System Builder Marathon, June 2012: $2000 Performance PC

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]vikjha[/nom]I'm sorry for not starting a new thread but i wanted this to get read by a larger amount of people for a more rounded view... (and since this article is about value and i'm a broke ass grad student it sorta makes sense)I've been reading Tom's for about 6 months now planning on building my own gaming PC (i only own a PS3... i'm sorry for consoles holding back comp graphics guys)... basically because i wanted to experience amazing graphics and when rumors surfaced that the new PS would have a amd6670 i was pissed.the latest rumor http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka [...] u-2gb-ram/is much cooler... i'm happy to hear that it may be a 7900AMD... only clocked at 800mghz (for overheating protection i guess?)... when it comes out in holiday 2013... it will be what... 1 generation behind maybe 2? for a person like me, who jus wants the most beautiful graphics at 1080p... if this were true do you guys think it will compete with PC graphics for a couple years at least? I could really use the extra money for some traveling.. but i don't know if 800mghz clock would seriously stunt it (not to mention the x86 processor fusion thingy) ... i think i could get by for a year and a half with last of us, tomb raider (i hope u guys get much more amazing graphics and not a shit port)... thanks in advance for ur opinions[/citation]

On the desktop, the 6670 can't even do 720p with settings maxed on in most of the more intensive games nowadays, but not only can consoles usually do more with the same hardware than a desktop (more efficient and optimized code and such), but the graphics, even if it really is based on a 6670, would be just that... Based on the 6670, not exactly the 6670. There's also a rumor that these consoles would have an APU and the APU and modified 6670 would be inf CF. Take this all with a pile of salt considering that it's just rumor.

 

[vikjha]

Thanks for responding Blazorthon.... Yeah, i had heard about the asymmetrical CF rumor a few months ago... even with customization... after reading here for a few months (I still know nothing) i still wasn't satisfied with the plans for the PS4...

I'm more interested on your thoughts of this "Liverpool" Apu (x86 @3.2ghz w/Tahiti@800mhz) mentioned in the Forbes link i posted... i'd like to think that it may end up being able to satisfy my needs... but coming to this sight showed me how ignorant i truly am... and i know that there are a lot of factors that i wouldn't even be able think about that people in this community would be knowledgeable enough comment on...

 

[vikjha]

consider it a thought experiment

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]vikjha[/nom]Thanks for responding Blazorthon.... Yeah, i had heard about the asymmetrical CF rumor a few months ago... even with customization... after reading here for a few months (I still know nothing) i still wasn't satisfied with the plans for the PS4... I'm more interested on your thoughts of this "Liverpool" Apu (x86 @3.2ghz w/Tahiti@800mhz) mentioned in the Forbes link i posted... i'd like to think that it may end up being able to satisfy my needs... but coming to this sight showed me how ignorant i truly am... and i know that there are a lot of factors that i wouldn't even be able think about that people in this community would be knowledgeable enough comment on...[/citation]

The 7950 has Tahiti with 4 out of the 32 block disabled and the 7950's reference frequency is 800MHz... So, something like that in an APU? Not likely. The chip would need to be huge and would suck up a lot of power all in one place. It would also mean that AMD would need to die shrink a CPU down to 28nm. If they do this, then maybe a Pitcairn would be used in a high performance APU system... However, even going beyond Cape Verde in an APU sounds unlikely. We've already seen how stuff like Big Fermi and other such chips have big costs to manufacture and that's not a situation that AMD likes at all. TSMC's seemingly poor yields also would not go well with such a chip. Such a chip would need to be between GK110 and Tahiti in size and although Tahiti is fairly small (it's even smaller then Cayman), such an APU would still be huge. It would probably be several times larger than Llano or Trinity's quad core dies despite being a moderate die shrink (about a 30.5% die shrink from 32nm instead of the usual about 50%).

I'm not saying that it can't be done... However, it's unlikely.

 

[vikjha]

Blazorthon... good call on the die shrink... that is actually part of the rumor...

"What I have got is a very comprehensive document on the specifications of the PlayStation 4. Thus, the PlayStation 4 AMD Fusion APU get with the CPU and GPU sit together on the same chip. The code name for this chip is 'Liverpool' According developers would chip in "real talk" over 10x longer than that of the PS3 can. It would be a quad-core AMD x86 CPU running at 3.2GHz which contain the code name 'Steamroller' know. The GPU is an ATI r10xx at 800MHz with 1843 GFLOPS, this is code-named "Tahiti." This chip is also include on AMD Radeon HD 7970, both chips (CPU and GPU) are 28nm processors."

http://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psx-sense.nl%2F89207%2Fexclusief-talloze-informatie-over-de-playstation-4-inclusief-specificaties%2F (the link)

while i could easily see Sony (specially with their financial trouble) pulling an Apple and going for highest profit... i also have some hopes that they might be willing to try something crazy and go for a loss on their console (which is pretty traditional for PS i believe) and make up the money long term...

Either way these are rumors... but it's just a much more appealing one than the previous... it's def what i'd hope they'd try for...

 

[vikjha]

if you're wondering why i'm so loyal it's only cuz Naughty Dog is one of my fav developers and i feel like id buy their system anyways just for there IPs and end up having to build a comp for everything else... thats $$$

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]vikjha[/nom]Blazorthon... good call on the die shrink... that is actually part of the rumor... "What I have got is a very comprehensive document on the specifications of the PlayStation 4. Thus, the PlayStation 4 AMD Fusion APU get with the CPU and GPU sit together on the same chip. The code name for this chip is 'Liverpool' According developers would chip in "real talk" over 10x longer than that of the PS3 can. It would be a quad-core AMD x86 CPU running at 3.2GHz which contain the code name 'Steamroller' know. The GPU is an ATI r10xx at 800MHz with 1843 GFLOPS, this is code-named "Tahiti." This chip is also include on AMD Radeon HD 7970, both chips (CPU and GPU) are 28nm processors."http://translate.google.nl/transla [...] icaties%2F (the link)while i could easily see Sony (specially with their financial trouble) pulling an Apple and going for highest profit... i also have some hopes that they might be willing to try something crazy and go for a loss on their console (which is pretty traditional for PS i believe) and make up the money long term...Either way these are rumors... but it's just a much more appealing one than the previous... it's def what i'd hope they'd try for...[/citation]

I can't really see Steamroller being out any time soon. We don't even have Piledriver out much yet and Steamroller is Piledriver's successor. A Tahiti APU would have a huge chip and I don't see a point to it when it only beats Pitcairn substantially when it has higher frequencies than 800MHz (1GHz to 1.1GHz Pitcairn will match 800MHz Tahiti with ease in most gaming situations). Pitcairn would be a far better idea for this, but it would still be a large chip that could be around Tahiti's size. Then there's also the power usage... Consoles intended to be used with TVs aren't the most power efficient nor the least power-consuming gaming devices out there, but a Tahiti APU could consume as much as 40% to 50% more power than Tahiti does.

Tahiti's not power-hungry for a GPU of its performance, but an APU made from it would probably use about as much power as a GTX 480. Sure, it's not the end of the world, but it could be difficult to cool with air coolers and I think that we've all had just about enough of seeing consoles die from overheating or bursting capacitors and other such fallacies of seemingly poor design. Consoles just don't have great airflow and a Tahiti APU would undoubtedly need a lot of airflow and heatsink fin area or maybe a good water cooler.

A Tahiti APU for something like this only makes sense to me if it is intended to replace the professional/server version of the PS3. A professional version could have a better cooler without the increased cost being a problem and it would actually benefit from using a Tahiti. A consumer version would probably be better off with a Pitcairn APU instead of a Tahiti APU. It could have the full Pitcairn's silicon, but only use it like the 7850's cut-down Pitcairn, drastically improving yield (if you don't have to worry about a few blocks not working, then many of the chips that would fail defect binning would now pass if their defects are not very bad). A console, with their highly optimized code, could use even a 7850 for incredible quality, especially considering that consoles are intended to be used with TVs that have a resolution of up to 1080p.

 

[vikjha]

Yeah, while cursing out Sony in my head for the 6670 (7670) rumor and after reading on this site for a few weeks at this point, i too had come to the conclusion that maybe tahiti wouldn't work in a console due to overheating, power (specially since there was talk of sony trying to go more "green") and price.

I personally had thought Pitcairn would be perfect as well (obviously after reading tom's articles on it) in terms of performance, power, and since the console is due late 2013 or early 2014 (Sony doesn't buy on new egg) even price. I would have been and still would be easily satisfied with a 7800...

in fact, one of my major dilemmas in planning/saving for a build was whether to spend extra money on a 7900 or 680 or just going with a 7870... that was of course before i heard about the 670. i know some people have said the 670 hasnt been reviewed as well on other sites with a longer list of games or whatever but an extra 50 for it over the 7870 seemed worth it (even though ive heard the 7870 OCs amazing... i still don't really understand this stuff)...

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]vikjha[/nom]Yeah, while cursing out Sony in my head for the 6670 (7670) rumor and after reading on this site for a few weeks at this point, i too had come to the conclusion that maybe tahiti wouldn't work in a console due to overheating, power (specially since there was talk of sony trying to go more "green") and price.I personally had thought Pitcairn would be perfect as well (obviously after reading tom's articles on it) in terms of performance, power, and since the console is due late 2013 or early 2014 (Sony doesn't buy on new egg) even price. I would have been and still would be easily satisfied with a 7800...in fact, one of my major dilemmas in planning/saving for a build was whether to spend extra money on a 7900 or 680 or just going with a 7870... that was of course before i heard about the 670. i know some people have said the 670 hasnt been reviewed as well on other sites with a longer list of games or whatever but an extra 50 for it over the 7870 seemed worth it (even though ive heard the 7870 OCs amazing... i still don't really understand this stuff)...[/citation]

The 7870 is a good card for overclocking, but unlike the 7850 and 7950, the 7870 is already much closer to it's limits. The 7850 and 7950 are probably the two best Radeon cards for overclocking. The 7870 is a little better than the 7850 at getting the highest performance (7850 is the better overclocker because it can hit much farther from its starting point than the 7870 even though the 7870 can get a slightly higher frequency and is slightly faster at the same frequency), but the 7950 and 7970 are totally on-par with each other and the 7950 can actually win against the 7970. The 7870 can overclock well, but not well enough to beat the GTX 670. The Radeon 7950 has a shot at that, but stock versus stock, the 7950 is hugely underclocked, so a lot of people overlook it's incredible overclocking performance.

Pitcairn is more ideal for this because it's performance is where it should be for excellent 1080p gaming and it has more reasonable size and power consumption. An IGP like the 7850's Pitcairn would have what I believe to be an ideal balance of performance, size, power consumption, and cost for a modern console. Give it 2GB of GDDR5 or better and be sure that the CPU can keep up and it would be great.

EDIT: Corrected grammatical mistake that made my third sentence contradict the earlier sentences and the truth.

 

[Guest]

Why not add a media creation/CAD/Do it all machine to the mix as well as really low end consumer machine?
The low end would be for runing quicken, the web "facebook" casual gaming, Hulu, NetFlix, and so on.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]giggleham[/nom]Why not add a media creation/CAD/Do it all machine to the mix as well as really low end consumer machine?The low end would be for runing quicken, the web "facebook" casual gaming, Hulu, NetFlix, and so on.[/citation]

Really low end can't get much more low end than this $500 computer minus the graphics unless you use older components. This is about the top performance for a computer of its cost for casual work; just throw in a $40 video card for casual gaming and you have a sub $350 powerhouse for regular workloads.

 

[Guest]

I think at this price category it is reasonable to assume people will end up using this machine for more than gaming alone. I personally would like to see more emphasis on the overall quality of the end result even if gaming is a usage focus for parts selection. A quality chassis is a must for me personally at any price point for aesthetic, thermal, and acoustic reasons. I'm sure most people spending 2K or more are willing to invest what it takes to design a balanced system. Including all performance metrics and overall presentation. A decent RAID 5 array isn't out of the question either.

Can a 2012 Corvette run down the comparable Porsche model in a straight line? Sure, but which car would you buy granted the price is similar? The one trick pony or the overall showstopper?

 

[Guest]

What do you guys think about this build that I am about to order

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/cgi-bin/ShoppingCart.asp

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]Robertkuro[/nom]What do you guys think about this build that I am about to order I'd]http://www.tigerdirect.ca/cgi-bin/ShoppingCart.asp[/citation]I'd take the Cadillac version of the Corvette, and have a car that's fun to drive, comfortable, and cheap to maintain.

 

[magikherbs]

Is it me or does the cpu cooler look like it is not level ?

Chances are the cpu and hsf are not. Plz lap the cpu and hsf and lets see 5ghz !

Considering how well it performed, I was surprised to see that the base on my Zalman CNPS12x was as uneven as it was. So I lapped it. hehe..

Its summer and I'm seeing winter time watercooled temps after the 2nd session. My PII x6 960T is also lapped. xD

pEACe

 

[quangluu96]

How about GTX 670 FTW? Similar performance to GTX 680 but allows 145% power limit.

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]magikherbs[/nom]Is it me or does the cpu cooler look like it is not level ?Chances are the cpu and hsf are not. Plz lap the cpu and hsf and lets see 5ghz ! Considering how well it performed, I was surprised to see that the base on my Zalman CNPS12x was as uneven as it was. So I lapped it. hehe..Its summer and I'm seeing winter time watercooled temps after the 2nd session. My PII x6 960T is also lapped. xDpEACe[/citation]There's absolutely no chance that a giveaway system built for longevity will ever get abused in that manner. You see, the only way to get a sizeable boost in frequency would be to add a huge boost in voltage. That kind of voltage increase burns out the processor in weeks or months, rather than a year to several years.

The temperature was adequate. Look at the thermal results. Lapping might help keep the temperature down at higher voltage levels, but read above. It's not going to happen.

The only way I know of to get the CPU to run at a higher frequency without that big voltage increase is to drop the temperature far below ambient. Doing so changes the properties of the silicon, making it a better semiconductor. LN2 is not going to happen in a daily-use system either. And refrigerator systems are too expensive for this build.