new google groups not auto-quoting on replies?]
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <1103547884.599102.171010@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It doesn't seem fun enough and the hints
>don't work well enough, to justify all the commentary. Would people be
>giving it this much thought if it weren't one of AP's games? Just
>wondering.

Sure, if it were this well written.

But that would probably mean it was an Emily Short, Adam Cadre, or
Graham Nelson game instead.

Adam
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Adam Thornton wrote:
> In article <1103547884.599102.171010@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >It doesn't seem fun enough and the hints
> >don't work well enough, to justify all the commentary. Would people
> >be giving it this much thought if it weren't one of AP's games? Just
> >wondering.
>
> Sure, if it were this well written.
>
> But that would probably mean it was an Emily Short, Adam Cadre, or
> Graham Nelson game instead.

Or Gareth Rees.

--
MSC
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Andrew Plotkin wrote:

>>Here, Mark S. Cipolone <mscipol...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>> > In article
<1103547884.599102.171...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> > Dee <dfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> > >It doesn't seem fun enough and the hints
>> > >don't work well enough, to justify all the commentary. Would
people
>> > >be giving it this much thought if it weren't one of AP's games?
Just
>> > >wondering.

>> > Sure, if it were this well written.

>> > But that would probably mean it was an Emily Short, Adam Cadre, or
>> > Graham Nelson game instead.

>> Or Gareth Rees.

>Or ten other authors I could name off the top of my head. Come on,
>folks, don't do the troll's work for him.

But that begs the question. What constitutes a good game, worthy of
discussion? Other questions:

-- Is a "well-written" game synonymous with a good game?
-- Is a game by a well-known author going to be discussed a lot,
whether it's good, bad or indifferent? (And how do you get well-known
on this site, other than writing games for the IF Comp?)
-- Does any "well-written" game -- despite the lack of visibility of
the author -- get this level of discussion?

Just curious. The troll ref notwithstanding (one slightly negative
post makes a troll?), what games (types, genres, authors, etc.) are
likely to draw the most discussion here?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Mark S. Cipolone <mscipolone@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Adam Thornton wrote:
> > In article <1103547884.599102.171010@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >It doesn't seem fun enough and the hints
> > >don't work well enough, to justify all the commentary. Would people
> > >be giving it this much thought if it weren't one of AP's games? Just
> > >wondering.
> >
> > Sure, if it were this well written.
> >
> > But that would probably mean it was an Emily Short, Adam Cadre, or
> > Graham Nelson game instead.
>
> Or Gareth Rees.

Or ten other authors I could name off the top of my head. Come on,
folks, don't do the troll's work for him.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> But that begs the question. What constitutes a good game, worthy of
> discussion?

Bit of an ongoing question, that. What constitutes a good book?

> Other questions:
>
> -- Is a "well-written" game synonymous with a good game?

Depends how you mean it. I've seen games with good prose writing but
poor design. But I think the quotes upthread meant "a well-written
game" in the sense of a high-quality game overall.

> -- Is a game by a well-known author going to be discussed a lot,
> whether it's good, bad or indifferent?

Yes.

I'm probably an outlying statistic, because I like this ambiguous,
elliptical style of storytelling, which incites a lot of discussion.
It's not that it's per se better than everybody else; just fun to
speculate about. Or so I assume.

Also, of course, I've been engaging the discussion about the help
system, since I want to improve it. That leads to a lot of posts.

> (And how do you get well-known
> on this site, other than writing games for the IF Comp?)

I wish I knew. Writing a lot of games still works, as far as I can
tell. I will assume the community is healthy as long as that remains
true.

> -- Does any "well-written" game -- despite the lack of visibility of
> the author -- get this level of discussion?

Do you mean "every" well-written game? No. Partially for the reasons I
mention above.

> Just curious. The troll ref notwithstanding (one slightly negative
> post makes a troll?)

I didn't necessarily mean you. I haven't decided about you yet.

Your first post was not just "slightly negative", but *prescriptively*
negative. You picked the least positive points of everything anyone
had said, distorted them (why *should* the memory palace idea have
been "totally new"? That was a discussion of influence, not a
criticism) and then presented the result as if it were the agreed
concensus of the newsgroup so far.

You also ended with "Just wondering", which in my experience is
invariably a lie wrapped around a nasty innuendo.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <cq9kdf$ah5$1@reader2.panix.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com> wrote:
>Come on, folks, don't do the troll's work for him.

But if we do, then he'll be out of a job, and then he'll have to go back
to being a greeter at Wal-Mart. It's a win-win situation, except
possibly for the Wal-Mart shoppers.

Adam
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <1103658728.425049.271710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>But that begs the question. What constitutes a good game, worthy of
>discussion? Other questions:
>
>-- Is a "well-written" game synonymous with a good game?

Nope.

>-- Is a game by a well-known author going to be discussed a lot,
>whether it's good, bad or indifferent? (And how do you get well-known
>on this site, other than writing games for the IF Comp?)

Dunno. I don't think "Common Ground" got a lot of discussion, despite
being well-written and by a well-known author.

>-- Does any "well-written" game -- despite the lack of visibility of
>the author -- get this level of discussion?

Yeah. Plenty of games get more discussion than this.

Me, I'd like to see a nice juicy _Necrotic Drift_ thread.

Adam
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Magnus Olsson

> >Looks like a CABAL member revision to me... 😉
>
> Shhh... don't mention the Cabal. Which doesn't exist, by the way.

That "joke" has grown a grey beard by now.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Dee <dforsx@hotmail.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:1103547884.599102.171010@c13g2000cwb.googlegrou
ps.com...
> Emily wrote:
>
> >Anyway. Thanks for writing the critique, and offering the extra
> >background on memory palaces -- I'd forgotten the details of the
> memory
> >theater.
>
> Dreamhold does not appear to be a very good game -- it doesn't break
> any new ground, puzzles aren't that exciting, memory palace concept not
> totally new -- certainly not worth all the analysis that's been posted
> here and elsewhere. The only purpose it seems to have is to provide a
> tutorial for new players. It doesn't seem fun enough and the hints
> don't work well enough, to justify all the commentary. Would people be
> giving it this much thought if it weren't one of AP's games? Just
> wondering.

I disagree. The writing is forced and heavy-handed and the back-story is
vague enough to be profound, but the playing experience was fun enough to
justify investing two hours of my time, which is more than I can say about
the majority of the comp games.

I was, however, somewhat taken aback by the author's response to your
criticism. I understand that he's some kind of big shot around here, but
calling people names just because they happen to dislike one's game is
*never* a good idea.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Tobias Thelen <thelentob@utfors.se> wrote:
>
> I disagree. The writing is forced and heavy-handed

Same troll. Same ISP, same IP address.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:cqcr3s$rrb$1@reader1.panix.com...
> Here, Tobias Thelen <thelentob@utfors.se> wrote:
> >
> > I disagree. The writing is forced and heavy-handed
>
> Same troll. Same ISP, same IP address.

Andrew Plotkin, rec.games.int-fiction, 2004-11-17:

When you write a game, you have to be prepared for players to not like
it. And you do not get to write down a list of acceptable reasons for
them to dislike it. That's the player's job. :) Your job is smile and
nod and, if necessary, say "I'm sorry it didn't work for you."


Gee, it's a good thing you live as you learn.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Here, Tobias Thelen <thelentob@utfors.se> wrote:
>
> Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com> skrev i
> diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:cqcr3s$rrb$1@reader1.panix.com...
> > Here, Tobias Thelen <thelentob@utfors.se> wrote:
> > >
> > > I disagree. The writing is forced and heavy-handed
> >
> > Same troll. Same ISP, same IP address.
>
> Andrew Plotkin, rec.games.int-fiction, 2004-11-17:
>
> When you write a game, you have to be prepared for players to not like
> it. And you do not get to write down a list of acceptable reasons for
> them to dislike it. That's the player's job. :) Your job is smile and
> nod and, if necessary, say "I'm sorry it didn't work for you."

You're not a player.

--Z

"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
I'm still thinking about what to put in this space.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:17 GMT, Anthony Mahler <antmahler@mail.com> wrote:
>Magnus Olsson
>
>> >Looks like a CABAL member revision to me... 😉
>>
>> Shhh... don't mention the Cabal. Which doesn't exist, by the way.
>
>That "joke" has grown a grey beard by now.
>
>
>
Every time you mention the Cabal, God kills a kitten.

Which, when added to the ones which dissapear mysteriously without a
trace whenever someone mentions the Cabal, is a consiterable number of
cats removed from play.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com> wrote:
> Here, Magnus Olsson <mol@df.lth.se> wrote:

> > On a tangent, Katharine Kerr has a neat treatment of a wizard's memory
> > palace taking on some kind of lief of its own (well, kind of) in one
> > of her Deverry books.

> Kerr's book was my first exposure to the idea of a magical memory
> palace.

> More recently, there's a short story by Mary Gentle -- I think it's
> "Beggars in Satin", but I could have the title wrong.

There's also Jeffrey Ford's _Memoranda_ (the sequel to _The Physiognomy_), which
is almost entirely set in a memory palace.

--
_______________________________________________________________________
Dan Blum tool@panix.com
"I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't just made it up."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

lraszewski@loyola.edu (L. Ross Raszewski) wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:17 GMT, Anthony Mahler <antmahler@mail.com> wrote:
>>Magnus Olsson
>>
>>> >Looks like a CABAL member revision to me... 😉
>>>
>>> Shhh... don't mention the Cabal. Which doesn't exist, by the way.
>>
>>That "joke" has grown a grey beard by now.

>Every time you mention the Cabal, God kills a kitten.
>
>Which, when added to the ones which dissapear mysteriously without a
>trace whenever someone mentions the Cabal, is a consiterable number of
>cats removed from play.

There go two more, you #$%#$!

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

lraszewski@loyola.edu (L. Ross Raszewski) wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:17 GMT, Anthony Mahler <antmahler@mail.com> wrote:
> >Magnus Olsson
> >
> >> >Looks like a CABAL member revision to me... 😉
> >>
> >> Shhh... don't mention the Cabal. Which doesn't exist, by the way.
> >
> >That "joke" has grown a grey beard by now.
> >
> Every time you mention the Cabal, God kills a kitten.

Cabal. Cabal cabal cabal cabal. Cabal cabal. Cabal.

Richard, trying to protect the blackbirds in his garden. Damn all cats.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <cqcr3s$rrb$1@reader1.panix.com>,
Andrew Plotkin <erkyrath@eblong.com> wrote:
>Here, Tobias Thelen <thelentob@utfors.se> wrote:
>>
>> I disagree. The writing is forced and heavy-handed
>
>Same troll. Same ISP, same IP address.

And same M.O.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

In article <YEzyd.7133$L7.2457@trnddc05>,
L. Ross Raszewski <lraszewski@loyola.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:17 GMT, Anthony Mahler <antmahler@mail.com> wrote:
>>Magnus Olsson
>>
>>> >Looks like a CABAL member revision to me... 😉
>>>
>>> Shhh... don't mention the Cabal. Which doesn't exist, by the way.
>>
>>That "joke" has grown a grey beard by now.
>>
>>
>>
>Every time you mention the Cabal, God kills a kitten.

Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.
Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.Cabal.

(did I mention that I'm allergic to cats and I love it when the Big
Guy does the wet work?)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.int-fiction (More info?)

"L. Ross Raszewski" <lraszewski@loyola.edu> wrote in message
news:YEzyd.7133$L7.2457@trnddc05...
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 18:18:17 GMT, Anthony Mahler <antmahler@mail.com>
wrote:
> >Magnus Olsson
> >
> >> >Looks like a CABAL member revision to me... 😉
> >>
> >> Shhh... don't mention the Cabal. Which doesn't exist, by the way.
> >
> >That "joke" has grown a grey beard by now.
> >
> >
> >
> Every time you mention the Cabal, God kills a kitten.

So God's a Stephen Lynch fan, then?
 
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