Serial loop Vs. Parallel loop

[toolmaker_03]

a detailed parts list, of the two water loops used in this test setup.
2 MCR320-QP 360mm radiators
http://www.swiftech.com/MCRx20-QP.aspx
2 EVGA GeForce GTX 580 FTW Hydro Copper 2
https://www.evga.com/articles/00592/
1 XSPC raystorm CPU block
http://www.xs-pc.com/waterblocks-cpu/raystorm-cpu-water...
1 swiftech MPC655 pump
http://www.swiftech.com/mcp655.aspx
6 corsair SP fans
http://www.corsair.com/en-us/air-series-sp120-high-perf...
6 bits power 3 way 90's
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/12084/ex-tub-744/Bits...
1 Y block
http://bitspowerwork.com/html/product/pro_show.php?prod...
1 250mm reservoir
http://bitspowerwork.com/html/product/pro_show.php?prod...
8 3/8ID 1/2OD compression fittings
http://bitspowerwork.com/html/product/pro_show.php?prod...
2 T's
http://www.xs-pc.com/hose-fittings/g14-t-fitting-black-...
5 male to male fittings of varying length
http://www.xs-pc.com/hose-fittings/g14-5mm-male-to-male...
4 female to female fittings of varying length
http://www.xs-pc.com/hose-fittings/g14-18mm-female-to-f...
2 koolance flow meters with display
http://koolance.com/ins-fm19-coolant-flow-meter
http://koolance.com/dcb-fm01-flow-meter-adapter-with-di...
1 loop filter
http://koolance.com/ins-fltr03-inline-coolant-filter
2 temp sensors
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10373/ex-tub-620/Bits...
1 alphacool bubble down
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/17333/ex-tub-1558/Alphacool_Bubble_Down_G14_Thread_Reservoir_Flow_Regulator_-_Deep_Black.html?tl=g30c97s169
1 bitspower aqua pipe
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/11863/ex-tub-713/Bitspower_G_14_Silver_Shining_Aqua-Pipe_I_BP-WTP-C17.html?tl=g30c97s169

This system is overclocked, on both the serial and parallel test setups.
CPU overclock @ 4Ghz
GPU1 overclock @ 850Mhz
GPU2 overclock @ 850Mhz
Memory overclock @ 1600Mhz
CPU stock @ 3.2Ghz
GPU1 stock @ 772Mhz
GPU2 stock @ 772Mhz
Memory stock @ 1333Mhz
this is the serial loop setup and what it looks like, and here are the hardware temps at idol, ambient temp of the room is at 28.6C
CPU 43C
GPU1 37C
GPU2 37C
the water temps at idol are
29C-30C
the hardware temps at load are
CPU 61C
GPU1 51C
GPU2 51C
the water temps at load are
37C-38C
the delta t of the system at load is 10C
http://imgur.com/Gi4wFZO,G1Mte0g,Pb8ot4j,k8LlLK5

this is the parallel loop setup and what it looks like, and here are the hardware temps at idol, ambient temp of the room is at 28.6C
CPU 43C
GPU1 35C
GPU2 35C
the water temps at idol are
29C-30C
the hardware temps at load are
CPU 57C
GPU1 46C
GPU2 46C
the water temps at load are
34C-35C
the delta t of the system at load is 7C
http://imgur.com/pBZY5ne,yIT8rwA,CgNlfyH

this is the difference between the hardware used on the serial loop, and the hardware that needed to be added to the parallel loop.

http://imgur.com/U3yYYJl

 

[rubix_1011]

Any time you add anything to a loop, you introduce restriction: inches of tubing, fittings, radiators, blocks, etc. You aren't decreasing restriction by adding these, so I don't know how you can say this is possible. Any time water turbulence within the tubing diameter flows back into itself, it causes turbulence, which causes restriction. This means for each inch of tubing, you cause this or each time tubing intersects with a fitting, the lip of the fitting causes turbulence.

This is exactly what I am trying to say. Any time you add something to a loop, you introduce restriction.

See here: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/274855-29-experimental-radiator-build/page-20#16581748

so not using any fittings at all can seriously affect how well the system could preform.

Are you saying that: A) using fittings increases flow rate and lowers restriction or, B) that the absence of fittings increases your flow rate and lowers restriction?

If:

A) This has been proven many, many times to be false by many people far more knowledgeable than you or I. Anything in a loop adds restriction, including plain tubing, adds restriction. Even straight fittings add restriction.

B) This is what I've been saying all along and coincides with the findings behind A.


Have you benchmarked your own flow meters against a stopwatch and a gallon or liter container to validate they are calibrated correctly? Or have they been benchmarked against a known flow meter?

 

[toolmaker_03]

I am saying that the transfer from metal to tubing causes restriction, and the more that one can limit this transfer from tubing to metal the higher the flow rate of the system will be.

in fact, if I configured a serial loop of my hardware, as CPU to RAD to GPU to RAD to GPU to res./pump and back to the CPU, with no fittings, the total flow rate of the system drops again, down to .5LPM-.8LPM.

it has nothing to do with the fittings themselves or how many there are.

it has more to do with how many times I had to make the transfer between the metal of the system to the tubing in the system.

I would like to, at some point, build a loop out of soft copper tubing to see if that lowers the amount of restriction caused in this way.

 

[toolmaker_03]

here is an example of what I am talking about
https://imageshack.com/i/nq12xcj
https://imageshack.com/i/0fleehj
https://imageshack.com/i/0v8ocbj
this loop has over 130 different fittings on it and it runs at a flow rate of 6.5LPM
http://imgur.com/pBZY5ne,yIT8rwA,CgNlfyH#1
this loop has 26 fittings and runs at the flow rate of 6.5LPM, its not the soft 90 degree fittings that have caused loop restriction, but how many times I had to convert from metal in the loop to the tubing in the loop, the more often that I had to make that change the lower the flow rate of the loop was.

 

[rubix_1011]

It doesn't necessarily have to do with tubing/metal/plastic transitions as it does that the transitions exist and the differences the flow experiences during these transitions.

You are seeing exactly what I've been telling you all along - restriction and reduction in flow has a direct impact on your loop delta.

 

[4Ryan6]

well, I do have several issues with what you have stated here.
first off, it is not over complicating the issue,

Supplying this type of information is fine, if someone is looking for it, but forcing it down some new to water coolers throat like it is required reading is NOT!

Don't insult me with your, "I'm sorry you cannot understand comment," I understand a lot more than you think I do!

You do not need to throw this information in a newbies face that is barely grasping what he or she is initially needing to set up their water cooling!

That sir is what I've been trying to tell you, and everything else is irrelevant whether you have an issue with it or not!

For the Record: I arrived at this thread from a link you put in a newbies post!

 

[toolmaker_03]

this person that you are talking about, where they considering building a SLI/Crossfire setup? if so, then it is my opinion, that you should stop assuming that other people are so ignorant, that they cant possible understand what they are being shown.
why don't you go back to that "newbies" thread as you call them, and post your comment about them, the same one you did here, and see how much they appreciate your fellings about them.
by the way if you don't, its ok I will post it for you.

 

[4Ryan6]

this person that you are talking about, where they considering building a SLI/Crossfire setup? if so, then it my opinion, that you should stop assuming that other people are so ignorant, that they cant possible understand what they are being shown.
why don't you go back to that "newbies" thread as you call them, and post your comment about them, the same one you did here, and see how much they appreciate your fellings about them.
by the way if you don't, its ok I will post it for you.

by the way if you don't, its ok I will post it for you.

Be careful how you proceed!

 

[toolmaker_03]

that is fine with me, I will start posting your opinions about newbies, for all of them to read for them selves, so that they understand how you feel about them.

 

[4Ryan6]

that is fine with me, I will start posting your opinions about newbies, for all of them to read for them selves, so that they understand how you feel about them.

You are displaying some extremely irrational behavior, I urge you to read what you've written, before you actually post it.

 

[toolmaker_03]

if you are ashamed of what you have stated about others, then remove it.

 

[4Ryan6]

if you are ashamed of what you have stated about others, then remove it.

The only thing I am ashamed of, is the way you are acting.

 

[toolmaker_03]

then there is no problem here, have a good day sir.

 

[rubix_1011]

4ryan6 does have a point - you ALWAYS link to your pages, especially with new people. I'll be honest, it sometimes confuses me with the different directions you go in - first it was that 2.2LPM was good, and now it's 'let's go as fast as we can'. There are very mixed messages in your posts.

If you are going to use your testing and findings as a solution to a newcomer to watercooling, you need to confirm all your testing and write up your scientific testing methods so they are easy to follow by anyone rather than linking to your 'current' findings. Simply posting the same Imageshack URLs over and over each week on every new thread does not help someone that doesn't follow what you are trying to do.

Help them understand, help them learn. Don't assume that everyone just 'gets' what you post in all your Imageshack URLs. Have a basis for knowledge transfer.

 

[toolmaker_03]

ok so this is my theory on how I lowered the delta t of my system with each new configuration of my water loop.
fist thing is that I did need to have enough radiator space to remove most of the heat being generated, by the components on the water loop.
than it is my opinion that the delta t of my water loop could be directly related to the flow rate through the radiators on my system.

this is how I came to that opinion.
on my serial loop setup with one pump, and a lower flow rate through the radiators of 1.2LPM it will have a delta t of 13C
on my serial loop test setup with one pump, the total flow rate through the radiators was 2.4LPM and I had a delta t of 10C
on my parallel loop test setup with one pump, the total flow rate was 6.8LPM so half that is 3.4LPM and that is the flow rate through one of the radiators on that loop and I had a delta t of 7C
on my parallel loop final build with two pumps, the total flow rate was 9.6LPM so half that is 4.8LPM and that is the flow rate through one of the radiators on that loop and I had a delta t of 4C
well that is my theory anyway, it seems to work.

so for some practical application of this theory it seems that for about every 1LPM increase of flow rate through the radiators, the delta t of the loop goes down by 3C.
I would like to test this theory further by seeing if a flow rate of 5.8LPM through one of the radiators will continue to lower the delta t of my loop by 3C if so, it would bring the total delta t of my water loop down to 1C :lol: I don't think that is going to happen, but I would still like to see what does happen to the delta t of my system at the 5.8LPM flow rate through one of the radiators

I am trying to build a system with 4 GPU,s and a CPU being cooled.

 

[toolmaker_03]

cost of the serial loop test setup
$1003
cost of the parallel loop test setup
$1168
difference in cost of the parts to convert the loop from serial to parallel
$165
IMO it is worth the extra $165 to lower my load temps.

 

[4Ryan6]

This quote below is taken from the Loop Order Section in the link below the quote, I'm curious as to your take on his conclusions?

Parallel, however, offers more than one path for the water to flow, so that you, theoretically, have less flow, and, ideally, less resistance, but most of all, you are attempting to add to the cooling potential through the combination of the two. In terms of performance in the real world, the temperature difference between the two, though, parallel is actually a bit warmer, at the extreme ned, 2 to 3C hotter, which I believe is because, despite common belief, I think it adds more resistance, because, while the water is now able to take the path of least resistance, you are still colliding the water with itself, which, in the confines of the blocks, usually GPU blocks, would add to the resistance. Still, I am a fan of the look of parallel, compared to serial, but the time it takes to bleed seems to be substantially higher with parallel blocks, once again, especially GPUs and radiators.

https://teksyndicate.com/comment/1474339

*********************************************

How about multi pump setups, his conclusion quoted below.

Conclusion

Parallel pump setups are very clearly a poor choice for water cooling. Not only is the performance benefit very small and only some benefit for very low restriction loops, it also barely manages to provide enough pumping power for redundancy. Series setups give you double the head pressure of a single pump and that increased head pressure is tuned ideally for water cooling’s high restriction nature. I will caution that running two pumps in series and the resulting increased flow rate does work your pumps harder, so you should consider additional cooling particularly with DDC pumps. I would also advise that dual pumps is not something that will normally net large measurable temperature gains, it’s generally reserved for those that are in search of that last degree in performance…or for those with extremely large, complex, and restrictive loops.

Taken from the link below.


http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...i-Pump-Setups-Parallel-vs-Series-Test-Results

 

[toolmaker_03]

think you for further proving my point that the hybrid parallel/serial loop configuration really does not work or provide any type of beneficial improvements.
my full parallel loop on the other hand does.
and I used a real world test of my hardware to prove it.
good luck finding someone who actually did what I have done.
I don't know what your trying to say though?
the great thing about the truth, is that it is repeatable, and anyone who would like to try my setup out, will get similar, if not the exact same results I did.

Edit** and I registered and posted on that web site and that thread for both of them, so that they can see what I have done, and give there input on my configuration.

do you have any other sites that I should register with, and post my results on?

 

[toolmaker_03]

https://forum.teksyndicate.com/t/serial-vs-parallel/87171
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?270201-Multi-Pump-Setups-Parallel-vs-Series-Test-Results/page2
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?292458-serial-vs-parallel&p=5260874#post5260874
http://www.overclock.net/t/1573189/serial-vs-parallel

well there they are and I am still waiting for replies

 

[4Ryan6]

https://forum.teksyndicate.com/t/serial-vs-parallel/87171
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?270201-Multi-Pump-Setups-Parallel-vs-Series-Test-Results/page2
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?292458-serial-vs-parallel&p=5260874#post5260874

well there they are and I am still waiting for replies

ROFL :lol:

I guess you are waiting for replies seeing as how the pump thread was posted back in April 26 2011 with a last active post May 2nd 2011 which makes the thread there over 4years old.

The other thread was posted over 2 years ago! :lol:

And you're popping in there like you have news for the world! :lol:

Keep in mind at those other websites toolmaker_03 you're not in Kansas anymore Toto.

 

[4Ryan6]

Edit** and I registered and posted on that web site and that thread for both of them, so that they can see what I have done, and give there input on my configuration.

do you have any other sites that I should register with, and post my results on?

Definitely post at overclock.net

 

[rubix_1011]

Anytime you parallel a split (even to your radiators) you halve your flow rate. Test your flowrate on one of your parallel splits, not in the serial section, you'll see what I'm saying.

I tested this myself on my testing bench last night. So, your loop that is running at the theoretical 6 LPM(?) is still halving that by 1 each time you parallel through your radiators. You don't get the same flow rate in serial as you do in parallel, but this has already been proven many times before.

By the way, you never sent me that hardware to test, although you said it had been sent.

 

[toolmaker_03]

you said you did not want it so I picked it up that Monday before it shipped

ok so this is my theory on how I lowered the delta t of my system with each new configuration of my water loop.
fist thing is that I did need to have enough radiator space to remove most of the heat being generated, by the components on the water loop.
than it is my opinion that the delta t of my water loop could be directly related to the flow rate through the radiators on my system.

this is how I came to that opinion.
on my serial loop setup with one pump, and a lower flow rate through the radiators of 1.2LPM it will have a delta t of 13C
on my serial loop test setup with one pump, the total flow rate through the radiators was 2.4LPM and I had a delta t of 10C
on my parallel loop test setup with one pump, the total flow rate was 6.8LPM so half that is 3.4LPM and that is the flow rate through one of the radiators on that loop and I had a delta t of 7C
on my parallel loop final build with two pumps, the total flow rate was 9.6LPM so half that is 4.8LPM and that is the flow rate through one of the radiators on that loop and I had a delta t of 4C
well that is my theory anyway, it seems to work.

so for some practical application of this theory it seems that for about every 1LPM increase of flow rate through the radiators, the delta t of the loop goes down by 3C.
I would like to test this theory further by seeing if a flow rate of 5.8LPM through one of the radiators will continue to lower the delta t of my loop by 3C if so, it would bring the total delta t of my water loop down to 1C :lol: I don't think that is going to happen, but I would still like to see what does happen to the delta t of my system at the 5.8LPM flow rate through one of the radiators.

I believe that I have clearly stated this fact several times, that the flow rate is half the total through each radiator.

 

[rubix_1011]

How are you taking temperature readings of the ambient air and the water? How are you taking flow readings?

 

[toolmaker_03]

well there is a temp sensor hanging on the reservoir that is telling me the ambient air temp I also have a house temp sensor for my house coolers that reads the same temp.
I have temp sensors made by bitspower in the water loop itself.
I have a total of three flow meters made by koolance, all three give me the same readings, regardless of what display I hook them to, so if you have a grievance about the accuracy of these meters take it up koolance.

 

[rubix_1011]

That's great, but have you validated by another means to benchmark the flow meters? Just because they are all made by Koolance and read the same, they all could be wrong in the same way. The first thing I did when I got my flow meter was to test accuracy at 0.5 GPM, 1.0 GPM and 1.5 GPM. It is exactly correct.

Have you validated these are correct?