SATA 4, 12 Gb/s (SATAe 16 Gb/s) for SSD's?

[josejones]

I'm just curious if there's any idea when SATA 4, 12 Gbit/s (SATAe 16 Gbit/s) might be coming out, at least for Solid State Drives (SSD's) ?

I've seen no mention of it at all over at Serial ATA - maybe somebody could ask them? There's no mention of SATA 4 at Wiki either - Serial ATA.

Is SATA 4 even in the pipe? SSD's seem to be making some great strides so, it seemed like SATA 4 would be coming at some point.

Added edit: SSDs to get faster with SATA Express = 16Gb/s

 

[josejones]

Adaptec to Demo 6600 MB/s Bandwidth Over PCIe 3.0

 

[sewalk]

If you read that article, it says that any product Adaptec is likely to use with that new PCIe 3.0 Raid-on-Chip will still use 6.0Gb/s SATA/SAS interfaces, the difference is that it can support up to 24 ports, hence the need for that much bandwidth.

 

[josejones]

New from SATA march 8th: SSDs to get faster with SATA Express

 

[josejones]

"Newer standards won't matter for HDD, but SSD drives could always use more bandwidth. The advantage of SATA Express is twofold. First, the bandwidth is greater, in comparison with SATA 6Gbps. 16Gbps is the equivalent of a PCIe 2.0 x4 connection, or what powers a RevoDrive 3 X2. Therefore, with this type of connection, you could build drives with 2GB/s reads and writes. Second, the latency would be even less, having a direct connection to the CPU instead of having to go through the South Bridge or a SATA controller and all that logic.

Why is this beneficial?

Faster virus scans.
Faster movement of files.
Faster boot.
Faster loading of applications.

These times are not instant now so cutting away about 3/4 of the time could be quite beneficial. With SSD's, they are held back not from the flash itself, but from the connection. That is why we are seeing so much growth in the PCIe SSD market. "

“We expect the SATA Express specification to be completed by the end of 2011.”

http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=1168536&mpage=1&print=true

So this new SATA Express 16Gb/s standard for SSD's could potentially be out in time for Intel's Haswell CPU?

 

[k1114]

No, this was the first thing we talked about; look in my first post. The specs are released so products are all compatible. And according to the article you posted just before.

DRAMeXchange predicts that commercial implementations won't appear until 2014 at the absolute earliest.

 

[josejones]

Here's the latest news from SATA:



Why SATA Express?
http://www.sata-io.org/documents/SATA_Express_Article_2012.pdf

 

[josejones]

Speedy 8Gbit, 16Gbit SATA Express systems coming this year
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9235229/Speedy_8Gbit_16Gbit_SATA_Express_systems_coming_this_year

 

[purple stain]

Thunderbolt seems to be the "new thing" with transfer rates of 10Gb/s.My assumption is that this is going to replace USB and probably SATA.But who knows.Still to early to tell.

One thing that troubles me is that if they are tapping into the PCI-E that might mean stealing bandwidth from Crossfire/SLI setups.I'd like some clarification on that if anyone can.

 

[k1114]

Tb is being seen as an external connection. I'd expect it to replace usb and firewire but elsewhere is still up in the air. Sata is slower than other connections available now but is still the standard. If you wanted the utmost speed on one device, then people would get a pcie ssd.

It will take pcie lanes, but just as tb is now, it shouldn't affect sli/cf. IB has 16 3.0 lanes and z77 has another 8 2.0 lanes. 990fx is 16+6. You can search all the current tb mobos are still 8/8.

 

[robisinho]

SATA express is basically done and devices are expected towards the end of this year (I was just searching for it, saw it all over — techreport was the last site I was on that said that).

 

[josejones]

So, we did end up getting the Ivy Bridge CPU in August of 2012. It's such a better system over the old PC from 2004 ; ) :

CPU: Ivy Bridge i7 3770
MB: Gigabyte z77 UD5
RAM: Mushkin 8g DDR3 1600
SSD: Mushkin Enhanced Chronos Deluxe DX 240g
HD: 1T WD Black

---

SATA Express 3.2 16Gb/s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATA_Express

April 17, 2013 - Report: Intel 9-Series Will Feature 10-16 Gb/s SATA Express
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/SATA-Intel-Express-Storage,22069.html

Nov 13, 2013 Report: Intel's 9-series chipsets won't support SATA Express
http://techreport.com/news/25649/report-intel-9-series-chipsets-wont-support-sata-express

Dec 20, 2013 - ASUS is ready for SATA Express - Early tech and performance preview
http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/5974/asus-is-ready-for-sata-express-early-tech-and-performance-preview/index.html

 

[josejones]

4T, 8T & 16T SSDs at 12Gb/s available 3rd Q of 2014

http://www.tomsitpro.com/articles/sandisk-4-tb-optimus-ssd-lightning,1-1925.html

http://www.sandisk.com/enterprise/sas-ssd/lightning-ultra-ssd/

Lightning Gen. II 12Gb/s SAS SSDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSyAFQdrjw4

 

[sr1030nx]

I'm just curious if there's any idea when SATA 4, 12 Gbit/s (SATAe 16 Gbit/s) might be coming out, at least for Solid State Drives (SSD's) ?

I've seen no mention of it at all over at Serial ATA - maybe somebody could ask them? There's no mention of SATA 4 at Wiki either - Serial ATA.

Is SATA 4 even in the pipe? SSD's seem to be making some great strides so, it seemed like SATA 4 would be coming at some point.

Added edit: SSDs to get faster with SATA Express = 16Gb/s

SataExpress is the new sata standard. There will be no sata 4.
SataExpress uses a new type of connector that is backwards compatible with current sata standards.
If you curious what the connector looks like search for the new Intel z97 motherboards.

 

[josejones]

I am curious to find out about what ever happened to the claims over 12 and 16 g/ps SSD's coming out in 2014?

Have standard hard drives hit their limit or will there be performance increases there in 2015? How long 'till we have SATA 4?

SATA revision 3.2 (16 Gbit/s, 1969 MB/s)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#SATA_revision_3.2_.2816_Gbit.2Fs.2C_1969_MB.2Fs.29

Speedy 8Gbit, 16Gbit SATA Express systems coming this year
http://www.computerworld.com/articl...it-sata-express-systems-coming-this-year.html

4T, 8T & 16T SSDs at 12Gb/s available 3rd Q of 2014

http://www.tomsitpro.com/articles/sandisk-4-tb-optimus-ssd-lightning,1-1925.html

http://www.sandisk.com/enterprise/sas-ssd/lightning-ultra-ssd/

Lightning Gen. II 12Gb/s SAS SSDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSyAFQdrjw4

 

[k1114]

Hdd haven't risen much since ever. The only reason to push sata further is ssds. You'd have no real difference putting a current hdd or even an ssd on a sata 1 port. The max bandwidth is irrelevant to most people. 3.2 systems have been out for awhile, haswell refresh, and as you can see there are still no sata e and hardly any m2 so why already look at sata 4? You can't really lump sas with sata.

 

[josejones]

November 30th 2014: PCI Express provides a much higher-capacity path to storage drives than SATA does.

"It turns out that the SSDs that ship alongside HDDs in today's computers are handcuffed in performance, limited not by the capabilities of the NVRAM chip array inside, but by the interconnect that carries the data back and forth to the system's CPU and memory."

"The vast majority of SSDs shipped to date have come installed in computers' SATA drive bays, which are designed for HDDs and connected to the motherboard via a serial cable whose signaling and data rates are governed by the Serial ATA (SATA) standard. Though it's a clean and capable interface to support an HDD's lower performance, today's pervasive SATA revision (3.0) can't keep up with the rates an SSD can deliver. Tying a screaming-fast SSD to performance-throttled SATA is like driving a Lamborghini and never leaving the slow lane."

"PCI Express: Autobahn for SSDs

Of course, where there's an obvious system bottleneck, you can bet that engineers will be working to eliminate it. And that leads us to a relatively new choice in storage options: PCI Express SSDs."

"SSDs supporting PCIe Gen 3, capable of twice the bandwidth of Gen 2 (with the same number of lanes), will be appearing soon. And PCIe's edge over current serial SATA is so compelling that SATA itself is adopting it. SATA Express, formerly referred to as SATA Revision 3.2, will support a new (and backward-compatible) connector that will not only carry SATA serial lines but two or four PCIe lanes."

http://www.cadalyst.com/hardware/workstations/interface-choice-ssds-21388

Welcome to the fast-moving world of flash connectors
http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2014/11/13/flash_connectors/

 

[yumri]

@josejones thus why we have SATA M.2 and SATA Express that use PCIe lanes now there will be no SATA 4 as everything will either go onto M.2, SATA Epress, SAS 12Gb/s or direct card to PCI express. It should be noted that the differnece from SATA 6Gb/s and M.2 is huge on paper and in benchmarks but when it really comes down to it unless you have some very storage intensive programs going you will not see any benefit once you get a SSD as the advatages of going from SATA 2 to SATA 3 were minimal and going from SATA 3 to M.2 will be even less noticeable and from M.2 to PCI express x8 will be even less noticable as the speed increases after SATA Express are not for the general consumer who is not bound by storage speeds.
When computers ship with a small M.2 drive then a massive SATA 3 or SATA Express drive that will be cool. Mainly because M.2 is much faster but in that much smaller and has alot less storage on the PCB than on a SATA 3 SSD does with some of them getting as cheap as $0.50 per GB even on the higher end of SSDs.

 

[josejones]

Well put, yumri.

I was just surprised that the two articles I posted above imply that SATA will become obsolete after 12/16 g/ps SSD's on PCIe become a standard. So, you're right, there will never be a SATA 4 as it has hit its limit.

Welcome to the fast-moving world of flash connectors
http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2014/11/13/flash_connectors/

The Interface of Choice for SSDs
http://www.cadalyst.com/hardware/workstations/interface-choice-ssds-21388

I am curious if motherboards for Intel's Skylake will have a next generation SATA Express at 20 g/ps instead of the current 10 g/ps?

Skylake: "DDR4 memory, PCI Express 4.0, Thunderbolt 3.0, and SATA Express"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_%28microarchitecture%29

Will PCI Express 4.0 even matter? PCIe 3.0 sure didn't seem to matter much at all. You are probably right, it won't really be noticeable, but would it if you had a 12 or 16 g/ps SSD in PCIe?

I may wait to see what Skylake platform has to offer and at what price but, if it's not worth all the money I may get a Z97 or even an H97 system.

 

[k1114]

Why do you think sata 4 hit it's limit? There is no sata 4 out yet and we don't know what this entails. With 3.2 adding pcie, you think 4 would too so it could keep up with adding bandwidth along with pcie. As already mentioned, the increase in bandwidth is irrelevant to most people. You just never hit max sequential in just about everything. Don't expect pcie 4 til cannonlake.

 

[yumri]

Why do you think sata 4 hit it's limit? There is no sata 4 out yet and we don't know what this entails. With 3.2 adding pcie, you think 4 would too so it could keep up with adding bandwidth along with pcie. As already mentioned, the increase in bandwidth is irrelevant to most people. You just never hit max sequential in just about everything. Don't expect pcie 4 til cannonlake.

It is mainly that the connector just does not have enough lines for data to travel along to justify using another version number instead of just counting revisions as yes SAS has a 12 GB/s versionbut that is because of how it is set up with connectors on both the top and the bottom if i remember right while SATA only has connectors on one side on the controller side and diffenert enough signalling that SAS and SATA are not interchangeable ... unless there is a special chip in place to allow for that.
The future of SATA is SATA M.2 not the SATA tranditional connector just becuase there is only so advanced of signalling till when the possiablity of crupption out weighs any possiable speed gains made and then that is when you have to either 1 go and use a higher voltage to have it go at a higher speed but breaking compatability with lower versions and/or just changeing the entire connector to get more connectors for more data paths which M.2 does do.

 

[josejones]

k1114, I never said SATA 4 hit its limit since SATA 4 does not exist and never will as SATA 3 has already hit its limit with standard hard drives and those connectors as mentioned by yumri and the AHCI interface. Today's SATA interface maxes out at 600 MB/second which limits SSD's. So, SATA 3 is already maxed out.

SSD's will go 12g/ps and 16g/ps but as far as I can tell never regular hard drives as they have already hit their limits at least with those connectors and the AHCI interface.

yumri is probably correct, the future of SATA is likely M.2 and PCIe with NVMe. Windows 10 needs to have NVMe drivers.

If you read the links you would see:

Skylake: "DDR4 memory, PCI Express 4.0, Thunderbolt 3.0, and SATA Express"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_%28microarchitecture%29

 

[josejones]

The limitations of M.2 and PCIe with NVMe appears to be 20g/ps for SSD's.

http://www.cadalyst.com/hardware/workstations/interface-choice-ssds-21388

 

[k1114]

Forget sata 3, it is obsolete with sata 3.2. Don't forget that this is sata e for your primary storage devices. M2 is just the smaller form factor to replace msata.

 

[k1114]

there will never be a SATA 4 as it has hit its limit.

What is this talking about?

 

[josejones]

k1114, read that quote in context as many times as it takes until it all sinks in. What part of this do you not understand?:

"I never said SATA 4 hit its limit since SATA 4 does not exist and never will as SATA 3 has already hit its limit with standard hard drives and those connectors as mentioned by yumri and the AHCI interface. Today's SATA interface maxes out at 600 MB/second which limits SSD's. So, SATA 3 is already maxed out.

SSD's will go 12g/ps and 16g/ps but as far as I can tell never regular hard drives as they have already hit their limits at least with those connectors and the AHCI interface.

yumri is probably correct, the future of SATA is likely M.2 and PCIe with NVMe...."

SATA 3.2 did little to increase performance for standard disc Hard Drives (HD). SATA 3.2 was more for M.2 and SSD's since, as already discussed, HD's are limited by the AHCI interface and the connecters that limit them to 600 MB/s making SATA disc HD's soon to be obsolete AFTER M.2 and PCIe along with a new NVMe interface and connectors becomes the new standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA#SATA_revision_3.2_.2816_Gbit.2Fs.2C_1969_MB.2Fs.29

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2013/08/13/sata-32/1

When M.2 and PCIe, along with the new NVMe interface and connectors becomes the new standard we will see PCIe SSD's at 20 to 40 g/ps:

Welcome to the fast-moving world of flash connectors
http://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2014/11/13/flash_connectors/

The Interface of Choice for SSDs
http://www.cadalyst.com/hardware/workstations/interface-choice-ssds-21388

"With a 4 x PCI Express 3.0/2.0 bandwidth, M.2 supports up to 32Gbps data-transfer speeds..."

ASUS X99-E WS LGA 2011-v3 Intel X99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132263&cm_re=ASUS_X99-E_WS_LGA_2011-v3_Intel_X99-_-13-132-263-_-Product