SpecInt/SpecFP - Intel vs AMD

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This is completely true in that one benchmark. That one benchmark is the only one I was interested in, because I was discussing the validity of the benchmark conclusions, not their truth. In general, given a proposition P, it shows the conclusion Q. (If P, then Q.) For this type of logical argument, if P is true, then Q is true. If P is not true, we know nothing about Q. Tom presented data, and then made a conslusion. If we say that "P" means "DDR produces better benchmark result data" and "Q" means "DDR is faster", then this is a valid argument.

We do not yet know if "P" is true, but we can already see that the form of the logic is valid. If "DDR produces better benchmark result data", then "DDR is faster". I will not argue with this. It's totally valid. This however, says nothing about whether or not P is in fact true. We must go to the table of data he presents in that benchmark. Looking over the table we see that 100MHz DDR performs the same as 100MHz SDRAM. Hmmmm. We see he has numbers for 133MHz DDR, but no numbers for 133MHZ SDRAM, so we cannot say anything about DDR in that case. Results are inconclusive there.

Based on the data, we cannot say he showed "P" to be true. I am also not saying I believe "P" to be false. I in fact believe "P" actually to be true, but we must go only on the data shown in Tom's table for his benchmark. So whereas we cannot show "P" to be true (we cannot show that DDR produces better benchmark result data) for that benchmark, we cannot show "Q" to be true (we cannot say that DDR is faster.)

However, Tom jumps right to saying that "Q" is true (DDR is faster.) He does this without citing any supporting evidence. He certainly can't use "P" as evidence. The data in his tables doesn't support it. Therefore, his argument is logically invalid. Because his argument is invalid, his conclusion means nothing. It may be true, it may be false. But, it's not supported anywhere in his benchmark or argument.

Later, in other benchmarks at other sites, we find out that DDR is faster than SDRAM through some good data and valid arguments. This does not change the fact that Tom's logic was flawed. The flaw in his logic for this benchmark is what I was presenting as evidence that raw data should be preferred over merely taking a reviewer's conclusions at face value.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
Well then Ray, we may be coming to some sort of agreement. I truly was not trying to get off on a tangent here, although that does certainly seemed to have happend. I would have much rather debated this point with you on another thread and it is that thread that brought me here. I do not take issue with your Specpf claims. The only thing I took issue with was this statement and this statement alone:

"Tom's benchmarks aren't very reliable. Take, for example, the SDRAM vs DDR benchmark comparisons: http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboard/00q4/001030/athlon-15.html"

Here you make a broad sweeping claim that all of Tom's testing is unreliable. And to support your claim you use this SDR DDR comparison. If that was not your intention then I, along with others I am sure, certainly took it this way. You used this comparison to draw into question the viability of yet another one of Tom's test. I suppose you felt that if you discredited one of his claims then by proxy you would have in effect discredited all of them. Then you choose to make an ssumption of your own, making yourself guilty of the very thing you claimed made Tom's testing unreliable. You made the claim that is was do to the fact of an increased FSB alone that this increase was achieved by making this statement.

"SDRAM would give you the same numbers when performing at 133MHz.

While you can argue that Tom should have never made the claim he did about the 10 % performance gain being attributed to DDR Ram do to the fact at the time he had not yet tested an equally equiped 133 fsb SDRAM system, and you may have a point, subsequent testing, maybe by luck and luck alone, has shown that his conclusion was indeed correct. Also, that your conclusion was incorrect. Did Tom have a way of actually know that his conclusion would hold true? We may never know :) Your comparison of the 100 mhz FSB of DDR and SDR have another explanation. At 100 FSB there is not enough bandwith available to the processor itself to take advantage of the increased performance of DDR RAM. That does not mean that DDR has no benfits period, only that at 100 mhz fsb it definatly is not needed. But we all already know this and seen this demonstrated when RDRAM and the p-3 were coupled.
But I digress, anyone reading this thread probably now thinks I am some huge fan of DDR. And to tell you the truth I am not. It may actually only be viable in the utmost top of the line system were cost is not a factor and a performance gain nearing 10% is well worth the money invested. My only point of this whole argument was to dispute the fact that I took issue with you making such a broad sweeping statement regarding the credibilty of Tom's testing.



A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
Alright then, we can put this behind us. I'll withdraw my "SDRAM would give you the same numbers when performing at 133MHz" comment. It was a linear interpolation stemming from the 100MHz data. Interpolations are not supported by actual evidence as they are just (usually good, sometimes not) guesses.

I just want people to look beyond media hype and beyond reviewers' conclusions at hard data. I have a dislike for propaganda, as I'm guessing many others do as well.

Getting back to the original subject of this thread...

[Raystonn redirects the target audience of the thread back to 'ALL'.]

I continue to submit that the P4 performs better in these benchmarks than the Athlon. I can't wait for more software to be released that have been compiled with optimizations for P4's pipeline as well as the other CPUs out there. :)

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
Well, there ended up being two separate arguments in the end. 1) Tom screwed up that benchmark's conclusions. 2) DDR is faster than SDRAM.

I believe we came out of that one showing both as true.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
Advanced Micro Devic Gigabyte GA-7DX Motherboard, 1.33GHz 1 414 445 Text HTML PDF PS Config

Why does it when I click on the config tab in the link you provide does it show me an asus a7v running with a 1.2 gig processor and not the gigabyte board with the 1.33 athlon? This is merly a question I am trying to find out the exact configuration of the system you choose to compare with the p4 system to see if the athlon was shown in it best possible light.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
actually memory bandwidth may not be such an important factor in specCPU. also tom does not always keep components exactly the same.

i had a drink the other day... opinions were like kittens i was givin' away
 
Interesting. Based on all the other links showing the correct information, I would say someone at AMD screwed up the labelling job. I can't say for sure though.

Based on the scores, it's definately not a 1.2GHz Athlon on an Asus board. That's actually the top listing and turns in much lower scores.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
Getting back to the original topic of this thread,
can we look into this matter comparing two systems as equall as possible? That would be the p4-1.3 and the athlon at 1.33. This would keep things on a level keel, as you have professed is so neccesary by terms of your SDR- DDR comparison. Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand you as saying that the reason for the p-4 dominance in the FPU test is do to its advanced pipeline more than the fact it has SSE2. Have we a comparison using the fastest DDR motherboard with an athlon "C" (266 mhz fsb) for comparison in these test to actually get that 10% performance increase that may sway the balance? You see know I am starting to use your own argument against you. Take a look:

from looking at gigabyte's website http://www.giga-byte.com the main difference I notice is the 7dxc does not indicate it supports pc2100 ddr ram only pc1600. Therefore it could only run the bus at 100mhz (ddr200).

Now we have already shown that at 100 mhz FSB there is no performance increase. Although when upped to 133 fsb there is.

As you have so additmattly stated, it is imperative that we keep things equall. However when cross comparing two different platforms this is not always possible. This is in effect the point I originally started to try and get at.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
don't want to be too knit picky, but noticed an error in your formal logic that i think you should know about.

1. p->q, p therefor q
this is valid as you have stated but
2. p->q, ~q (not q), therefor ~p
this is also valid.

i had a drink the other day... opinions were like kittens i was givin' away
 
oops sorry too tired to see straight. you were completely correct... i'll be back when i can read...

i had a drink the other day... opinions were like kittens i was givin' away
 
LOL, interesting in deed, I wonder what else could be wrong in that misposting. Actually just kidding, it very well may be mislabled. Still looking for an athlon "C" using a 266fsb with 2100DDR cas 2 ram for comparison.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
"That would be the p4-1.3 and the athlon at 1.33"

Actually, if you want a clock per clock comparison then we should compare the 1.3GHz P4 with the 1.3GHz Athlon.

Integer:
1.3GHz Pentium 4: 473+483
1.3GHz Athlon: 438+491

Floating Point:
1.3GHz Pentium 4: 503+511
1.3GHz Athlon: 348+374


"it is imperative that we keep things equall. However when cross comparing two different platforms this is not always possible"

You are correct. This is not always possible. Therefore, objective comparisons on the basis of any specific component within the test suite is not possible. We can, however, still state that the overall combination of the P4 with that motherboard and RAM vastly outperforms the overall combination of the Athlon with that motherboard and RAM. We can analyze what motherboard and RAM were used by AMD in this test. I would really be surprised if they had submitted results using inferior hardware though. It's in their best self interest to make these scores as high as possible.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
"Still looking for an athlon "C" using a 266fsb with 2100DDR cas 2 ram for comparison"

I would be interested in seeing this benchmark done as well. However, I don't see a 10% increase (I don't think you'd get that much of an increase anyhow.. maybe around 3-6%) giving AMD the lead in the floating point test, do you?

Now then, if prices were the same for the two CPUs set at the same clock speed, it looks like the P4 is winning out at the moment. If ever a P4 is priced lower than an equivolently clocked Athlon, the P4 definately would win out in a performance / price ratio.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
excuse me but arent you posting the wrong results???? it should look like this:

Advanced Micro Devic Gigabyte GA-7DX , 1.33GHz 482 539
Intel Corporation Intel D850GB 1.3 GHz, Pe 473 483

advantage AMD

Intel Corporation Intel D850GB 1.3 GHz, Pe 503 511
Advanced Micro Devic Gigabyte GA-7DX ,1.33GHz 414 445

advantage intel







A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
Err no. Why compare the 1.33MHz Athlon and the 1.3MHz P4? They should either both be at the same clock speed or both be at their current maximum clock speed, dependong on what you're comparing. This is why I compared 1.3GHz for both.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
Here is an interesting review showing a better motherboard for the athlon using specperf:

http://www.tomshardware.com/mainboard/01q1/010314/amd760-09.html

The ASUS board clearly beats out the gigabyte offering. By margins that may very well be enough to overtake the p4 at 1.3. I may also point out that my earlier assesment or the gigabyte not being a 133 fsb board was incorrect. An error made in my part I was confused with the ga-7xc. Also bear in mind that these tests were done using cas 2.5 DDR memory. cas 2.0 ddr memory is about to become comercially available.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
Oh good greif give me a break now you want to use the athlon using the SDRAM and locked in at a fsb of 100 and not 133, when the p4 is using a fsb of 400 ( 100 quad pumped) You screamed bloody murder when Tom did a comparison with SDRAM at 100 and DDR at 133 FSB. You going to begrudge the athlon a whopping cpu clock advantage of .03 when the p4 system is costing how much more???????? Gimmee a break. Lets cripple the p4 with sdram then and see what that gives us.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
If you'd like to compare using the 133MHz FSB and 1.33GHz Athlon, that's fine. Just remember to take a little more than 2.3% off from its scores. That's assuming a linear speedup from 1.3GHz had they managed to use a 133MHz FSB with it.

Anyhow, the P4 is still ahead even without the Athlon's 2.3% penalty to bring it in line with 1.3GHz. The P4 is still the fastest processor.

-Raystonn


-- The center of your digital world --
 
Ok now that I can agree too. Now you need to provide me with the correct information as to the system configuration of the thread you use for the gigabyte board with the athlon at 1.33 gig. If I am to use your link the actual system config is a 1.2 gig athlon coupled with pc-133 sdram. Now we both know this is highly unlikely, however can you tell me just exactly what it is? If you can't then the data you provide us for proof of your argument is invalid.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
Hey now, it's not my fault AMD screwed up their own benchmark. 😉 Seriously though, I'd obviously have no idea besides what's provided on that site, as submitted by AMD. Perhaps somebody should send an email to AMD and/or Spec and let them know about this? I doubt anyone's noticed until now. I certainly hadn't until you brought it up.

Would you mind dropping a note to some AMD email address letting them know? Perhaps you can actually request the actual configuration in the same email. I'd bet dollars to donuts it was exactly the same as the one listed on the 2nd row in the table though, with only the CPU differing (Gigabyte with an Athlon 1.2GHz.) I couldn't tell you what kind of RAM they used though. Considering this is their own benchmark, they'd have to be pretty stupid not to use the best available.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --
 
Just to make sure we are on the same page. We have agreed in order to study the two different cpu's that we would:

a) use the intel 1.3 gig and the AMD 1.33 gig. In order to give a clock per clock analysis the AMD CPU being slightly higher gets a penalty of 2.3%.

b) give each processor the best supporting subsystem available. ( ie memory, motherboard et all)

We have concluded that running at stock speeds the highest clocked Intel processor ( 1.7 gig) will win any test.

However, given a dollar per dollar ( and yes I am talking at todays prices, who knows were the dust may settle after the next round of price cuts) comparison the AMD processor would win this test.

Would you consider the above a fair statement?

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!
 
"However, given a dollar per dollar ( and yes I am talking at todays prices, who knows were the dust may settle after the next round of price cuts) comparison the AMD processor would win this test."

You're probably correct at this moment. In 10 days though, Intel will be the leader here. I know exactly what price the P4s will be selling at on the 26th. I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. 😉

One important thing to note is that you can only buy so many dollars worth of AMD equipment before their current offering caps out. Buying multiple CPUs won't help when running most of today's software, such as games. They tend to be single threaded.

-Raystonn

-- The center of your digital world --