So Nvidia lied about the GTX 970 for months

[junkeymonkey]

ya , i hear ya .. all that is why i still got my money in my pocket and my old card running in this rig , and all's still good with that ... i wanted one myself but i had it in the cart back in November and something kept telling me don't do it and wait and see .. good thing i guess

 

[commandosupremo]

I don't really consider it a design flaw. Looking at how the card was cut down from a 980 it doesn't look like there would be any other way to cut a 980 down to a unified memory pool unless they went to 3GB with a 192 bit bus like we might see with the rumored GTX 960Ti. But they shouldn't have covered up the fact that it's not a unified 4GB memory pool, as any reasonable person might expect from the specs. The flaw is entirely in Nvidia not being truthful with the hardware specs with reviewers. They lied and the review sites ran with their recommendations of a 970 as being a barely cut down 980. And now that we know the true specs of the card it still looks to not have been cut down too much from the full GM204 chip on the 980. But it has been cut down a lot more than we were lead to expect by the specs Nvidia gave sites like Tom's Hardware, Anandtech, Hexus, and so on. This card would have still sold like crazy advertised as a 3.5GB card at $330, but being lied to by Nvidia puts a bad taste in my mouth even though it's still a lot of horsepower to get for $330 (well, mine was $340 since I wanted a card with a factory overclock).

Yeah I think that the 960Ti is going to be similar to the 660Ti in that regard. I upgraded from a 660Ti to a 960Ti. Say what you will about the 660Ti's architecture with it's weird memory config and bus width, but you stick a hefty overclock on that memory and it was a great card.

 

[jayvis]

I agree but its a really matter
I have gtx 970 and its great for 1080p
And still great in benchmarks

 

[junkeymonkey]

i don't know anymore it seems all this stuff is getting to be a buyer beware item .. and in the end its all cheap china junk ,, just a sad fact no matter what it is

 

[HomerThompson]

@sinty
seems it should display at some kind of default and display to where you can set things up as needed ????

@iamlegend

I dont see it. the cards got 4gb of memory but how it gets utilized with the 970 is not the same as the 980 another point of why if you wanted a full fledged Maxwell card you should of went with the 980 and why theres a 200 buck price difference between them -- like I said you got what you paid for ..

and if you can see through the hype well that's too bad .. no one seems to understand this 970 is a salvage / hand me down card from parts that did not cut it for a 980 and old gtx 700 cards and so you got the lesser card .. but then maybe NVidia will resolve it out of the goodness of there harts ??

The 980 isn't really a full fledged Maxwell either. GM200 will be the full fledged Maxwell.

 

[junkeymonkey]

''I agree but its a really matter
I have gtx 970 and its great for 1080p
And still great in benchmarks ''


well as i said on one thread about that is if this issue was with all 970 cards and that means the ones you see tested at review sites and they all got the good scores and all then really whats the prob.???

all the cards should do as well regardless. right ??

look at the 960 with the 128 bus .. all say that not good but NVidia has a way to enhance that to where it preforms as well as a 256 .. and benches out better then the 760 and 280??

Don't be quick to write off the 128-bit memory bus width just yet as NVIDIA is backing it with a new lossless texture compression technology that reduces memory bandwidth usage, effectively making it a wider memory bus than it physically is.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_960_Gaming/2...

 

[junkeymonkey]

The 980 isn't really a full fledged Maxwell either. GM200 will be the full fledged Maxwell.

i guess i should of stated as of buying today -- sorry

 

[commandosupremo]

But it doesn't matter if you were buying it today or in a decade, the 980 isn't the full Maxwell architecture. Also, when hasn't this stuff not been buyer beware, we had Pentium's that had inaccurate FPUs, defective microcode, etc. and if you don't want it made overseas, you better be ready to pay the increased price. Honestly I couldn't care less where it's made, I just want it to do as advertised.

As to your response to jayvis' point, I agree completely. If you are at 1080p it doesn't make a difference performance wise with current titles at even the most demanding settings. There is a reason that this issue went unnoticed for a while. Yes, a smaller bus may not mean lower performance, no one was implying that. But if I had to guess that's how the 960Ti will be configured.

Man, the yor speling is wroong posts are always the best.

 

[palladin9479]

i don't know anymore it seems all this stuff is getting to be a buyer beware item .. and in the end its all cheap china junk ,, just a sad fact no matter what it is

... Huh

The chips inside the 980 and 970 come off the same assembly line. The ones that pass all QA tests are branded for 980s, the ones that have up to three failed SMs and / or one failed ROP are branded 970's. The binning process is a very well known process that's been used for decades in nearly every modern processor. This is what enables manufacturers to sell their products at reduced prices. Or in other words, if binning didn't happen then there wouldn't be a 970 for people to complain about.

In all cases the 970 today performs exactly like it did on release day. This isn't a bug, it's the result of Maxwells ability to selectively disable parts of a memory unit vs having to disable the entire thing. Inside the 970 you have eight 32-bit GDDR5 memory channels but only seven links to the memory crossbar controller due to one ROP unit and it's associated cache being disabled. This forces one DRAM chip to be slaved to another units ROP / cache mechanism. To provide the best performance nVidia decided to have the memory interleaved across all seven fully memory units while putting the eighth partially functional unit at the very end in it's own non-interleaved segment. The two alternatives would be to either fully disable the unit and thus have a 224-bit 3.5GB card, or to interleave across all eight channels as a single region which would uniformly reduce performance for everything. Both are lower performing options then what we have now as that last 512MB of local graphics memory is still faster then accessing from system memory.

So while people can rightly feel angry at the misinformation or possible deceit (I'm gonna wait a good long time before making any judgements), nVidia's engineering decisions were accurate and correct. The produced the best performing solution to the problem of a common production defect.

 

[junkeymonkey]

what ever you say .. its still cheap china -- and all that don't seem to be working out too well on this go round but I agree and I said that about the card issue being all 970 cards then all should hold true as far as all the review tests if you read above some

''''I agree but its a really matter
I have gtx 970 and its great for 1080p
And still great in benchmarks ''
well as i said on one thread about that is if this issue was with all 970 cards and that means the ones you see tested at review sites and they all got the good scores and all then really whats the prob.???

all the cards should do as well regardless. right ??

look at the 960 with the 128 bus .. all say that not good but NVidia has a way to enhance that to where it preforms as well as a 256 .. and benches out better then the 760 and 280??

Don't be quick to write off the 128-bit memory bus width just yet as NVIDIA is backing it with a new lossless texture compression technology that reduces memory bandwidth usage, effectively making it a wider memory bus than it physically is.
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_960_Gaming/2...

as I said you got what you paid for .. and the only thing I see is the real issue of a card with coil whine ... anyway I got my cash in my pocket and not in that card

I guess they expect more then what they got some how ???

 

[commandosupremo]

"Whatever you say" - that's how computer parts are made, in the US, in China, in Europe, just about everywhere. I fail to see how being in China changes the fundamental problems with making chips using silicon wafers, if you think that this is a problem because it was made in China, you obviously must not understand how chips are produced. Palladin is 100% correct, those were the available options and I think, and evidently so did the engineers, that this was the best blend of speed and capacity.

If the only issue you see is the coil whine then all your previous posts make no sense. I do have to chalk alot of the coil whine though up to the fans being so dang low. Mine only come on when I'm doing something intense, I wonder how many other cards have coil whine thats covered up by the fan noise.

Spend your money where you wish, but you shouldn't really post misinformation like that and insulting everyone who didn't make the same decision you did. "I guess they expect more then what they got some how ???" <- wut?

Like Palladin, I'm not sure how the confusion got out there. I really don't think it would be intentional as I can imagine the engineers trying to explain the architecture to some marketing people and saying, it's basically a 980 with [insert technical jargon here] disabled and that not making sense to them.

 

[AnonymousONIagent]

"Whatever you say" - that's how computer parts are made, in the US, in China, in Europe, just about everywhere. I fail to see how being in China changes the fundamental problems with making chips using silicon wafers, if you think that this is a problem because it was made in China, you obviously must not understand how chips are produced. Palladin is 100% correct, those were the available options and I think, and evidently so did the engineers, that this was the best blend of speed and capacity.

If the only issue you see is the coil whine then all your previous posts make no sense. I do have to chalk alot of the coil whine though up to the fans being so dang low. Mine only come on when I'm doing something intense, I wonder how many other cards have coil whine thats covered up by the fan noise.

Spend your money where you wish, but you shouldn't really post misinformation like that and insulting everyone who didn't make the same decision you did. "I guess they expect more then what they got some how ???" <- wut?

Like Palladin, I'm not sure how the confusion got out there. I really don't think it would be intentional as I can imagine the engineers trying to explain the architecture to some marketing people and saying, it's basically a 980 with [insert technical jargon here] disabled and that not making sense to them.

He didn't say he lives in China. "Cheap china" is another term for a low-end, low-quality item. Which the 970 isn't by any means. That would basically imply that if something isn't the absolute best product you can buy or roughly equivalent to it, it sucks, which is ludicrous and completely untrue, even if Nvidia did lie.

 

[junkeymonkey]

and that's why there crying over it , right ??

don't remember bitching over a top quality I got my moneys worth item ??

funny why is that --

 

[commandosupremo]

"Whatever you say" - that's how computer parts are made, in the US, in China, in Europe, just about everywhere. I fail to see how being in China changes the fundamental problems with making chips using silicon wafers, if you think that this is a problem because it was made in China, you obviously must not understand how chips are produced. Palladin is 100% correct, those were the available options and I think, and evidently so did the engineers, that this was the best blend of speed and capacity.

If the only issue you see is the coil whine then all your previous posts make no sense. I do have to chalk alot of the coil whine though up to the fans being so dang low. Mine only come on when I'm doing something intense, I wonder how many other cards have coil whine thats covered up by the fan noise.

Spend your money where you wish, but you shouldn't really post misinformation like that and insulting everyone who didn't make the same decision you did. "I guess they expect more then what they got some how ???" <- wut?

Like Palladin, I'm not sure how the confusion got out there. I really don't think it would be intentional as I can imagine the engineers trying to explain the architecture to some marketing people and saying, it's basically a 980 with [insert technical jargon here] disabled and that not making sense to them.

He didn't say he lives in China. "Cheap china" is another term for a low-end, low-quality item. Which the 970 isn't by any means. To say it is is basically saying that if it isn't the absolute best product you can buy, it sucks, which is ludicrous and completely untrue, even if Nvidia did lie.

Ummm, I didn't say he lived in China. I was just pointing out that chip binning is common in the fab world. Being made in china doesn't imply that the production methods are any different.

No one is crying btw.

 

[AnonymousONIagent]

(snip)

Ummm, I didn't say he lived in China. I was just pointing out that chip binning is common in the fab world. Being made in china doesn't imply that the production methods are any different.

No one is crying btw.

That's still not what it refers to. By "china" it means glassware. Fancy dishes and such.

 

[palladin9479]

If the only issue you see is the coil whine then all your previous posts make no sense. I do have to chalk alot of the coil whine though up to the fans being so dang low. Mine only come on when I'm doing something intense, I wonder how many other cards have coil whine thats covered up by the fan noise.

This is not an nVidia issue but a board manufacturer issue. NVidia just produces the GPU's for the cards, to assist manufacturers they also produce a reference design. Manufacturers can incorporate whatever components they want into their cards, different VRM's, different coolers, different memory chips, different interface connectors, even an entirely different PCB design. They tend to stick with the reference design because nVidia already certified it to work and provides developer support & warranty (not to be confused with end user support & warranty), this typically equates to a big costs savings for the card producer. If there is a big enough incentive to design their own they sometimes will, I remember EVGA doing this a few times with their Classified line.

So if people are getting coil whine then it's not nVidia but the OEM they need to talk to. Just like excessively loud fan noise and bad cooling performance.

 

[commandosupremo]

If the only issue you see is the coil whine then all your previous posts make no sense. I do have to chalk alot of the coil whine though up to the fans being so dang low. Mine only come on when I'm doing something intense, I wonder how many other cards have coil whine thats covered up by the fan noise.

This is not an nVidia issue but a board manufacturer issue. NVidia just produces the GPU's for the cards, to assist manufacturers they also produce a reference design. Manufacturers can incorporate whatever components they want into their cards, different VRM's, different coolers, different memory chips, different interface connectors, even an entirely different PCB design. They tend to stick with the reference design because nVidia already certified it to work and provides developer support & warranty (not to be confused with end user support & warranty), this typically equates to a big costs savings for the card producer. If there is a big enough incentive to design their own they sometimes will, I remember EVGA doing this a few times with their Classified line.

So if people are getting coil whine then it's not nVidia but the OEM they need to talk to. Just like excessively loud fan noise and bad cooling performance.

I know that the PCB isn't made by Nvidia just the chip for the OEMs. I'm just saying I wonder how many other OEM cards have coil noise that may just go unnoticed because the fan noise covers it up, this is one of the first commonly adopted high powered semi-passive GPUs I can think of. Heck I can hear air noise from my fans for the first time ever because I don't have GPU jet engine noise.

 

[junkeymonkey]

ya , i understand it, so well i did not buy the card - my money is still in my pocket .. but you take what i say and attack it ?? why i dont know .. is it because you got the card and now you feel shorted ?? is this why you attacked nvidia for ''misleading'' you??

all i see is chumps crying and trying to defend there 970 buy and cant.

i guess i'm so dumb i did not fall for it and spend for one so i could be pissed here at toms over it , right ??

with all the info out there and all these threads of unhappy 970 owners you still went and paid for one -- did you think you were exempt from the issues reported on them ??

bottom line is if your so not happy just rma it or refund then its all over .. case closed . no need to start cry baby threads, nothing just give the card back ... thats all you got to do ..

sad , but don't belittle me over your mistake or hard feelings of the card . I did not nor did NVidia twist your arm to buy it.. that's all on you just live with it or return it .. its that easy

look at all the 980 issue threads .. well good luck on that cause the 970 out numbers them like a 1000 to one that card works as expected

your here crying with that 970 .. if you dont know what you got in to for your self dont blame all around you for it


''Manufacturers can incorporate whatever components they want into their cards, different VRM's, different coolers, different memory chips, different interface connectors, even an entirely different PCB design.''

true --from .anandtech

''Furthermore, as we mentioned in our GTX 980 review, GTX 970 has been a pure virtual (no reference card) launch, which means all of NVIDIA’s partners are launching their custom cards right out of the gate. A lot of these have been recycled or otherwise only slightly modified GTX 700/600 series designs''

good luck , maybe NVidia will fix ya'll you out of the goodness of there hart and make things right with ya..

 

[commandosupremo]

No I did not attack you nor am I defending my purchase because I'm unhappy with it. I simply stated the rationale why I purchased what I did and why it met my specifications. I pointed out the inaccuracies in your posts regarding the 980 being true haswell, the 970 being 'defective' and you should not purchase it simply because it is a malformed 980 because there will be other people reading this to make decisions on what to purchase. There are still compelling reasons to prefer the 970 if it meets your fps / $ criteria and you are okay with its limitations.

I enumerated that for certain use cases the 970 is perfectly fine and why it can be acceptable. We then discussed how Nvidia may respond to these issues, because they did state certain specifications to reviewers for the 970 that the released design does not meet, by definition that is Nvidia releasing incorrect or misleading specifications. It's not attacking you or Nvidia. If you think I was directing that at you, I was not. Now, when 80% of the text you post is ad hominems towards people who purchased 970s or non sequiturs in completely incoherent sentence fragments discussing how smart you are, it's hard to know what you are saying and why. Needless to say its probably pointless to continue to clarify my position and opinion to you.

For those who find this post, I personally am beyond pleased with the performance of my 970. It has no coil noise and for gaming at 1080p the ram issue is unimportant to me from a performance perspective since it is likely that by the time I will need >3.5 Gb of vRAM I will have a new card. I'm not happy that Nvidia through incompetence or intentional deceit allowed incorrect specs to be released and seemingly only addressed the issue once it was 'caught' by consumers. I'm not sure how they should make up for this misinformation but I think they owe it to their consumers to provide an explanation (which they have) and possibly some compensation as there are those who would not have purchased the card had they known that a priori. I am not one of them, I didn't care.

 

[youcanDUit]

Though this should be fixed, and it shouldnt have happened really, this does not mean Nvidia is lying.
Manufacturing defects happen, and they can slip past QC. If it took users this long to find the issue, QC teams could miss it too. The 970 is a cut down 980, mistakes happen.

I do expect to see some sort of effort by Nvidia, recalls or rebates or the works. They would rather cover themselves than lose presence in the market.

i think enough people have experienced it if nvidia has made a statement about it.

 

[madmak]

Well as long as the 970 drop further in price i will be happy. Im only gaming at 1080p for the near future so no worries for me

 

[g-unit1111]

Everyone - knock off the fighting or this thread will be closed and a few timeouts may be issued. Conjunctive criticism of a company or product is OK, but the personal attacks of GTX 970 owners vs. Radeon R9-290X owners is not, otherwise this will be viewed as just another NVIDIA vs. AMD thread.

 

[junkeymonkey]

well all in all its either your happy with it and its all good or your not and then you rma or refund .. just the price gap alone shows something's up - then like here at toms theres one thread after another over the card .. then I try to hint to wait for the new AMD cards and see how they can stick it to NVidia weather in performance or price and see then how NVidia reacts .. better/improved cards , price drops , ??? I just avoid first/ early release stuff and as you now can see why

 

[sinty]

Does anyone think Newegg would honor a return based on this new information? My gtx970 runs fine with games and i dont have issues, but if the product isnt what it said it was then I would expect the seller to agree to a return regardless of when it was purchased. I purchased mine on release day and i did buy a one year warranty. If the 970 is that far off of what it said it was, then I'd certainly want my money back.

 

[vmem]

Does anyone think Newegg would honor a return based on this new information? My gtx970 runs fine with games and i dont have issues, but if the product isnt what it said it was then I would expect the seller to agree to a return regardless of when it was purchased. I purchased mine on release day and i did buy a one year warranty. If the 970 is that far off of what it said it was, then I'd certainly want my money back.

I think it would uptimately be up to Nvidia. it wouldn't hurt to email newegg (or Nvidia) customer services and find out. I am in a similar situation where I voided the warranty (asus) on my 970 by installing a waterblock. this is normally fine, but in light of this new info I wish I had gotten a 980 instead...