Sapphire X800 GTO AGP vs. Club 3D X800RX AGP

[Bopper]

I have decided to get an X800 GTO. I could have the Club 3D card today, however I have tried looking on the net and have seen that nobody has been succesful in opening the pipes in the X800RX version, while they have been succesful in the X800 GTO version. They are basically the same cards with a different name, except it seems that the RX has had its pipelines physically cut. Should I wait a few weeks for the Sapphire to come out and then buy that, or is it indeed possible to open the pipes on the RX?

 

[Bopper]

Woops just found out the GTO card does not support shader model 3.0. If so, then forget it 😛

 

[Bopper]

And now I am getting reports that the X800 GTO AGP does in fact have shader model 3.0 support. Now I am confused.

 

[Bopper]

Now a new X800XL is coming out for a little over 200 euros, but I have never heard of this maker. Should I wait for it instead?


PALIT X800 XL AGP 256MB 256BIT GDDR-3

 

[rmthompson]

And now I am getting reports that the X800 GTO AGP does in fact have shader model 3.0 support. Now I am confused.

Trust me the Sapphire X800 GTO AGP is a good card, I just unlocked mine after a scary flashing incident!

It does not have Shader Model 3.0 support, but it has more vertex shaders than it's closest AGP competition; the AGP 6800GS.

In fact the 6800GS DOES have Shader Model 3.0 support, but many people have said it's too weak to really support it, since the higher end games that really use Shader Model 3 would not be able to run on highest quality on a 6800GS...

The X800GTO is a good card. I got the R430 version and it was unlockable, but is not able to OC that high.

Other versions might not be able to unlock... beware! (But usually will OC higher)

Good luck!

 

[Xabbo]

Never mind i screwed up. Its 12.

 

[GeneticWeapon]

You should get a 6800GS, maybe an Overclock model.

If you buy an X800 series card, you get no HDR/Sm3.0 support, and it sucks not having it.

 

[cleeve]

GW is a SM 3.0 WHORE! 😛


Seriously though, the X800 series does not support SM 3.0. However, that's not the killer feature that everyone is attributing to it. While others may feel differently, the only 'must have' feature on a SM 3.0 card is the ability to use HDR, and the 6800 GS is on the virge of being unable to use that feature effectively because it's such a performance killer.

Given the choice between an X800 XL or 6800 GS, i'd pick the X800 XL personally, it's a bit faster at stock speeds.

The 6800 GS would be a fine choice too though, and has the potential of unlocking pipelines if you're into tinkering.... it comes with 12 pipelines enabled, but if you're lucky you can unlock it to 16.

 

[GeneticWeapon]

since the higher end games that really use Shader Model 3 would not be able to run on highest quality on a 6800GS...

Games that use SM3.0 cannot be run in highest quality mode on your card either :roll:

Think about what your saying :roll:

Most 6800GS's will perform better than your card, plus offer shader model 3/HDR support.

I wish you had a clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[GeneticWeapon]

GW is a SM 3.0 WHORE! 😛

It's simply a feature people should have if they buy a new card 8)

 

[rmthompson]

GW is a SM 3.0 WHORE! 😛

It's simply a feature people should have if they buy a new card 8)

Why?

Lets look at this logically..

SM 3.0 is a newer feature that is ONLY going to be able to used on newer, higher ended games, equivalent to or more challenging than, let's say, F.E.A.R.

An AGP card under 200 dollars is NOT going to be running this game at the highest settings...

SO, if someone is looking for a card of this nature, then why should they look for that feature? It's not going to be powerful enough to utilize this feature.

It's sort of like putting a winch on a KIA Rio... it's a nice feature to have, but it won't haul a damn thing.

 

[GeneticWeapon]

Lets look at this logically..

We cant do this if you dont understand what SM3.0 really is :roll:

An AGP card under 200 dollars is NOT going to be running this game at the highest settings...

Neither will an underpowered GTO. There are games like Far Cry and Serious Sam 2 that play well at high settings on a 6800GS :roll:

SO, if someone is looking for a card of this nature, then why should they look for that feature? It's not going to be powerful enough to utilize this feature.

What feature are you talking about?

Sm3.0 enables more instructions per pass, I'm going to quote some of the programmers from Crytek, and I want you to read it so we dont get into this stupid argument again.

http://techreport.com/etc/2004q3/crytek/index.x?pg=1

Yerli said Shader Model 3.0 doesn't bring any change in visual fidelity, just better performance. In fact, he emphasized the point repeatedly during our conversation. In the case of pixel shaders, lighting some objects covered with shader-based materials using Shader Model 2.0 required multiple passes—one pass per light. If the object were affected by three lights, the pixel would have to take three passes through the rendering pipeline. With Shader Model 3.0, Crytek was able to consolidate its per-pixel lighting work so that up to four lights can be rendered in a single pass.

If you cant understand this, then I give up on you. You keep babbling about features, and maybe you're talking about HDR or geometry instancing, I dunno. The only thing I do know is that I crack up whenever I read your little speach about the 6800 series not being strong enough to support sm3.0, when sm3.0 in itself helps the 6800 series play games better.


I keep thinking you'll have a strong argument to counter with in these discussions of ours, but your lack of knowledge on the subject is disapointing to say the least :roll:

 

[raven_87]

Hmm.

Provided none of the vertex shaders or pipelines are damaged (which is rare from factory) most anything NV40 based will unlocked. I've seen 2 6800's and one 6800GS unlock to 16x1, 5vp.

So in this sense, I agree with GW on the decision towards the GS.
As for the 6800GS and SM 3.0 "Playing games better" - perhaps under the Crytek engine, however I've yet to see a card that supports SM 3.0 not take preformance hits while enabled...

Is this quote refering to Farcry? Or to Crysis? *Didnt bother to read the link*

 

[pauldh]

GW, I'm not really following you. Just like we talked about back in the GF6/X8xx days, how valuable is it to have a SM3.0 performance boost if it's not even enough to make it compete with a SM2.0 card? If the IQ is the same, I'll go with the card providing the higher framerates, whether it's using SM3.0 or SM2.0.

I look at the X800GTO and 6800GS alot like my 6800U and X800XTpe. Even in farcy my BFG 6800U loses to the X800XTpe; Especially with fsaa. (I prefer 12x10 max 4X/16X). So say the 6800U is getting better perfomance running sm3 codepath. WHo really cares if it still loses to a card running a slower codepath. I just think the numbers speak for themselves and don't really consider the perfomance boost beyond that. It's a given I'd pick the Sm3 card if all else is equal. But in Farcry, the 6800U is behind running fsaa and tanks running HDR, so what's the Sm3 benefit of a GF6 in that game?

In Digi-lifes farcry charts, the X800XL beats the 6800U and the X800 GTO beats the 350/1000 clocked 6800 (6800GS AGP reference clocks) I should say... I've seen other reviews where the 6800U fairs much better though.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/1105/itogi-video-fc1-wxp-aaa-1280-agp.html

 

[GeneticWeapon]

Hmm.

Provided none of the vertex shaders or pipelines are damaged (which is rare from factory) most anything NV40 based will unlocked. I've seen 2 6800's and one 6800GS unlock to 16x1, 5vp.

So in this sense, I agree with GW on the decision towards the GS.
As for the 6800GS and SM 3.0 "Playing games better" - perhaps under the Crytek engine, however I've yet to see a card that supports SM 3.0 not take preformance hits while enabled...

Is this quote refering to Farcry? Or to Crysis? *Didnt bother to read the link*

It was refering the sm3.0 path being enabled through a patch in FarCry, and I thought it was a good representation of what we're talking about here.

Sm3.0 brings better performance to cards that support it, not hinder it like some of the retarded posters here have been proclaiming :roll:

 

[raven_87]

Very true.

And the new Crysis engine and UT2007 will be the same.

However I was looking at how long this GPU will last him.
As current games (aside from Farcry) tend to make mid-ranged cards
dip to low frame rates while utilizing SM 3.0 (ala AOE 3 or BFME:2 as good examples)

So if he does not plan on holding onto the GPU as a longterm solution.
Either the GTO or GS will provide to be suitable (I'm still leaning towards the GS though)

As for the longterm (6months+) then obviously the recommendation goes to the 6800.

 

[GeneticWeapon]

how valuable is it to have a SM3.0 performance boost if it's not even enough to make it compete with a SM2.0 card?

The sm2.0 card in which we are speaking about is an R430 cored X800GTO, that is supposedly unlocked and overclocked.

You constanly quote reviews of cards running at stock speeds to me, when you know I dont live in that world.

Overclocking(and possibly unlocking) a 6800GS will garner better framerates/gameplay then a piss-poor R430 GTO can, and many GS's are OC models, etc, that really dont show any relevence to the reviews you're quoting.

It's a bit unfair that we're talking about cards at their full potential(overclocked, unlocked) and your spitting out these default speed benchmarks at me to drive home a point that misses it's mark on me completely:roll:

Thanks for providing the GTO side of the argument though, things were starting to get to be no fun.....

 

[GeneticWeapon]

Suck on this :roll:

 

[raven_87]

Yeah, but at that price he might as well aim for a 7800GS..... 8)

 

[GeneticWeapon]

Yeah, but at that price he might as well aim for a 7800GS..... 8)

Ummmm.....at what price are you talking about?

 

[raven_87]

Yeah, but at that price he might as well aim for a 7800GS..... 8)

Ummmm.....at what price are you talking about?

NV partners MSRP the cards (that I've seen online) $340-$385.

 

[GeneticWeapon]

Yeah, but at that price he might as well aim for a 7800GS..... 8)

Ummmm.....at what price are you talking about?

NV partners MSRP the cards (that I've seen online) $340-$385.
That's incorrect on that card.

You need to post a link to a price on that card since you're in this now.

 

[raven_87]

*sigh* Alright

While I"m getting mine....what prices are you hearing?

 

[pauldh]

Well, I'm not trying to peev ya off GW; you know I'm a fan. :roll: :tongue:

I was trying to comment on the Sm3 performance boost you speak of. And personally I don't see that side of the arguement meaning much as generally the X800 series keeps up with or defeats it's equivelent 6800 series card in games that the GF6's should have the speed boost advantage. Of course each have certain games they clearly win. But I compare and recommend based on best stock bang for the buck. All I really care about is the best real world gaming experience for the price, reguardless of brand. And since the 6800's suck at HDR and the performance boost they are getting doesn't put them in the lead in games such as farcry, then to me Sm3 for GF6 still means little. Priced the same, I'd buy the 6800GS for sure; but they aren't priced the same.

As far as overclocking/unlocking... I agree with you and can see your point. I don't at all question you liking the 6800GS more based on max enthusiast potential. You are a freakin nut job when it comes to that stuff, and I mean that as a compliment. It does seem the 6800GS is the better card for that compared to the GTO and in the end if someone like yourself had a few of each to mess with, I don't doubt a 6800GS would come out on top. So I understand your quarrel with Thomson as he unlocked his card and post 3dmarks, which you are saying the 6800GS would have done better. But that doesn't mean it's the better card for everyone, especially based on current pricing.

Personally, I'd buy a $160 X800GTO or better yet $185 X800XL anyday over a $200+ 6800GS, especially since 4/5 cards I buy are not mine to keep and I'm not going to OC/mod cards for a customer. I just haven't seen any reason to think that the BFG 6800U's SM3 has given me anything except the ability to toy with HDR in some games the X800XTpe can not. So I also don't see a 6800GS AGP being worth more than a X800XL. Make sense?

 

[raven_87]

Well, I've got my links....just wanted to see your's first bud.

EDIT: At least give me the street price your hearing...

Second EDIT:

I'll give you this much, PCI-E prices are much more attractive than AGP 8O 8O