SirGCal
Distinguished
- Apr 2, 2010
- 310
- 0
- 18,780
[citation][nom]milktea[/nom]I hope everything is fine with you SirGCal (with regards to your medical issue).[/citation]
Honestly, we're still in the hospital. I'm typing this up on the Hospital's WiFi. But you sit here so long with nothing but really bad TV every day, I'm excited to be able to work honestly.
[citation][nom]milktea[/nom]And I didn't mean to tick you off in anyway. Just trying to open up a discussion and understand each other's POV from the limited words. But I believe our discussion have gone way out to who knows where.As you can tell I'm not so much of a DIYer. I'll do some DIY, but I rather buy a solution.At any rate, you mentioned that you 'would never even suggest a NAS' to the average home user? I failed to see your point there. I mean even printers are going WiFi. Why can't external storage becomes network access? And why would Buffalo, Seagate, Dlink, IoMega, etc... build single&dual HDD network attached storage?[/citation]
Obviously they can sell them or they wouldn't build them. But also, it's how they sell them and why that is what they're making their money on.
I'll break it down as quickly as I can. People hear more industry speak sneak out into the public world and in the computer/IT industry, this is more then probably anywhere else. NAS is a really broad and simple term. But honestly, until very recently, they were almost always some form of server farm drive systems of MAN?Y drives, single to raid, but all in one box accessed by other systems directly. The point was basically maintenance. IF the bulk of your hard drives are in one spot, it's just easier to go to when there's a problem vs tracking down which of thousands of servers it might be in.
Over the years they've gotten smaller and there are actually reasons for a home user to get some, even single (2-drive) units. But as I said before, not for the example you listed. IF you even had a cellphone that would pull from it at least, that would be slightly more useful. But honestly, for one computer, it's just a waste to spend any money on a NAS box. With just one computer, just put two drives in your computer and mirror them and you have truly simple raid solutions that will work perfectly. And if you still wanted to share stuff with a few other devices at home, just share the folder. Very simple and really easy to do and again, no one's special 'firmware' to run everything properly. Just (ANY) working OS. The home NAS is about convenience and nothing more. But it does this with dependence on minimalistic hardware/software. The nicer boxes like ones in this review, use actual hardware combinations but still often make their own ROM based software which all too often tends to be really stripped down and buggy and hard to use even, from an administrator side. Obviously they get better over time but they are still quite pricy, hence the whole point of my original post to begin with. The two-drive NASs like you're referring to do it with much less hardware. No more then an interface chip with minimal capabilities and software. If you had the family music collection on it and a house full of kids always accessing it, then it might make more sense. But honestly more often then not, they are more hastle then they are worth. I personally wouldn't even look toward a NAS for myself or any of my family members or kids, unless they needed like a 4+ drive setup (RAID 5/5+spare). OR, possibly if they have all laptops and no desktops. That changes the game a bit too. But even then, a plug-in USB setup is still more reliable and faster unless you're going to use it for off-line time active backups from all over the house.
[citation][nom]milktea[/nom] I doubt any businesses would buy these single/dual HDD NAS. So they must be marketed towards home users, isn't that correct? That means there has to be some advantages to bring these tiny NAS to home users.Are you saying that these manufacturers made a wrong marketing decisions?Oh, and sorry, I didn't mean NAS+SAN. What I meant was NAS+DAS, direct attached.And yes, I know WiFi connection is horrible. That's why I'm waiting for Patriot to put a GbEthernet port on their Gaunlet Node. But even Ethernet cannot match the speed the the USB3/eSata (DAS). That is why I'm hoping for a NAS+DAS combo. The best of both worlds in one tiny package.[/citation]
Actually, no. To the speed question. Yes USB3 is faster then even wired network, theoretically. But it's only as fast as the slowest part which in this case is the hard drive (actually the RAID controller in this case will slow it down a tiny bit more too for mirroring, at least writes). Neither one is even going to come CLOSE. The drive could easily saturate WiFi, but no way wired. Not without a very fast array. But then again, if speed is that important, and it's too much to fit into the server, then it's a SAN we're looking at or at least a high-drive count NAS array just to get the drive speeds up. But to get 4G+ type drive access speeds, that's SAN only territory to get arrays big enough to do it (or special SSD arrays for in-box projects, but they will generally be rather low overall total sizes considering the drive counts to hit that level. There are also a few specialty pieces, again, relatively small and with very large pricetags). I don't even know of any add-on external USB/eSata boxes that can actually produce that type of speed from drives they'll hold to be honest. They might exist if some of the bigger ones can reliably handle SSD drives. On that one I honestly don't know if they exist or not. There just isn't really a need out there though to be truthful. Even myself as an over-insanely-extreme gamer, hard core home servers, etc. I'd have no use for something with that throughput. That's pretty much huge business level stuff.
And as I said before, there is a market for the 2 drive home systems, but a lot of people I think use them when they have no need to just because they heard of a NAS and they have to have one. IF I had a buck for every time I've been asked which one to buy just from people at work alone, I could buy one hell of a nice car. My first question always is 'why do you need a NAS' and just about every time I give them a better solution for what they were trying to do. Sometimes, it would be the right choice. But in reality, especially with the cheaper units, they are likely giving themselves more headaches vs doing themselves favors. Some of em work fine but almost always, you can get the same thing in an external USB format enclosure cheaper anyhow just attached to a PC. But still, stick two drives into your working desktop and build a simple mirrored setup is your cheapest option. And with that being the only thing you have to access it, when it's off, who cares about the array! A lot of people just don't realize they can do that easily with their boxes. Or they don't WANT to, that's a different reason. Then external boxes would be more preferred but still often more desirable then a whole separate NAS.
As with anything, it's all about the details. But even without a 'skillset' for DIY, don't be afraid of at least buiing two capable drives and an external case capable of doing it and sticking it on your PC. Honestly, if you just make sure the enclosure will either do drive mirroring or support RAID 1 and you don't get the few WD Green drives that crap out in RAID (though RAID 1 usually is never the issue there), it would be pretty hard to go wrong. And almost any of those driveless cases, you'll need to do the drive homework anyhow. And hey, maybe the NASs have come down. I haven't looked in a bit. But even still, it's another point of failure/trouble that just, especially for your example, just isn't necessary.
I've given you a lot of data. Some of it very complicated I know, but I tried to bring this down to laymen as much as possible. Just remember one simple thing; don't add a point of failure that you don't have a benefit from. Going NAS is a point of failure (honestly, even for a printer. it's just 'wireless' so it's convenient. And for myself with half a dozen computers and multiple laptops that use the printer, sure it makes perfect sense too. But in your case, it MIGHT make a tiny bit of sense if you want your printer in another room or something but other then that, it would just be easier and simpler basically to run a USB cable from the printer to the computer.
I know you've heard this before (at least I'd put $ on that you have) but there's an old saying that just always seems to apply nearly everywhere. KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid. Every time I realize I'm trying to over-think a problem, that comes to mind. Step back and re-evaluate. Is there a simpler, easier and more sensible way to do it? Probably every 2 in 3 times there is and I went right by it. But in this case, why wait for it. If you have the need for backup/storage/mirroring setup now, do it. Don't wait for someone to make something you really don't need just to get something more complicated and expensive then what you need to do what you want.
Honestly, we're still in the hospital. I'm typing this up on the Hospital's WiFi. But you sit here so long with nothing but really bad TV every day, I'm excited to be able to work honestly.
[citation][nom]milktea[/nom]And I didn't mean to tick you off in anyway. Just trying to open up a discussion and understand each other's POV from the limited words. But I believe our discussion have gone way out to who knows where.As you can tell I'm not so much of a DIYer. I'll do some DIY, but I rather buy a solution.At any rate, you mentioned that you 'would never even suggest a NAS' to the average home user? I failed to see your point there. I mean even printers are going WiFi. Why can't external storage becomes network access? And why would Buffalo, Seagate, Dlink, IoMega, etc... build single&dual HDD network attached storage?[/citation]
Obviously they can sell them or they wouldn't build them. But also, it's how they sell them and why that is what they're making their money on.
I'll break it down as quickly as I can. People hear more industry speak sneak out into the public world and in the computer/IT industry, this is more then probably anywhere else. NAS is a really broad and simple term. But honestly, until very recently, they were almost always some form of server farm drive systems of MAN?Y drives, single to raid, but all in one box accessed by other systems directly. The point was basically maintenance. IF the bulk of your hard drives are in one spot, it's just easier to go to when there's a problem vs tracking down which of thousands of servers it might be in.
Over the years they've gotten smaller and there are actually reasons for a home user to get some, even single (2-drive) units. But as I said before, not for the example you listed. IF you even had a cellphone that would pull from it at least, that would be slightly more useful. But honestly, for one computer, it's just a waste to spend any money on a NAS box. With just one computer, just put two drives in your computer and mirror them and you have truly simple raid solutions that will work perfectly. And if you still wanted to share stuff with a few other devices at home, just share the folder. Very simple and really easy to do and again, no one's special 'firmware' to run everything properly. Just (ANY) working OS. The home NAS is about convenience and nothing more. But it does this with dependence on minimalistic hardware/software. The nicer boxes like ones in this review, use actual hardware combinations but still often make their own ROM based software which all too often tends to be really stripped down and buggy and hard to use even, from an administrator side. Obviously they get better over time but they are still quite pricy, hence the whole point of my original post to begin with. The two-drive NASs like you're referring to do it with much less hardware. No more then an interface chip with minimal capabilities and software. If you had the family music collection on it and a house full of kids always accessing it, then it might make more sense. But honestly more often then not, they are more hastle then they are worth. I personally wouldn't even look toward a NAS for myself or any of my family members or kids, unless they needed like a 4+ drive setup (RAID 5/5+spare). OR, possibly if they have all laptops and no desktops. That changes the game a bit too. But even then, a plug-in USB setup is still more reliable and faster unless you're going to use it for off-line time active backups from all over the house.
[citation][nom]milktea[/nom] I doubt any businesses would buy these single/dual HDD NAS. So they must be marketed towards home users, isn't that correct? That means there has to be some advantages to bring these tiny NAS to home users.Are you saying that these manufacturers made a wrong marketing decisions?Oh, and sorry, I didn't mean NAS+SAN. What I meant was NAS+DAS, direct attached.And yes, I know WiFi connection is horrible. That's why I'm waiting for Patriot to put a GbEthernet port on their Gaunlet Node. But even Ethernet cannot match the speed the the USB3/eSata (DAS). That is why I'm hoping for a NAS+DAS combo. The best of both worlds in one tiny package.[/citation]
Actually, no. To the speed question. Yes USB3 is faster then even wired network, theoretically. But it's only as fast as the slowest part which in this case is the hard drive (actually the RAID controller in this case will slow it down a tiny bit more too for mirroring, at least writes). Neither one is even going to come CLOSE. The drive could easily saturate WiFi, but no way wired. Not without a very fast array. But then again, if speed is that important, and it's too much to fit into the server, then it's a SAN we're looking at or at least a high-drive count NAS array just to get the drive speeds up. But to get 4G+ type drive access speeds, that's SAN only territory to get arrays big enough to do it (or special SSD arrays for in-box projects, but they will generally be rather low overall total sizes considering the drive counts to hit that level. There are also a few specialty pieces, again, relatively small and with very large pricetags). I don't even know of any add-on external USB/eSata boxes that can actually produce that type of speed from drives they'll hold to be honest. They might exist if some of the bigger ones can reliably handle SSD drives. On that one I honestly don't know if they exist or not. There just isn't really a need out there though to be truthful. Even myself as an over-insanely-extreme gamer, hard core home servers, etc. I'd have no use for something with that throughput. That's pretty much huge business level stuff.
And as I said before, there is a market for the 2 drive home systems, but a lot of people I think use them when they have no need to just because they heard of a NAS and they have to have one. IF I had a buck for every time I've been asked which one to buy just from people at work alone, I could buy one hell of a nice car. My first question always is 'why do you need a NAS' and just about every time I give them a better solution for what they were trying to do. Sometimes, it would be the right choice. But in reality, especially with the cheaper units, they are likely giving themselves more headaches vs doing themselves favors. Some of em work fine but almost always, you can get the same thing in an external USB format enclosure cheaper anyhow just attached to a PC. But still, stick two drives into your working desktop and build a simple mirrored setup is your cheapest option. And with that being the only thing you have to access it, when it's off, who cares about the array! A lot of people just don't realize they can do that easily with their boxes. Or they don't WANT to, that's a different reason. Then external boxes would be more preferred but still often more desirable then a whole separate NAS.
As with anything, it's all about the details. But even without a 'skillset' for DIY, don't be afraid of at least buiing two capable drives and an external case capable of doing it and sticking it on your PC. Honestly, if you just make sure the enclosure will either do drive mirroring or support RAID 1 and you don't get the few WD Green drives that crap out in RAID (though RAID 1 usually is never the issue there), it would be pretty hard to go wrong. And almost any of those driveless cases, you'll need to do the drive homework anyhow. And hey, maybe the NASs have come down. I haven't looked in a bit. But even still, it's another point of failure/trouble that just, especially for your example, just isn't necessary.
I've given you a lot of data. Some of it very complicated I know, but I tried to bring this down to laymen as much as possible. Just remember one simple thing; don't add a point of failure that you don't have a benefit from. Going NAS is a point of failure (honestly, even for a printer. it's just 'wireless' so it's convenient. And for myself with half a dozen computers and multiple laptops that use the printer, sure it makes perfect sense too. But in your case, it MIGHT make a tiny bit of sense if you want your printer in another room or something but other then that, it would just be easier and simpler basically to run a USB cable from the printer to the computer.
I know you've heard this before (at least I'd put $ on that you have) but there's an old saying that just always seems to apply nearly everywhere. KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid. Every time I realize I'm trying to over-think a problem, that comes to mind. Step back and re-evaluate. Is there a simpler, easier and more sensible way to do it? Probably every 2 in 3 times there is and I went right by it. But in this case, why wait for it. If you have the need for backup/storage/mirroring setup now, do it. Don't wait for someone to make something you really don't need just to get something more complicated and expensive then what you need to do what you want.
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