Stress Test MK II

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Just in case anyone was missing our dear friend Porkster, he's spouting his pig sh*t over on the Anandtech forums.

I'm sure he'll get as warm a welcome there as he did here...

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<font color=green>AMD</font color=green> Athlon64, Abit AV8.
<font color=blue>Intel</font color=blue> Dual PIII, Asus P2B-DS.
<font color=blue>VIA</font color=blue> Epia M9000.
<font color=red>I</font color=red><font color=green>B</font color=green><font color=blue>M</font color=blue> Thinkpad 570E.
 
If nothing else, its fascinating to see how desperate intel trolls have become, making a big fuss about 1000 less rpm of the stock fan, while ignoring it does make the P4 exceed its thermal specifications, not even mentioning all the other issues.

I guess this only shows how far ahead AMD is these days..?

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
You should read <A HREF="http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?p=904137#post904137" target="_new">xtremesystems forum</A>, fugger has been "educating" it's users.. 😀

But back to this test.
Some probably think that this is good way to measure server performance...
But this is NOT the case, servers never run at 100% CPU usage, it would be a disaster.

It is totally different to run tasks at your own pace, than it is when you do what is required.
Since servers fulfill request, those can only provide 20% of max if you ask 120%, and over 80% CPU usage is nothing short of catastrophical.

This THG stress test only shows that hyperthreading works in some scenarios.
It's never been good for servers, or in any other multicpu task (except in THG stress test).
Other good in it is that when you have 1 CPU it helps in multitasking, but days of single CPU are numbered.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by HansGruber on 06/10/05 05:08 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
No business servers regularly run at 100% CPU utilization,
especially large database servers with hugh batch jobs running over night, what matters in a server environment is queue length, i.e. the number of threads waiting for a slot on the CPU.
When optimizing your batch schedule you try and use as much CPU as possible to get as much done as possible in one night, to the point that you actually try to get more done than you need, just in case
 
>But this is NOT the case, servers never run at 100% CPU
>usage, it would be a disaster.

True enough, but measuring what systems can do under 100% load will give you and idea which system will exceed the 20% IRL quicker, so that is not absurd. of course, measuring video encoding or gaming performance to gauge how well it will run a CRM or database server app would be ridiculous beyond words.

>It's never been good for servers, or in any other multicpu
>task (except in THG stress test).

Actually, its quite excellent for a lot of server workloads.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
>You should read xtremesystems forum, fugger has been
>"educating" it's users.. 😀

How sad to see someone like Fugger post like an ordinary clueless troll a la Porkster. Being biased is one thing, but that sort of BS is really making one look stupid beyond words. Intel should stop paying him, and hire someone else who can at least pretend to be credible while spouting FUD.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
ITs definately not across the board, but still have a look here:
<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.aspx?i=2291&p=21" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.aspx?i=2291&p=21</A>
<A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000280" target="_new">http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000280</A>
A quote:
"The L3-cache pushes the peak performance of the Xeon about 3% higher, but Hyperthreading boosts performance by 7%."

7% is not trivial.. otoh of course if you read the line below that, it does put it into perspective: "To resume: the Opteron simply destroys the competition".

:)



= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
Theory...
We want dual core CPUs, as normal home users, to be able to do 2 or 3 things at once without slowdown. I.e. Rip some CDs or F@H while playing a game. Reasonable scenario.

In practice AMD style...
FPS of game stays constant. Background task impedes game play very little, if at all.

In practice Intel style...
FPS drops off as background task causes CPU usage to drop to almost 0%. Game play seriously impeded.

Result AMD style...
You FRAG everyone.

Result Intel style...
P4 DualCore received headshot from X2!


OK, I know. That's one sweeping judgement. But the fact remains that in this (naff) test the FPS of the Intel box drops by about 10FPS every 20mins or so, presumably by a background task restarting or something.


Discuss...


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<b>"Ambition got ahead of adhesion"</b>
<i>Martin Brundle</i>
 
Ok, they have done some software updates since HT used to be much slower in SQL..

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.aspx?i=2291&p=21" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.aspx?i=2291&p=21</A>
<A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000280" target="_new">http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000280</A>
Nice links, Intel Xeons got raped by AMD Opteron :lol:

Check <A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/articles/reviews/quadopteron/ff2_quad.gif" target="_new">this one</A>.. :lol:

And those Opterons are single core.
 
Those tests are fairly old though..

>Nice links, Intel Xeons got raped by AMD Opteron

I never claimed anything else did I ? :)
But HT does tend to help for server workloads, rather than hurt, if its only a patch on a wooden leg.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
intel definately THROTTLES down when reaches 69 C or so and cools back down on lower clock... when it reaches normal temeperatures it throttles up again to full. So can we conclude that the cooling on intel is totally inadequate and cannot keep up with the dual core monster. Throttling=emergency_or_BADCOOLING
 
@ p4 man...

Agree that this test cannot say anything about the stability of the cpu's. But as I said It can give some hints on what issues you have to be on the look out for on either platform.

I still find it concerning that the intel one has had ad many mishaps as it has... It would be in the best interest to find out what went wrong in each of the cases :).

I'm curious on how you harden a cpu??? Redundancy inside the chip or sumthing?

Still does it have a place in computers meant for us ordinary people?

As you also said It would be nice to know of how much influence eg: cosmic particles has on pc's generally. (I hope that I can explain 99 / 100 crashes on my pc...) :)

So we agree on power / heat issues :).

IMO the original test equipment made for a valid test. It was not the same but as close as it could get. If they would have had like 10 of each pc running it would have been a much better attempt at measuring platform stability. (note platform stability).

Agree that if youre only test the cpu you would have to exclude as many other ways of an error to pop up...

PS: I meant offcourse CCD's and win 3.11. Been a looooong time ago 😀

PPS: Hubble would stand out too much in my backyard soooo ...
 
Throttling won't reduce the CPU usage percentage, though. The cores will still be running at 100%, just slower. Ultimately I don't think we can tell if it's throttling or not. However, looking at the results the P4 is putting in and at the current temp (less than 68 degrees), I'd say it wasn't throttling anymore.

That dip in CPU usage has to be when benchmarks restart or something.

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<b>"Ambition got ahead of adhesion"</b>
<i>Martin Brundle</i>
 
I sort of disagree that the Pentium840EE is throttling.

When you take a look at the 840EE's CPU usage & allocated memory, you'll notice that every time the cpu load goes down, the size of allocated memory increases for a moment. I think that shows that the 840EE is accessing something and getting data from it.

Also, when you take a look at the X2's cpu usage youll notice that during 5 to 9 AM it also has spikes in the graph that resemble the 840EE's. During that time there was an error displayed on AMD's screen, which I imagine was caused by LAME or WinRAR failing resulting in only 3threads running during 5-9AM. During that time the AMD X2 encoded 70min of DivX, which is the same amount the X2 encoded in 60HRS.

I would say that it showed there is a PROBLEM with the priority of DivX encoding , as others have been suggesting.
 
>I'm curious on how you harden a cpu??? Redundancy inside the
>chip or sumthing?

Can be done in many ways or a combination of them. Now note my limited knowledge on the subject is related to image sensors, and the idea there is not to avoid such elements from causing a glitch (on the contrary, quite often the idea is indeed to detect those elements, and make 'pictures' of them), but rather to ensure the sensor keeps working even when being bombarded by high energy neutrons or alpha particles over many years.

For cpu's here on earth, I doubt the problem is that these chips would get killed by this, the issue is rather avoiding bitflips/errors/glitches when they do get hit by such an element.

I'll try and answer the question though; building in redundancy is indeed the most important thing. This is already done to some extend: cache is nowadays always protected by ECC, mostly for this very reason. (BTW, Suns UltraSparc II did not have ECC protected CPU cache, and did exhibit abnormal high crash rates, again, almost certainly because of this, so its not unreal).

There are also circuit engineering techniques that reduce sensitivity to radiation, but I am unsure how many of these are applicable for CPU's, as some of them would directly affect clockablilty I think. For image sensors, using higher voltages, higher capacitance helps. Selective reworking of ciritical paths by increasing the size of the 'wires'. None of these seem like good idea's for a high end cpu, so I guess its not strange 486's and the like are still used for aerospace applications.

Doing some googling on the subject I also found out that SOI would help (well, certainly NOT for cmos image sensors LOL), certain forms of doping of the silicon, and even special solder with lower radioactive isotopes.

The main thing however, is making your critical paths wider than necessary and having higher voltages (bigger difference between 1 and O). An 840EE or X2 is therefore not likely a spaceworthy cpu 😀

>Still does it have a place in computers meant for us
>ordinary people?

Hard to say. I would guess so. As process nodes shrink further, transistors shrink, voltages keep dropping and frequencies go up and transistor count goes through the roof, the sensitivity of these chips for radiation would also grow exponentially. I have seen a study where they tested Pentiums for their space worthyness, and the Pentium II was already 10x as critical as the Pentium I for gamma particles.

So yes, I think this is becoming a concern although I would worry far more about this happening to RAM modules than to the CPU.

>As you also said It would be nice to know of how much
>influence eg: cosmic particles has on pc's generally. (I
>hope that I can explain 99 / 100 crashes on my pc...) :)

If you where running zOS or Nonstop kernels, maybe.. but with windows and 200 third party drivers,.. nah, I don't think they account for 99% of the crashes yet :)

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
I think farcry just crashed on the Intel. Never mind looks like it may have finished a loop or they minamized it. If it finished a loop that was the first time i have seen either machine at the precise time a loop closed.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Topweasel on 06/10/05 08:38 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
Nah, I think they minimised FarCry to switch NICs. Check the chart, NIC activity has started again.

Mmm, think someone reads these forums....


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<b>"Ambition got ahead of adhesion"</b>
<i>Martin Brundle</i>
 
I agree with most that as a home user 1 game plus one heavy application and maybe a few small applications are about all a home user is going to use. As for a busines user, well the price of the dual socket Opteron boards is pretty good and the 275 are priced within reason for any workstation or server. 2 dual core Opterons are VERY fast and will blow away any dual XEON system and likely all quad XEON systems. The thing is a quad and even dual XEON is pretty expensive.

HP is sampling a 32 way Opteron box that will pretty much beat anything on the market. They seem pretty excitted about (as they should). It should be released fairly soon.

Also AMD Zone has gotten their Athlon64 X2 4800+ to 3Ghz on air cooling. It can not run SuperPi at this speed though, but they can likely get it stable at about 2.90-2.95Ghz. That would be a VERY impressive system to say the least. Imagine that thing running in a VappoChill LS system clocked at 3.2Ghz or faster.
 
>HP is sampling a 32 way Opteron box that will pretty much
>beat anything on the market.

Do you have any inside information on this, or just read about it on the INQ ? If you do, mind telling me if its actually a 16 or 32 *socket* system ? What chipset does it use, or how else do they solve cache cohereny traffic problems ? its not like hypertransport has enough bandwith to poperly cope with cache coherency traffic with more than 4 sockets, let alone 16 or 32..

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
I think I heard somewhere that Iwill were putting together an 8 or 16 socket machine. They were using some sort of bridging chip to join two groups of sockets together.

Don't remember where I saw it, though...

Edit: Something like this maybe. Cool, anyway!

<A HREF="http://www.iwill.net/product_imgs/90/H8501_Diagram_Large2.jpg" target="_new">Iwill 8 Socket Pic</A>

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<b>"Ambition got ahead of adhesion"</b>
<i>Martin Brundle</i>
 
I will had a Daughter board design that had basically very little more the HT links on the main bard and quad sockets on each Daughter board. The nice thing is that this allows the user to just replace the Daughterboards with new ones once the Socket F (thats the serverone with 1200+ pins right?) comes out. The standard Full ATX size main board would support 4 of these Duaghter boards so your looking at 32 cores and 16 CPUs.
 
The setup will be very much like any SUN/HP/IBM multi CPU systems, where multiple CPU cards are connected via a backplane. Obviously efficiencies go down (look at sun servers that need hundreds of CPU to keep up with the likes of IBM with only 64 CPUs). Remember though that on this type of big iron, cache coherency is not that important due
to the fact that most enterprise applications are split into independent processes (not threads) that do not rely on each other. I.e. if two people are entering a Sales Order there is no information they need to share that needs to reside in memory all the locking type stuff is handles by the database.
Also these servers tend to run multiple applications that do not run in their own memory spaces. This is where the OS scheduler comes in.
In fact most of these servers are logically splitt into multiple servers anyway, right down to partial CPUs, i.e. one logical server can have 1.5 CPUs allocated to it.
The whole thread this people mention is wrong anyway.
THG is running 4 independent processes not threads.
Threads are kicked off by a process, i.e. they run in the same memory space and results from each thread are passed back to the process, hence require cache coherency.
On a server you would probably schedule the Divx job on another machine or at a different time, so as not to slow down the other 3 higher priority jobs.

Run this particular test on 2 way dual core machines and you will see a different story, i.e. the AMD may just lag a little behind in Divix (if it does favour Intel)
If you were to run a multithreaded renderer with 4 threads (not processes) all with equal priority (probably a better stress test), HT may well show an improvement in the total number of executions run over a certain amount of time, but each execution on the AMD may be quicker.

E.g. 4 Frames are rendered, one per thread
Lets assume that the renderer uses standard FP, the intel may take 10s to render a single thread, two threads with out HT will also take 10s, given that HT does not give 100% improvement, lets use the often Quoted 20% improvment with HT,
So a 20% improvement might will give you 2.4 theads in 10s,
so .24 threads a second.

Now take the AMD chip which may take 8s to render a thread (assuming 20% higher performance for FP). Two cores mean 8s for two threads or .25 threads a second. Not much in it really, what however if the 20% improvement with HT was not possible, the difference would be much greater.