System Builder Marathon: Performance & Value

[neiroatopelcc]

[citation][nom]bounty[/nom]These challenges seem like they're getting to easy for the builders... I think it's time to raise the bar and see what they can do with 400$ :>It could be a special "recession" edition. Or we can start forcing them to add a monitor/speakers/keyboard/mouse into the equation. Now lets see what it really costs to game at 2500x1600.-Bounty (of 1680x1050 fame)[/citation]


Kinda a good idea, but perhaps make it the other way around? instead of having a budget and seeing how far you can get with it, have a target, and see how cheaply you can get there.
ie. archieve playable fps in farcry 2 @ 1920 as cheaply as possible or something like that.

 

[twizzlers123]

mine heats my room up some if its on for a while ..
i have alot of fans in my pc and one 200mm so it blows alot of air lol

 

[neiroatopelcc]

[citation][nom]twizzlers123[/nom]mine heats my room up some if its on for a while ..i have alot of fans in my pc and one 200mm so it blows alot of air lol[/citation]

I don't see how this is relevant, but nice I suppose.
When I have my best friend visiting me with his pc, and sometime another friend too, we're 3 people in a small room, and I'd have to put a fan at the door to get the heat out. 2 64nm c2d's @ 3.4ghz and a 45nm @ 3.8ghz just produce heat - and the hd48x0 and 8800gtx do burn electricity too - but that's hardly a surprise.

 

[neiroatopelcc]

Oh and another irrelevant something about heat. I've moved my cloth drying rack into my computer room, as it'd dry much faster in there than in my bed or livingroom

 

[Guest]

The TH crew should build a $1250 PC and we (the forum) should get to vote on the parts for another $1250 PC, and they should go head to head.

 

[Jake_Barnes]

The TH crew should build a $1250 PC and we (the forum) should get to vote on the parts for another $1250 PC, and they should go head to head.

Hell, I vote for that!

 

[neiroatopelcc]

Interesting system you have there. I'm particularily interested in knowing where you got your harddrives? I've just built two imaging servers (wds) this week, and the biggest 10k rpm drives I could find were 400gb seagate and hitachi models - and they're not in end user retail in the first place. The biggest consumer drive of that speed is the velociraptor - which everybody and their grandma know are limited to 300gb. In short - your drives don't exist. How likely is it the rest does?

 

[Guest]

Truely honest mistake...not lying i didnt mean to type that...i have 1x300GB 10kRPM and 2x1TB 7.2K RPM's..srry for the mistake...the rest truely does exist...i got it all through newegg at a relatively low price...around $750 total (with a little extra money for the wrong heatsink and ram...)

 

[sojrner]

hahahahahahaha... 2 bluray burners with that system for under 750?! Even cheapest that is more than half your budget right there. LOL. "honest mistake"? Reality is that if you were someone that actually had that hardware (which you are not) and went through all the pain to create and config it would be quick enough on the uptake to NOT make that egregious error and misrepresent such a system. The amount of time put in to it just to keep it running (3Ghz phenom! lol) would necessitate an intimate knowledge of that hardware which you plainly do not have.

Next time think up a better story mate, methinks this try is fail.

 

[niknikktm]

It seems to me that over the last 18 months or more Toms Hardware has focused almost exclusively on the gaming community. Almost every article, review, or "how-to" column is directed at gamers. I have nothing against gaming. I'm a bit of a gamer myself. It's just that it used to be that you folks would have a decent variety of subjects for different applications. Now it's 90% gaming.

You know there is a very large group of users and tech's that would like to focus on other uses such as HTPC's and media center issues. It's no secret that the U.S. home electronics market is being black balled by the Japanese manufacturers when it comes to optical disc home video recording components. You can purchase a large variety of high definition Blu-Ray recorders (even with internal HDD's!) in Japan and have been able to for years, but there are no plans for U.S. release of ANY of these models. Even standard DVD's recorders are no longer available with internal HDD's and ATSC tuners, but they can be had as close as Canada. Just check out sony.com then compare the products available at sony.ca and you will see what I am talking about. Try the same for Pioneer and LG and others. Apparently we are all pirates in this country, as far as the manufacturers are concerned.

This has created an even larger group of enthusiasts that would like to build their own HTPC's with high definition Blu-Ray recording ability. It's truly a hot button issue yet you guys have not even once addressed the issue in ANY way, shape, or form.

I think it's high time (actually PAST time) that you at least make an attempt to try to address the interests of someone other than gamers once in a while. I'm not talking about a quick review on an HTPC enclosure once a year or so (do a search of Toms for "HTPC" and see how few hits you get), but rather something with a bit more substance that directly addresses the hot issues with media enthusiasts. A "Build This" article that addresses high definition recording would be of great interest to most of us.

Just throw us a bone once in a while will you?

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]niknikktm[/nom]I think it's high time (actually PAST time) that you at least make an attempt to try to address the interests of someone other than gamers once in a while. I'm not talking about a quick review on an HTPC enclosure once a year or so (do a search of Toms for "HTPC" and see how few hits you get), but rather something with a bit more substance that directly addresses the hot issues with media enthusiasts. A "Build This" article that addresses high definition recording would be of great interest to most of us.Just throw us a bone once in a while will you?[/citation]

I feel for you, but one problem is that the performance enthusiasts at Tom's completely disaggree with the home theater guys about what an HTPC is supposed to be, and the people pulling the levers on this have the idea that an HTPC is nothing more than a low-power media player. The performance guys don't build those.

 

[neiroatopelcc]

I belong to the performance group I suppose, but why not just have two solutions then? one regular one - chris can do that in his sleep, and one with emphasis on whatever it is that the htpc nerds focus on. Formats, touchscreens, ease of use, whatever it is.

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]neiroatopelcc[/nom]I belong to the performance group I suppose, but why not just have two solutions then? one regular one - chris can do that in his sleep, and one with emphasis on whatever it is that the htpc nerds focus on. Formats, touchscreens, ease of use, whatever it is.[/citation]

Hey, I tried proposing that about a couple years ago and it didn't fly. You think I should try again?

 

[neiroatopelcc]

I think someone should. If you're the right guy to do so I can't say. But anyone who uses the talkback and ind is a best of media employee would probably be listened to, so go try. Just direct whomever is the decision maker to this thread, so they understand the issue

 

[neiroatopelcc]

*and is

 

[niknikktm]

I think that if you delve into it a bit you will find that it takes a performance machine to be able to stream and record real time 1080i or 1080p HD video to a HDD and subsequently author to Blu-Ray media. "Performance" has more than one benchmark. An HTPC capable of recording and authoring HD would not only take some muscle, but it also has to do it with tough restrictions on heat and noise dissipation.

It would very much qualify as a performance PC. If the folks here at T.H. truly do only think of a performance pc as a gaming machine, I guess then it's time they put down the games and take a look around. I've looked at dozens of HTPC forums and groups and I can tell you, trying to find a decent Blu-Ray, HD, HTPC build is tough to do.

 

[niknikktm]

....and yet it seems to be the number one request on HTPC "nerds" minds.

 

[sojrner]

...so... pack as much as you can for performance into the smallest form factor. How is that different than the (much more demanding on the GPU/CPU) gaming application (beyond form factor) exactly? Every graphics card review lately deals (at least in passing) with resolution that apply for HTPC comparison (as well as decoding stuff) and there have been quite a few articles here on the performance of GPUs and CPUs in HTPC applications. Beyond that it is finding form factors to do it with.

The reason it is "tough to do" is not that sites like Tom's don't cover it enough, but rather that manufacturers are only just not realizing the demand. The products are just not there yet. (for a home build; mobos, cases etc)

Not defending Tom's nor saying the idea is dumb, just that it is not as one-sided as it is made out to be.

 

[niknikktm]

It's not about cramming performance into a small form factor. A full ATX form factor is suitable for most of the middle and higher end HTPC cases. Space isn't much of an issue at all. And yes the graphics card reviews have dealt with "at least in passing" resolutions that apply to HTPC. Pretty much only "in passing" in fact. Throwing in a media bench mark isn't exactly addressing the issue.

There are plenty of hardware solutions out there as well. There just isn't anything from Tom's in quite some time that addresses this type of build and actually fits those pieces together. That was my main point. Tom's used to cover a broader variety of unthusiasts interests. That's not the case any longer as most of the articles and builds are predominantly aimed at the gaming sector with just a "passing" reference to media or other areas of interest. I would just like to see them get back to covering a broader variety of applications to suit the broader section of the enthusiasts out there. There's a large demographic of enthusiasts that are interested in more than just the gaming applications of PC hardware.

 

[sojrner]

Is there any application of hardware that a PC could not handle if it were designed for gaming?

What I mean is this: if you could do 60fps on Crysis @1680x1024 with all effects toggled on and cranked (ahem, hold the laughter) then is there any HTPC scenario that said PC could not handle if an HD tv tuner and a bluray player were added?

IMO the real difference comes in software. Which apps deliver the better experience. How can you get the most out of your hardware with the right OS and media software, etc... and that is (afaik) outside the scope of this site in its original incarnation.

but hey, maybe I'm the minority. No worries, if the focus switched to HTPC I would enjoy it equally. I like hardware and most related stuff. To me the far greater sin here at Tom's of late has been is gradual erosion of devotion to ANY particular group. (theater nut, shooter junker or any) Heck, their idea of the gaming community to reach is the so-called casual flash gamer. Wonder if the gaming PC's they review and build could handle bejeweled better?...

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]niknikktm[/nom]I think that if you delve into it a bit you will find that it takes a performance machine to be able to stream and record real time 1080i or 1080p HD video to a HDD and subsequently author to Blu-Ray media. "Performance" has more than one benchmark. An HTPC capable of recording and authoring HD would not only take some muscle, but it also has to do it with tough restrictions on heat and noise dissipation.It would very much qualify as a performance PC. If the folks here at T.H. truly do only think of a performance pc as a gaming machine, I guess then it's time they put down the games and take a look around. I've looked at dozens of HTPC forums and groups and I can tell you, trying to find a decent Blu-Ray, HD, HTPC build is tough to do.[/citation]

No, there are loads of different kinds of performance machines. The problem as I see it is that the people responsible for media PC content seem to believe that an HTPC is nothing more than a DivX file player. Sure, the server guys love powerful servers, the workstation guys love powerful workstations, the networking guys love...whatever it is...but the "media center" guys? Real world readers need to put the appropriate comments in the articles they write.

But I can still make a suggestion for "alternative HTPC" content to be handled by different editors, if the media center guys never "come around".

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]niknikktm[/nom]It's not about cramming performance into a small form factor. A full ATX form factor is suitable for most of the middle and higher end HTPC cases. Space isn't much of an issue at all. And yes the graphics card reviews have dealt with "at least in passing" resolutions that apply to HTPC. Pretty much only "in passing" in fact. Throwing in a media bench mark isn't exactly addressing the issue.There are plenty of hardware solutions out there as well. There just isn't anything from Tom's in quite some time that addresses this type of build and actually fits those pieces together. That was my main point. Tom's used to cover a broader variety of unthusiasts interests. That's not the case any longer as most of the articles and builds are predominantly aimed at the gaming sector with just a "passing" reference to media or other areas of interest. I would just like to see them get back to covering a broader variety of applications to suit the broader section of the enthusiasts out there. There's a large demographic of enthusiasts that are interested in more than just the gaming applications of PC hardware.[/citation]

You're right. I keep trying to tell people everywhere, including in the forums, that cube-shaped cases have nothing to do with HTPC. A home theater rack holds 17-18" wide devices, and we've reviewed several full-sized desktops (that's like a tower laid on its side) designed to meld with traditional home theater rack components.

From my viewpoint, an HTPC should be able to do everything that we'd expect from a traditional performance PC. That means it's basically a high-end gaming system with added storage and more input devices. A high-end machine should already be designed with low noise in mind, which addresses the virtual silence so often sought by HTPC officianodos.

 

[neiroatopelcc]

So a mediacenter in that definition is a hp DL180 server with a bunch of drives in raid 10 or 6, and a 4870 that's connected thru a riser converting one of the x8 slots to x16 physically ..... job done. took 2 minutes

 

[KyleSTL]

I would just give up with this crowd about HTPCs. SilentPCReview and TheGreenButton are better sources of information for that.

 

[sumofugu]

I cant wait till the next article. When will your next system builder article be ready?