Stereophile & Cable Theory

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"George Middius" <George_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:devlo702bl3@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>
> The Bug Eater argues for Kroothanasia.
>
>> In short Arnii is feces and should be flushed.
>
> Would you like to do the honors, Mickey?
>
Yes George, I'd like to flush you, you are after all RAO's biggest turd.

 

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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:Z7mdnZ2dnZ1QM2ugnZ2dnadnj96dnZ2dRVn-y52dnZ0@comcast.com...
> <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:1125315999.689227.164780@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> > Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory
> > is posted today at <A
> >
HREF="http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable">www.stereophile.com/re
ference/1095cable</A>.
>
> That's just raw HTML from a web page. The correct URL is:
>
> http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/
>
> > Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow
> > for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies
> > might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics
> > predict the opposite.
>
>
> Publishing such an unecessarily math-intensive article in a
> consumer publication has an obvious subtext - "It's all so
> complex that you can't possibly understand it, so believe
> whatever we say".
>
> If you want to read a series of articles that is compentetly
> written

No, I don't know what the hell "compentely" is, and I don't want to find
out. Competent is good enough for me.

 

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"John Atkinson" <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:1125358999.997016.174630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> nyob123@peoplepc.com wrote:
>> <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
>> news:1125315999.689227.164780@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> > Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory is
>> > posted today at www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable.
>> > Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow
>> > for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies
>> > might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics predict
>> > the opposite.
>> >
>> But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled comparison
>> of cables where anyone, ever, heard a difference between normal
>> cables. In short wire is wire.
>
> Actually, at the time Dan Dugan of the AES was doing cable tests
> at the 1991 AES Convention, he subjected John Hunter of Sumiko
> to a series of bias-controlled tests comparing the cables
> distributed by Sumiko to others. John identified the cables to
> a statistically significant degree. When Dan wrote up his 1991
> cable tests for the JAES, he omitted Hunter's results.

What kind of cables? Interconnects or speaker?
What were the sources and loads?
Any MIT like networks in the cables?

There are lots of ways to make cables sound different.
Do any of them represent good audio engineering?

ScottW

 

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George "Minus" Middius a écrit :

>...Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters...

In fact George knows only dickhunters so if you are looking
for blowjobs... ;-)

 

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George "Minus" Middius a écrit :

>...Want some help applying for a job? I know several headhunters...

In fact George knows only dickhunters so if you are looking
for blowjobs... ;-)

 

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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:49:41 -0400, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com>
wrote:


>George has about 4 converts - Art Sackman,

And? I'm still waiting for my name to be taken in vain again.

 

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ScottW wrote:
> "John Atkinson" <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:1125358999.997016.174630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > at the time Dan Dugan of the AES was doing cable tests
> > at the 1991 AES Convention, he subjected John Hunter of Sumiko
> > to a series of bias-controlled tests comparing the cables
> > distributed by Sumiko to others. John identified the cables to
> > a statistically significant degree. When Dan wrote up his 1991
> > cable tests for the JAES, he omitted Hunter's results.
>
> What kind of cables? Interconnects or speaker?
> What were the sources and loads?
> Any MIT like networks in the cables?

This was 15 years ago, ScottW. I am afraid I can't recall the details,
but I did discuss these tests with both Hunter and Dugan at the time.
But as Sumiko doesn't and didn't distribute cables with "MIT-like
networks" it is unlikely that the tests I mentioned used those.
It is probable that the tests involved Sumiko's OCOS cables, but
I cannot swear to that.

If you are sincerely interested, I can put you in touch with
the parties involved. All I was doing was pointing out to
Mike McKelvy that once again he made a sweeping, unqualified
statement that was based more on faith and his lack of knowledge
than on facts.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

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"Clyde Slick" <artsackman@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1125358027_153@spool6-east.superfeed.net
> "Don Pearce" <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote in message
> news:qn3iush2g4pa.1kga5a9z1knu5$.dlg@40tude.net...
>
>> Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying
>> cables.
>
> Stereophile is about buying cables, not cables.

It's the thousand monkey effect - after zillions of lying,
mindless posts, Art stumbles into cogency.

 

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"John Atkinson" <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote
in message
news:1125358999.997016.174630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> nyob123@peoplepc.com wrote:
>> <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
>> news:1125315999.689227.164780@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable
>>> theory is posted today at
>>> www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable. Those who
>>> state that the "laws of physics" don't allow
>>> for differences in cable performance at audio
>>> frequencies might be surprised to learn that the laws
>>> of physics predict the opposite.
>>>
>> But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled
>> comparison of cables where anyone, ever, heard a
>> difference between normal cables. In short wire is wire.
>
> Actually, at the time Dan Dugan of the AES was doing
> cable tests at the 1991 AES Convention, he subjected John
> Hunter of Sumiko to a series of bias-controlled tests
> comparing the cables distributed by Sumiko to others.
> John identified the cables to a statistically significant
> degree. When Dan wrote up his 1991 cable tests for the
> JAES, he omitted Hunter's results.

.....leaving the above anecdote unconfirmable.

 

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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 17:38:44 -0400, George M. Middius wrote:

> Don Pearce said:
>
>>>>> No thank you. For some reason, I don't see the wisdom in spending $400 or more
>>>>> on a comparator and investing hundreds of hours on "tests" to rationalize buying
>>>>> $20 cables instead of $60 cables. YMMV of course.
>
>>>> Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying cables.
>
>>> Oh, you wanna be a audio enjuhnear? Why dint ya say so. Want some help
>>> applying for a job? I know several headhunters. Only thing is, junior
>>> cable wonk jobs don't pay much. Just so you know what you're getting into.
>>
>> Never mind, George.
>
> So you don't care about buying cables, and you don't care about designing
> cables. I guess that leaves mental masturbation.
>

Well, please enjoy that George. I don't buy cables - I have (like I'm
pretty sure everybody else here has) a box of cables collected over the
years that have accompanied various equipment purchasesas freebies. I use
them because I know they are perfect for my needs. I know that no other
cables at any price can sound any better.

I will leave the mental masturbation to you and anybody else who believes
otherwise.

>> Better luck next time, huh?
>
> Please spare us the details.

Glad to.

d

 

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Don Pearce said:

> > So you don't care about buying cables, and you don't care about designing
> > cables. I guess that leaves mental masturbation.

> Well, please enjoy that George.

An IKYABWAI from you, Don? I'm disappointed.

> I know that no other cables at any price can sound any better.

So you're not shopping for cables, you're not interesting in designing and
selling cables, and you know everything there is to know about cables.

What is there to "discuss" then?

> I will leave the mental masturbation to you and anybody else who believes
> otherwise.

Oh, of course.

 

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On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 04:50:01 -0400, George M. Middius wrote:

> Don Pearce said:
>
>>> So you don't care about buying cables, and you don't care about designing
>>> cables. I guess that leaves mental masturbation.
>
>> Well, please enjoy that George.
>
> An IKYABWAI from you, Don? I'm disappointed.
>

You set 'em up - I'll knock 'em down.

>> I know that no other cables at any price can sound any better.
>
> So you're not shopping for cables, you're not interesting in designing and
> selling cables, and you know everything there is to know about cables.
>

Shame on you George, for taking my limited proposition and attempting to
refute it by claiming I have made a general proposition. I may be stupid -
but you aren't catching me with that old chestnut of a debating trick.

> What is there to "discuss" then?
>
Certainly not my cable purchasing habits - but maybe a little helpful
education can guide others along a more sensible path than throwing their
money at fraudsters. I guess I'm just nice that way.

>> I will leave the mental masturbation to you and anybody else who believes
>> otherwise.
>
> Oh, of course.

d

 

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Don Pearce said:

> but maybe a little helpful
> education can guide others along a more sensible path than throwing their
> money at fraudsters. I guess I'm just nice that way.

So this is your prime directive? And you implement it by prattling on
about "tests"?

I'm reluctant to resort to a cliche, but you have too much time on your
hands.

 

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"Clyde Slick" <artsackman@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1125410609_379@spool6-east.superfeed.net
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:4eadnR32hYohoYneRVn-hA@comcast.com...
>> "Clyde Slick" <artsackman@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:1125358027_153@spool6-east.superfeed.net
>>> "Don Pearce" <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote in message
>>> news:qn3iush2g4pa.1kga5a9z1knu5$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>>
>>>> Get a grip, George - this is about cables, not buying
>>>> cables.
>>>
>>> Stereophile is about buying cables, not cables.
>>
>> It's the thousand monkey effect - after zillions of
>> lying, mindless posts, Art stumbles into cogency.
>>
>
> Duh, what else is is a consumer magazine for and about,
> buying things related to the hobby.

How about a magazine that will help you get more enjoyment
out of what you bought, not less?

> u seem to have a problem with that.

I have no problem with consumer magazines promoting
commerce as long as it is done in an ethical manner.

 

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Another Kroonundrum looms. Will this one be more or less horrific than the
earlier ones about "lying" and "hypocrisy"? (That's "hypocracy" in Krooglish,
Arnii.)

>I have no problem with consumer magazines promoting
>commerce as long as it is done in an ethical manner.

Arnii, are you presenting yourself as an arbiter of ethics? That's laughable. In
case you've forgotten, you're nuts. As in whacko, bananas, not all there.

But do expound on the Krooger version of "ethical" publishing. Will it be
farther from reality than Don's is? We're waiting eagerly for the rules of
Kroo-ethics.

 

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John Atkinson wrote:
> ScottW wrote:
> > "John Atkinson" <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
> > news:1125358999.997016.174630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > at the time Dan Dugan of the AES was doing cable tests
> > > at the 1991 AES Convention, he subjected John Hunter of Sumiko
> > > to a series of bias-controlled tests comparing the cables
> > > distributed by Sumiko to others. John identified the cables to
> > > a statistically significant degree. When Dan wrote up his 1991
> > > cable tests for the JAES, he omitted Hunter's results.
> >
> > What kind of cables? Interconnects or speaker?
> > What were the sources and loads?
> > Any MIT like networks in the cables?
>
> This was 15 years ago, ScottW. I am afraid I can't recall the details,
> but I did discuss these tests with both Hunter and Dugan at the time.
> But as Sumiko doesn't and didn't distribute cables with "MIT-like
> networks" it is unlikely that the tests I mentioned used those.
> It is probable that the tests involved Sumiko's OCOS cables, but
> I cannot swear to that.
>
> If you are sincerely interested, I can put you in touch with
> the parties involved.

No, thanks. If someone had documented a positive test I would only be
mildly interested in the system tbat allowed such an outcome.

> All I was doing was pointing out to
> Mike McKelvy that once again he made a sweeping, unqualified
> statement that was based more on faith and his lack of knowledge
> than on facts.

There are always exceptions. One should never consider a cable
outside of its application in a system.
The question really comes down to these choices.

Is the system so "good" that one can hear cable differences?
or
Is the system so "flawed" than one can hear cable differences?

ScottW

 

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NYOB says: (Google message 12, Aug. 29)

"But naturally, there is not one single bias controlled comparison of
cables
where anyone, ever, heard a difference between normal cables. In short
wire
is wire."

But "naturally" he is unable to quote "one single bias controlled'
(his cryptonim for ABX/DBT) comparison between anything and anything
else in audio. He was challenged twice for a reference to a published
report (Author(s), title , year, Nr.,page). of an ABX testing, where
the majority recognised the difference.. And he clammed up twiice only
to reemerge after a suitable interval.
Mr. McKelvy where else outside the long-suffering usenet did your
"test" work?
Ludovic Mirabel
P.S. To prevent you from quoting phony references again here is one
for you to digest: (L. Greenhill, Monster vs Radio Shack:same gauge
cable, ABX/DBT comparison Stereo Review '83)
Three out of 15 panelists scored correctly well over 50% and one had
81% positive result. Which proves that a few can surmount even the ABX
obstacle race.
So much for "anyone,ever"

 

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nyob123@peoplepc.com wrote:
> "John Atkinson" <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:1125410425.277767.18370@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > All I was doing was pointing out to Mike McKelvy that once again
> > he made a sweeping, unqualified statement that was based more on
> > faith and his lack of knowledge than on facts.
> >
> No, what you were doing was trying to cast doubt on a well known fact.

How can it be a "well-known fact," Mr. McKelvy, if there are
exceptions?
You made a general but incorrect statement. If you want to change your
claim to "Nobody has ever heard a difference in cables that can't
be distinguished in listening tests," I wouldn't disagree with you.
Except such a self-referential statement is hardly helpful, is it?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

 

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Robert Gault says:


"And not just audio. Any scientific pursuit from medicine to taste
comparisons of soda uses DBT"

The only thing medical drug research DBT tests have in common with
audio component comparison is the name.
The medical tests' subjects subjective responses are always compared
with and validated by FACTS: outcome of the disease, laboratory and
Xray results.
Otherwise the positive responses (" I feel better") to a placebo, or
quack mumbo jumbo would have equal validity with objective outcomes.
Compare!
Ludovic Mirabel

 

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On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:59:45 -0400, George M. Middius wrote:

> Don Pearce said:
>
>> but maybe a little helpful
>> education can guide others along a more sensible path than throwing their
>> money at fraudsters. I guess I'm just nice that way.
>
> So this is your prime directive? And you implement it by prattling on
> about "tests"?
>
> I'm reluctant to resort to a cliche, but you have too much time on your
> hands.

So very true - here I am even discussing this with you.

Busy, George?

d

 

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Don Pearce said:

>> So this is your prime directive? And you implement it by prattling on
>> about "tests"?

>> I'm reluctant to resort to a cliche, but you have too much time on your
>> hands.
>
>So very true - here I am even discussing this with you.

Well, we've cleared that up. You have this desire to brainwash people into
buying the cheapest stuff that will get the job done, and you act out on Usenet.

Audio 'borgism can creep up on you.

 

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On 30 Aug 2005 07:45:17 -0700, George Middius wrote:

> Don Pearce said:
>
>>> So this is your prime directive? And you implement it by prattling on
>>> about "tests"?
>
>>> I'm reluctant to resort to a cliche, but you have too much time on your
>>> hands.
>>
>>So very true - here I am even discussing this with you.
>
> Well, we've cleared that up. You have this desire to brainwash people into
> buying the cheapest stuff that will get the job done, and you act out on Usenet.
>
> Audio 'borgism can creep up on you.

I think presenting the option is hardly brainwashing - which I think we can
happily direct to the other side of the argument.

d

 

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Don Pearce said:

>> Well, we've cleared that up. You have this desire to brainwash
>> people into buying the cheapest stuff that will get the job done,
>> and you act out on Usenet.

>> Audio 'borgism can creep up on you.

>I think presenting the option is hardly brainwashing -

How, exactly, do you "present the option"? If "the option" is engaging in
"tests", it seems quite impractical to me. Krazy Krooger just fatuously
Kroo-klaimed that one can do meaningful DBTs without a comparator and without
spending a great deal of time. Those are patently false assertions. Perhaps you
can shed some light on this subject.

> which I think we can happily direct to the other side of the argument.

You mean my "argument", i.e. that spending many hours and many dollars to decide
which cables to buy is foolish? If anybody doesn't view the issue that way, it's
a good bet they have issues about audio equipment.

 

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"Robert Morein" <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:W5adnbgIz79kOY7eRVn-iA@giganews.com...
>
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:Z7mdnZ2dnZ1QM2ugnZ2dnadnj96dnZ2dRVn-y52dnZ0@comcast.com...
>> <Stereophile_Editor@Compuserve.com> wrote in message
>> news:1125315999.689227.164780@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
>> > Malcolm Omar Hawksford's seminal article on cable theory
>> > is posted today at <A
>> >
> HREF="http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable">www.stereophile.com/re
> ference/1095cable</A>.
>>
>> That's just raw HTML from a web page. The correct URL is:
>>
>> http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/
>>
>> > Those who state that the "laws of physics" don't allow
>> > for differences in cable performance at audio frequencies
>> > might be surprised to learn that the laws of physics
>> > predict the opposite.
>>
>>
>> Publishing such an unecessarily math-intensive article in a
>> consumer publication has an obvious subtext - "It's all so
>> complex that you can't possibly understand it, so believe
>> whatever we say".
>>
>> If you want to read a series of articles that is compentetly
>> written
>
> No, I don't know what the hell "compentely" is,
> and I don't want to find
> out. Competent is good enough for me.
>
When can we expect to see evidence of this competence?

 

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"George Middius" <George_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:devrrk02vle@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>
> Oh dear. The Krooborg is rampaging and my raincoat is at the cleaner.
>
Probably needed to get the stains out after your trip to the elementary
school, or was it the NAMBLA meeting?


>>> Arnii, are you attempting to argue audio with me? The
>>> last time you tried this, they had to cart you off to a
>>> rest home for a few weeks.
>
>>Externalizing again, Middius?
>
> I notice you're still ducking the questionnaire about your public
> declarations
> of dissolution. When they come for you, you can't say I didn't warn you.
>
There is no "you."

>>> You might do better with your
>>> mental problems if you didn't let your buttons get pushed
>>> so easily.
>
>>Middus, what about all the buttons of yours that got pushed,
>>causing you to rise out of bed and make that
>>self-destructive OP?
>
> Hey, you scored another Kroopologist today. He actually parroted that
> "facts"
> nonsense you spout all the time.

Like people repeating 2+2=4. Facts are facts and you don't seem to have
grasped that.

Let's try out some actual facts. It's a fact
> that you, Arnii Krooborg, are frequently compared to turds and overflowing
> toilets.

Why do substitute a made up name for your own? Oh that's right, your name
is made up as well.