Solidworks/CAD System - SSD or better GPU - Advice Needed

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BNYCM

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Mar 12, 2015
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Hi, I need to provide a recommendation to my boss re a pre-built system which will need to support SW2015 and Keyshot rendering software.

It's basically down to the following two systems:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/dell-xps-desktop-intel-core-i7-24gb-memory-2tb-hard-drive-256gb-solid-state-drive-black/9792241.p?id=1219435619437&skuId=9792241
or
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1056926-REG/cyberpowerpc_bacc500_temp_title.html

They both run the same i7-4790 CPU, both have ample RAM etc.

The primary question surrounds whether it's better to go with the workstation with the 'SW approved' Quatro K2000 card and sacrifice the SSD and the additional 8gb of RAM. Or would the Dell with the SSD and additional memory be more beneficial to run the system and programs.

Would be great to hear from people who've used both Quatro and Gaming cards and SSDs with Solidworks.

Thanks so much for any advice!
 


Hi, thanks for the reply. I'm the one who will be using the machine. Everything is permanently stored on a cloud network. In saying that, I would think the current project files will be stored locally on the machine.

If it helps to clarify, I'm not really concerned with storage capacity, more whether the speed of running the OS and Programs from the SSD, outweighs the benefit of the other system which has a SW approved Quatro graphics card. Part of that question I suppose, is the Quatro K2000 going to substantially outperform the R9 270, relative to SW only (zero gaming)
 
Yes the Nvidia is always going to run solidworks better. I'm the IT manager of a manufacturing plant and we have about 7-8 Solidworks users but we usually go above and beyond when purchasing a PC.

The 2 things you have to think about in this instance are:
1. If you are opening the drawings over a network, cloud or internal, hard drive speed wont make a difference. Yea SSD's are nice and we have them in many PC's here, but as far as doing anything over a network, that's dependent on the network itself.

2. The K2000 is a good card and runs solidworks great. We have a few PC's with that card and it works well but we also have the Dell Precision Workstations. Always go with Nvidia over AMD for anything CAD.

If I were in your shoes I would get a better machine all around. We just spent 3200 on a new laptop for a user but he is getting 32G of RAM and a Quadro K3100M card and a 256SSD. Obviously it will be cheaper in a desktop form factor but I just priced out a decent rig on Dell for $2k. Stay away form the off branded like Cyberpower. Also take into account the Tech Database you will need for Solidworks and will have to get Microsoft Access.
 
Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.

I'm not sure if the budget will push that far but I will recommend a couple of systems including a Dell desktop workstation as you've suggest.

Thanks again.
 
Recommendation (all done on Dell site):
Dell Precision Tower 5810 Workstation
Xeon E5-1603 Processor
Upgrade Video Card to K2200
Upgrade RAM to 16G
Upgrade HDD to 256 SSD

Total $2,221.50

Just some food for though and you get 3 year onsite warranty
 
Wish we had you for an IT manager, instead of what we have now. I specifically asked for Nvidia based systems, for my CMM computers, as we are making the move to Zeiss's Calypso software, which is a cad based software. The first system we bought, has an AMD FirePro W5000 with a Xeon E5 1620v2. It was supposed to be a Xeon 1246v3 with a quadro K4000. My boss and I were told we would be getting the systems we asked for. Instead our IT manager got whatever he felt like....
 
I hope he didn't just custom build them or go to the store and buy them and upgrade them lol. Solidworks is a different beast. Luckily I have a good Dell Rep that feels the same way I do about building computers for use with Solidworks and we have some good systems
 


BNYCM,

Since 2010, I've used Autodesk design suites, Adobe CS, VRay rendering, Rhino, and Solidworks. Among these programs are some of the most demanding, requiring high performance , many cored CPU's, a fast workstation GPU, an a lot of fast RAM, and high performance disk subsystem.

Through use of these applications, I've learned that the system needs to be capable of the largest project in the most demanding program and this has gradually led me to Xeon > ECC RAM > Quadro systems.

GPU: In 2010 when changing to 3D CAD, I wanted a Quadro FX 5800 )2.5GB, 512-bit) but instead of the $2,600, I bought a used GeForce version of it, the GTX 285 (1GB). This has the same GPU and 512-bit bandwidth of the 5800. As it happens all these programs I use have in common that they are CUDA accelerated. To make a long story short, the GTX was a disaster as it was sluggish in viewports and could not produce a high level of anti-aliasing. I could not dimension anything in Solidworks. I was unable to produce a single useable rendering from artifacting and aliasing problems. I bought an FX 4800 (1.5GB) and all was well.

I consider GeForce GTX to unusable for Solidworks and you might appreciate this very good review from 2013 on this site:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-workstation-graphics-card,3493.html

> and you'll see that whereas there were GTX and Radeons tested in other programs, there are no Solidworks results from anything except Quadro and Firepro cards.

As for your acquisition of a new system, I highly recommend the method I've used for my last two new systems, which is to find a new HP z-series just at the introduction of a new model, being resold at low prices. I mention HP z-series as never see similar bargains for Dell Precisions.

About a month ago I found an unused z420 : Xeon E5-1660 v2 (6-core @ 3.7 /4.0GHz), 16GB ECC 1866, Quadro K600, WD Blue 500GB. Notice the clock speed of the E5-1660 v2 with a turbo speed of 4.0GHz as as far as I know the highest clock speed of any Xeon made and costing retail $1,100. That the GPU and disk were low end was an advantage as I had those components from my previous system, an HP z420 : E5-1620 4-core @ 3.6 / 3.8.

The new z420 cost $950 shipping included. I changed the K600 for a Quadro K2200, added an Intel 730 480GB SSD and WD Black 1TB with the result:

HP z420 (2015) > Xeon E5-1660 v2 six core @ 3.7 /4.0GHz > 16GB DDR3 ECC 1866 RAM > Quadro K2200 (4GB) > Intel 730 480GB > Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > Logitech z2300 > Linksys AE3000 USB WiFi > 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H 2560 X 1440 > Windows 7 Professional 64 >
[ Passmark Rating = 4918 > CPU= 13941 / 2D= 823 / 3D=3464 / Mem= 2669 / Disk= 4764]

There are 199 T5500 systems on the Passmark benchmarks, and currently- by only four points, this is the best performing.

Now, the cost:

z420: new > $950 (listed in HP site for $2,799)
Quadro K2200 > used (3 months) > $350
Intel 730 480GB > new (after Xmas sale) $200
WD Black > new > $85
M-Audio 192 > NOS > $60
Linksys WMP600N WiFi > NOS > $18

Upgrades: $713
_____________________________
Total = $1,663

I would expect this specification if directly from HP to be in the neighborhood of $4,000+

Since doing this, I found an HP (LSI) 9212-4i SAS /SATA RAID controller for $60 ($349 from HP) and will be setting up a 2TB RAID 10. I expect that this will produce very fast disk performance.

For my second, rendering system I bought

Dell Precision T5500 (2011) Original: Xeon E5620 quad core @ 2.4 / 2.6 GHz > 6GB DDR3 ECC Reg 1066 > Quadro FX 580 (512MB) > Dell PERC 6/i SAS /SATA controller > Seagate Cheetah 15K 146GB > Linksys WMP600N WiFi > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
[ Passmark system rating = 1479 / CPU = 4067 / 2D= 520 / 3D= 311 / Mem= 1473 / Disk= 1208]

Which cost $190 with shipping. I bought a new CPU and heatsink, and transferred the GPU, SSD, and HD form my previous second system to have:

Dell Precision T5500 > Xeon X5680 six -core @ 3.33 / 3.6GHz, 24GB DDR3 ECC 1333 > Quadro 4000 (2GB ) > Samsung 840 250GB /WD RE4 Enterprise 1TB > M-Audio 192 sound card> Linksys WMP600N PCI WiFi > Windows 7 Professional 64> HP 2711x (1920 X 1440)
[ Passmark system rating = 3339 / CPU = 9347 / 2D= 684 / 3D= 2030 / Mem= 1871 / Disk= 2234]

T5500: used > $171
X5680 > $200
Uprated heatsink > $25
24GB ECC 1333 RAM $120
Quadro 4000 > used > $220
Samsung 840 250GB > new $144
WD RE4 > new > $75
M-Audio 192 > NOS > $45
Linksys WMP600N WiFi > used > $11

_______________________
Total= $1,030

> and the 7th fastest T5500 on Passmark

Since configuring this system, I've bought a NOS (LSI) PERC H310 SAS /SATA 6GB/s RAID controller for $60 which I expect will dramatically improve the 3GB/s disk system.

The T5500 (and T7500) can use dual CPU's, so with the addition of the CPU / memory /fan riser and another X5680, I can have a 12 core / 24 thread system for about +$350. The rendering has been fast enough, that I question whether the second CPU will be necessary.

One more:

Precision 390 (2006) Original: Core2 Duo 6300 dual-core @ 1.86GHz, 2GB DDR2 667 > Quadro FX550 > 2X WD 320GB . Windows XP Pro 32-bit
[ Passmark system rating =397, CPU = 587 / 2D= 248 / 3D=75 / Mem=585 / Disk = 552 ]

> This system was a gift, along with a Dell 24" monitor from a closing architectural office. This became:

Dell Precision 390 (2006): Xeon X3230 quad-core @ 2.67GHz > 8 GB DDR2 ECC 667 > Firepro V4900 (1GB) > 2X WD 320GB >Linksys WMP600N WiFi > Dell 24" > 1920 X 1200 > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit
[ Passmark system rating = 1458, CPU = 3699 / 2D= 431 / 3D=1350 / Mem= 885 / Disk=552]

Precision 390 > $0
Dll 24" monitor > $0
Xeon X3230 > $32
8GB DDR2 667 ECC > $36
Firepro V4900 > $0 (this was the original GPU from my first HP z420)
Linksys WMP600N > used > $6

__________________________
Total = $74

> and which is the 6th fastest 390 on Passmark.

This system will acquire the PERC 6/i RAID controller and 146GB Dell Seagate15K drive left over from the original T5500 and the Quadro K620 from the original HP z420. I've bought a second SAS drive, a Dell 15K Seagate 300GB ($42) as storage drive..

It's quite apparent in these examples that acquiring a recently obsolete system with a lower specification can yield excellent cost/ benefit results and the more obsolete it is, the more dramatic the ratio becomes as the uprated components become so inexpensive- the Xeon X5680 that I bought for $200 cost $1552 new in 2010. Also, when you get into a hand-me-down recycling of the best components down to second and third systems, the cumulative effect is impressive inexpensive and effective.

If the upgrade scheme does not appeal, I would then only srongly recommend staying with workstation components. Look at the AurtoDesk and Dessault sites at their recommended systems and GPU's.

Many professional offices will not buy used systems or components, but I would mention that I've had eight used Quadros since 2002 and never a failure, nor have any of the four used Precisions I've had ever missed a beat.

I would enjoy knowing what you decide

Cheers,

BambiBoom




 


Wow, epic reply. Thank you so much for taking the time to give your valuable input!

If it were me personally in charge of purchasing and setting up the hardware, I'd be more likely to go down the route of building or modifying a machine to gain better performance/value combination.

Based on my research and online recommendations, I can see the benefit of running professional/workstation grade hardware. As such I have recommended this system: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1117524-REG/hp_f1m26ut_aba_hp_z230_f1m26ut_tower.html

The above system has a Quatro K2200 but is combined with an i7 and PC3 RAM.

I have also found the following system and based on your recommendation of sticking with Xeon > ECC RAM > Quadro, perhaps it would be better ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1095798-REG/hp_f1m53ut_aba_z440_workstation.html).

What do you think? Is the lack of SSD and only 8gb of RAM worth the inclusion of the Xeon processor and the fact the memory is ECC?

I'd love to know your thoughts.

 
Man that's a tough call. I would still stick with the Xeon and increase the RAM capacity. Yea you are losing the SSD capability which is nice but I would still the Xeon route. I think it is a better processor for more powerful everyday applications.
 



BNYCM,

First, I completely understand that your firm insists on a system that is on the whole ready to use. I've come in contact with many design and engineering firms over the years and not one gives strong consideration to used systems, building, or serious upgrading of their systems as the billable time lost is greater than the savings and any kind of failure or questionable reliability may quickly double the cost of the system. A couple of years ago I read that if the servers at Amazon.com failed, they would lose $500,000 per hour. This apparently made a pre-emptive $4,000,000 replacement more worthwhile than even risking a failure.

As for the systems under consideration, I think the HP z440 system is far and away the better choice. The 440 is a current model and using an LGA2011-3 Xeon CPU- which has a 68GB/s bandwidth and 40 PCIe lanes as compared to the 25.6GB/s and 16 lanes of the i7-4790. Also the z440 system uses DDR4 ECC 2133 instead of DDR3 1600. The LGA-2011-3 could be upgraded to an 18-core, but the z230 is a maximum of 4-core. To demonstrate the relative seriousness of the two systems, the z230 can use 32GB of RAM, while the z440 can use 128GB. Anyway, I think having the 4-core 3.7 /3.8GHz Xeon will be sufficient as Solidworks does not have strong multi-threading- perhaps the simulation does. The z440 PSU s 525w to the z230 400W. I think a 400W power supply is a severe limitation. Miraculously the z440 is also $70 cheaper. In both cases, the Quadro K2200 (4GB) I think is an excellent choice overall- with a caveat. I've used a K2200 one for about four months and it has about the best cost /performance ration of any workstation GPU. The whole Kx200 line is fantastic.

The one caveat to the K2200 in Solidworks is based on whether you will will doing large assemblies and /or mechanical action and flow simulation. I have an upcoming project with 6,000+ parts that also has to have dynamic structural analysis and I'm wondering if the K2200 will not be balky. If you are doing production design, or whole vehicles and so on, you might see if B&H can supply it with a Quadro K4200 for a reasonable extra. If you're doing complex modeling /simulation and the upgrade costs less than +$500- consider getting the K4200.

RAM: My inclination would be to add a minimum of 1X 8GB to the z440 right away. If you're doing large projects, make it 3X 8GB for 32GB total. The memory is quad channel anyway and you'll have better performance overall. I should mention that a few days ago on the z420 (16GB DDR3 1866), I opened: AutoCad, 3DS Max, Solidworks, Illustrator CS6, Maya, Sketchup and two browsers, and without files- programs only-Task Manager showed 7GB used. I frequently run at least four simultaneous large programs and with sizable files, 8GB would provide no overhead- it would be swapping to disk. I had a Dell Precision T5400 (2X 4-core X5460) and when it had 8GB RAM I went into disk swapping mode three or four times and that's painful ! When I start my big Solidworks project, I'm going from 16 to 32GB RAM and have my eyes open for an inexpensive K4200 as well. I can sell my K2200 fro about what I paid $350- and a "new other" K4200 is under $700, so the change is not terirbly expensive.

Yes, the z440 at that price- excellent choice. I would only inquire as to the cost of changing to a Quadro K4200- much less expensive now than later.

Cheers,

BambiBoom
 
Such great advice. Thanks for taking the time to provide your input, it is very much appreciated! Looks like the Z440 with a RAM upgrade is the go!

The work carried out on this machine will be modelling small consumer electronic products for production. We will likely use some basic FEA tools and mold flow analysis for injection molded parts etc. However, it will never have to deal with massive assemblies, so for the most part, this machine should be very capable.

Thanks again for the input bambiboom and individual101.
 
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