Shouldn't you be outraged by bioshock?

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i am outraged by this, not the online registration, i dont feel that is a big deal, but the secure drm thing and limited installs. I downloaded the demo liked it a lot and decided to buy the game, i learned about the drm before i did this however, now i will not buy the game. even the demo installs the drm although i dont think it is active, how you cannot remove the reg keys, without specific software is very snide, i system restored back to get rid of the thing ( i think it worked). i will probably borrow it off a mate and download a crack/cracked version if one becomes available ( and it almost certainly will) sooner or later. why do software companies do this, you really cant effectively stop people playing non online games
without an official copy. i will also be suspicious of future products from the companys involved.
in a way, how many people buy as opposed to "steal" games depends on the goodwill and support of the consumer rater than any attempts to enforce this by the game companies. the makers of bioshock (great game though it is) have sure pissed me off and lost a certain sale.
 
it wasn't certain sale then was it :lol: just kidding, my brother bought the game before checking for this DRM and so I ended up borrwing it anyway and I'll just reinstall windows at some point
 
Well pirates cracked today bioshock finally... So I went out and bought my copy on a nearby store on a $65 Two-game special, so I got Bioshock and GRAW. Now that I supported the devs, Im downloading my crap free cracked version of bioshock 😛

I wonder if I can ebay a brand new bioshock copy in 10 years time and get a nice hefty sum.... kinda like FF7
 
It's not absurd, it's pretty much correct. When you buy a game, you don't "own" "the game". You own a license to allow you to use it, under certain circumstances. You should read a license agreement - you'd be surprised at how restrictive they are.
 
Why? They are selling something. They're selling a license, a case and an manual. Just not the software itself.

And you agree to it when you click "next" on the License Agreement bit on install, so ignorance is no excuse.
 
just to clear up
Im talking about the boxed game in a shop not a down load of a game.
man imagine this system on everything, eg:
i buy a remote for a tv but i can only change the channel 2 times a day thats just not fair, its stupid.

 
That's not comparing like with like.

The fact that you own a license rather than the software is not the same as the license being unfairly restrictive (your TV remote analogy).

I have no problem with intellectual property law protecting developers - in fact, it's a good thing as it encourages investments. For that reason, I accept that when I buy a game, I'm not buying the software, only the right to use it. In most cases, the difference is purely a technical legal one, and doesn't affect how you use the product.

I do, however, have a problem with publishers using IP protection as an excuse to engage in shoddy trading practises - such as hidden rootkit systems that aren't referred to in the License Agreement.
 
Maybe this was already covered here or somewhere else, but if I buy it via Steam, will that also include the SecuROM stuf? I'm assuming not as Steam should be handling all the stuf with multiple installs etc (as it does with other games I've bought through Steam) but anyone here in the know?
 

According to this http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/39309975/m/672004296831 the Steam version is 'infected' as well, but then it just be FUD.
 
The steam model is such, that you can only have a Steam account active on one PC, when you log into steam on another machine, your steam logon will not be accepted. However you can start up steam games offline, so I guess that there would still be use for protection if you want to obstruct people that (try to) share their steam account (which would be violating the TOS of Steam).
 
There's so many different ways to comment about this so i'll just mention what I consider the 4 most important.

1. Piracy isn't 'so much worse' than it was 10 years ago. It still happened, but the RIAA/MPAA and the like have brought this into the daylight to try to show the 'pirates' how bad they are. They might still make gobs of money, but now it's a bigger issue in their opinion. 15 years ago the industry was alot smaller. Imagine 10% of the 100 million PC(just pulling out hypothetical numbers for simplicy) bought this year vice the 10 million bought 10 years ago. 10% of 100 million is alot more money lost, but if they're still selling software for 90% of the total computer sales, they're making ALOT more money.

2. I hadn't heard of this game(clearly I'm not a hardcore gamer) until I heard about the DRM fiasco. If they spent 3 years in development and now they want to protect it guess what? Cry me a damn river! I'm reading more and more that Nintendo is doing so well at games because they are for casual gamers. Nintendo smartened up and realized people don't need l33t graphics and 500 hours of playtime on a game to put out a product that will sell. They can market a game with 2 months of development time for $35 and sell 3x as many as another game they spent a year in development and sold alot less for $70. The bottom line they have realized that the casual gamers will control the gaming market. I'm not going to argue if this is good or bad, just that it is starting to happen. One article I read about the new Final Fantasy game coming out is saying that this could potentially be the last Final Fantasy game that is anything like the 'final fantasy' style games because they don't expect to make as much money on it as they used to. They spend a year or more in development for a game that will sell for $70 and a smaller and smaller population will spend the money on it. They aren't sure if they make another one if they'd even break even!

3. This should have been CLEARLY labeled ALL over the box that these requirements existed. I'd be pissed off as hell if I found out that I just spent money on a game that's gonna have secret hidden 'features' in their game. 5 years from now the company could go bust(or be bought out) and guess what? No more Bioshock for you. There's no activation servers in existence. Your just screwed. I want the knowledge of knowing I can play my game whenever I want wherever I want. Not when i'm connected to the internet and while the company is still around.

4. Hacks. IMO this is going to get quite a few people on the 'i want a hacked copy so I can do what I want whenever I want' wagon. Unfortunately I think too many people are gonna realize just how easy it is to get a hack and use it and play their game with no crazy limitations. If the activation servers were down for a week, I bet money LOTS of people would turn to this very quickly, and they'd keep the hack on a CD for next time too thereby defeating the entire purpose of Bioshock's low grade DRM. Just look at what MS WGA did last week? It was big news when that happened. I'm not saying that we should all pirate everything cause it's cheaper that way, but they need to stop and think about who they are gonna screw over in the end.

Anyone remember the game Subspace from the 90s? It was a simple MMG game, came out at christmas sold a bunch of copies and about 6 months later the game servers were shut down. This was before the invention of monthly fees. You paid for the game and it was yours, but it was also online. Suddenly the servers were gone and VERY VERY few people knew where to find the new servers that had creeped up to try to bring the game back.

Fortunately for me, I don't really care if Bioshock flops or wins every award they can this year. What DOES concern me is whether people buy it, because if people still buy it and someone can say 'this DRM model works' I can expect it on almost every game from now on. This is the beginning of the DRM model for games.

We just don't realize that we're giving anything up...yet. When will we realize it? When it's too damn late to try to object to it.
 
The statement that they need to put this crap on the cd and they need to limit your amount of use with online activation is silly.The game is already available for download if you know where to look.
I pay for the games I play but if this crap continues I'm sorry I'll start downloading them instead because the protection will not be there. Then if I feel like it I'll pay for it.
 
This entire discussion makes me sick. People defending how messed up the games industry has gotten just because they lose some tiny percentage of their revenue to some undefinable piracy 'epidemic'.

If piracy was completely stopped tomorrow, if no one could borrow or lend games in any fashion, does anyone actually think sales would increase by more than a small fraction for any company? NO! why not? Because people who pirate are not going to go out and spend money on stuff they don't need unless its worth actually buying.

I think its very similar to the mp3 thing. It's completely legal in Canada to download music because every ipod has a tax put on it at the point of sale, but do you see all the HMV's and Virgins going out of business in Canada? HELL NO, because those who buy music and movies, still buy them. Those who do not buy them, wouldn't be buying them if they were denied mp3s, they simply wouldn't listen to music bought from a store.

I've always considered the 'ownership' of digital content to be a sketchy subject and this discussion is proving that people are just letting this crap wash over them like so much raw sewage and lapping it up like a kitten to cream.
 



Your statement is very correct. Most of the people that pirate games will not buy them even if it was impossible to pirate them anyway so the company's really aren't losing money from the pirates, they just aren't gaining any. Also, if every game that came out was as great as Bioshock, a lot more people would be buying games because there a lot of developers putting out quick games looking for a quick buck and the cover looks great and you read the back and it sounds fun. So you pay your 70$ bring the game home to find that you just wasted your hard earned cash.

As for the Bioshock fiasco, I think if they tested the DRM system for bugs more and had backup servers in place, it could have worked. I'm sure that a lot of people who pirate games who could not download Bioshock in the first week actually went and bought the game but for the few sales they got, they inconvenienced there "loyal" customers to a great extent.

BTW, last Sunday, someone cracked the protection. So all that hassle for 2 weeks of protection?
 
Time for some contra opinion in this debate. I've seen a lot people stating that they are such loyal customers and that they buy all their games and that they feel screwed by DRM. My take on this: if we were all loyal paying customers this whole discussion would not be happening in the first place. The point a lot of you are making is that the problem is blown out of proportions by the industry. What would they have to gain by that?

The whole issue is one of price levels driven by supply and demand. With a digital product, once the product has been developed, the supply is basically endless. There cannot be a shortage as producing another copy is hideously cheap. This is the main reason why the industry wants to shift to a pay per use model, instead of ownership (to cover their development costs and make a nice profit). The position the industry takes is that the intellectual property cannot be owned by the customers, they can only consume it. Joe average Consumer still thinks that he has bought the full package (even if the licensing agreement states otherwise) and feels morally justified to do as he pleases with it. Of course I'm not talking to you here, as you all know what licensing agreements are and as loyal customers feel bound by those.

I think it is up to the industry to come up with a business model that feels right to the customer as well as to the industry and where a balance can be restored between supply and demand. Having said that, I think it is up to the consumer to realize that if you're not paying for something like a game or music (whatever business model is used by the provider) that you are stealing. Reproducing something with content value (whatever the author, programmer, movie director, script writer, actor, etc put in as effort) without reimbursing them in some way (and with that I mean pay them what they ask for it, not what you think it is worth) and selling it or giving it away should be recognized as stealing, that is a moral issue that should be clear, just as it is clear to almost all of us that you don't kill/murder someone. I think on both fronts (industry and consumer) we still have ways to go.

I feel ok with having to pay each time I want to see a certain movie (regardless of where I watch it). Obviously I would like to be able to get discounts when I want to see it more often, or even a "watch for life" deal if the price is right. What I would not want to pay for is once I have my "watch for life" license, pay for it again when it is reproduced on the latest and greatest new format (from VHS to DVD, from DVD to BlueRay, and whatever comes next). It all boils down to making sure that the consumer knows what he is buying at the time of purchase.

With the above in mind, hopefully my comments on one of the previous posts makes sense.



I do not think the scale of piracy should be the crux of the discussion. If the industry thinks they are missing out on a large part of it, they are entitled to think of ways on how to catch that revenue. I fully agree with any of you here that they should not do that at the costs of the customers that already pay. But again, please realize what you pay for: the gaming experience, not to do with the content as you please. And this is what the industry should provide, the gaming experience. The fact that pirates won't pay any way is a non argument, they do not have the moral right on experiencing the content then. How is normal supply and demand mechanisms going to work when people think they have the "moral right" to experience it for free? It just does not fly and it spoils it all for Joe average Consumer who is ok with paying for it. I see noone applauding those that sneak into movie theaters to see movies for free. Sure it happens, but there is no cult for it like there seems to be for pirating content. Whether something is worth buying can only be determined with normal supply and demand mechanisms in place.


The fact that companies don't go out of business make it feel (morally) right to you that you can download stuf for free of which the content should be reimbursed some way to those that made the product?

The fact that media and content carriers are taxed to make up for loss of revenues is just part of another business model, which is fine in principle but at the moment those taxes are not helping the supply and demand chain. I would be perfectly OK with any form of taxing mechanism as long as it takes into account that when you do not consume, you should not have to pay for it, and when the revenues of those taxes are distributed to the content creators, that very popular content is rewarded and content that nobody is interested in is not reimbursed. If you do not have that in place, supply and demand mechanisms still don't operate as they should.



There is nothing sketchy about it, as long as everybody understands what it is they own.

All of the above is obfuscated by those that are/were benefitting from old(er) business models that are now becoming obsolete. That is something that we can entirely blame on the industry. The industry must look for opportunities, not try to save their old business models as if those are holy. However, consumers should be able to understand these drivers because they are basic human responses and we all have them. Doesn't make them right but they are there and we have to deal with them, all of us.
 
I used to get annoyed by DRM etc. Then I just realised. You don't like it. Don't buy it. It's their product, they can do what the **** they want with it.

It's really as easy as that.

 


fixed :)
 
Good post Mac, totally agree.

I've tried explaining license agreements to some posters on these forums and people just don't seem to understand that when you "buy" a game, you're not buying the software, only a license to use it.

I think Wolfy has hit the nail on the head. Although I would include one caveat - that publishers should be honest and up-front about what restrictions they impose on their product. In the case of Bioshock, for example, my understanding is that the rootkit isn't mentioned either on the box or in the license agreement, which is pretty underhand. However, if the purchaser knows exactly what they are buying, they can't whinge and moan if they don't like it. To use the supply and demand concepts of Mac's post; a perfect market only exists where there is perfect information.
 


A market with functioning supply and demand mechanisms and a functioning competitor environment is very capable of dealing with dishonest providers. Their products will not be in demand for long. There is a fine line between not disclosing all information or lying but when you uninstall a product, all traces of it (or subcomponents) should be gone (unless those subcomponents are still in use by other products on your system). Abusing the lack of knowlegde of your customers should be punished (and it is). Only too bad the punishment is mostly going to 2k instead of Sony.
 
could be why metroid is outselling bioshock. could be why pc games in general are going the way of the dodo. of course metroid could just be better but thats another issue
 
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