System Builder Marathon, Q2 2013: The $400 Spirit Of Mini-ITX

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I must say, this marathon's discussion boards have become more about the Toms team defending their decisions (and talking down to anyone that disagrees) than about actual discussion of the merits of these builds.
 
What you're really seeing is Paul trying to satisfy the honest discussion here and me chasing away a few digressions. This is a great place to discuss the merits of alternative low-power hardware for example, but not at all the place to bring your fights from other build threads.
 


Yep, at rare times that is true, and it's unfortunate. I don't like going there and much appreciate all the readers who curb the trash talking for us so our time goes into more valid responses. We appreciate reader feedback and welcome open discussion. But when folks don't read the text, ignore facts, and lash out with false accusations based on the one machine they built, it takes defending or weighing trolling considerations. I talked down to one and only person here who very much deserved it (maybe two but it seems he/she created a new account just to spam and rant away at the same topic... all based on one build/PSU that suffered instability).

For instance, lets take some of those comments straight up above (I fired back at).... we aren't paid off, we didn't try a DVD burner and have it fail from lack of power, we aren't maxing out the PSU, it isn't an utterly stupid build (in fact there is no way you'd out-game it for the money in this enclosure under the rules), an APU would not be way better, nor safer, nor would it consume less power (A10), nor does adding up TDP equate to power consumption, nor would a 35W processor necessarily consume less power and be safer. Lets continue.... todays parts and prices were not available 6-8 weeks ago, we don't count rebates, we don't shop all sites, use combos, or go to Microcenter, etc. etc. etc. Do I really need to continue? You are a regular, so you know everything I just said is not made up but straight from "reader (or lack of reader) comments, during this SBM.

I'll tell you, when people show some respect, and try to add to the discussion, I'm more than happy to hear other opinions. I enjoy many of the alternate views. We learn from them and shape future SBMs based on what readers want to see. But if it's an obvious kiddy (in age or maturity) who just wants to cry foul play and attack, well do they deserve our ear or our utmost patience? It gets old, quick.

There are folks here who greatly add to the discussion based on their knowledge and experience, then there are others who either troll or just need to shut up and learn, rather than stick both feet in their mouths. Ultimately I just don't want anyone misled by the fanboys or misinformed.

 
Paul, I think you've done an excellent job. If you seemed a little harsh, yeah well you were getting trolled. I'm not sure the Mod Squad has a formal policy on editors getting a little snippy, but for my part I'm inclined to cut a lot of slack because I know you guys put a lot of effort into your builds; we're here to support you and your endeavors. As you know, I don't always agree with the SBM builds, but I try not to turn my opinion into the average, or a single case into the norm. One thing I would like to see more of are some additional temperature measurements (e.g. air going in vs. air coming out) over an extended gaming session; perhaps use an IR thermometer on the VRMs or something to try to show overall system stress, which I don't think CPU temp alone covers.
 
Thanks Onus!

LOL, I would have preferred those comments including my reply be quickly moderated actually. Maybe next time I'll just shoot you a PM.

I'm yet to be reprimanded in any way for a single one of my story comments over the past 5 years. But you hit the nail on the head. We do put in a lot of effort, and I personally pride myself in extra effort, going above and beyond what the story requires. So getting trolled is annoying. But even so, the main reason I take the bait is (if nobody else does first and saves me), I just fear someone will actually believe the vocal troll and be swayed into a poor purchasing decision or a develop a tainted view of the Tom's Hardware team. Sure a one sentence reply or no reply would likely be best otherwise.

I've been using an IR thermometer for a while now on all my test platforms including these two ITX builds. SBMS are a bit tougher as it's a closed case during actual testing, and opening it up changes those metrics some. I'd be willing to add that data in the future, including intake and exhaust/PSU air temps. I recently boosted airflow over board components on my current AM3+ (open-air platform) beyond anything I've needed before with mild air OC'ing, not for stability, more just for my own comfort levels.
 


On the reprimand front, I've been willing to "take one for the team". Or maybe two. Half of what I say is right on the edge of acceptability, but I do have a reason. I share your fears of persuasive trolls ruining other people's hardware.

I think Don took the harshest beating this time though.

 


You are asking too much if you expect a majority of the community to show you respect. It is one of the unfortunate products of anonymity and there isn't much that can be done change this behavior. Much of the toxic dialect that that was exhibited could have been avoided by moderation of these threads. I, too, have tendencies to troll a troll once in a while but being the initiator of this discussion, and a member of the team, your negative rebuttals actually do more harm than good to a passerby that observes spectacle. Hopefully, in the future, the trolls can be squelched instead of feed.

I look forward to reading your review on the 750K :)
 

For mounting that fan on the outside of a case as nicely finished as a Lian Li, I can't say he didn't deserve it! Still, there's ribbing, and constructive criticism, that doesn't reach the point of trolling. I might suggest a one paragraph boilerplate on page#1 of any SBM build including "the rules" of the SBM; this stuff: "Parts and prices were not available 6-8 weeks ago, we don't count rebates, we don't shop all sites, use combos, or go to Microcenter, etc." This would give the Moderators all the justification we need to remove any post that does not show proper respect for the constraints of the SBM (disagreements, or alternatives that don't follow these rules may still be acceptable, provided the poster clearly understands those constraints).
 
Seems you only write articles for gamers. If you were going to build a computer of similar price for general use with no video card how would you select the parts? I dont look at a computer as a collection of the lowest denominator parts. I think about how long can I make it last if I build it with parts of just a little higher quality and use the computer for streaming Internet Video like Hulu and other sites. I have never looked back a year later or two years later and thought, "I sure am glad I used all these low end parts that I can never upgrade!" For instance I would never use a 4500rpm Drive. I might consider an SSD instead of a slow hard drive. Just dont slow down my cute kitty cat videos.
 
In general, I'm pretty satisfied that the SBM articles don't recommend bottom-dollar parts, although there is an occasional exception. In fact, some of the harshest comments ever came when someone tried that (a certain Raidmax case comes to mind). I don't think any of the veteran builders recommend parts they'd never use themselves; I know I don't, and I cannot think of anyone who does. So yes, a 5400RPM drive is a questionable choice, and I think reader comments have supported that. Still, for the purpose / performance targets set for the machine, it wasn't unconscionable.
 
Say you went with a Cooler Master Elite 120 instead of the Antec ISK300-150 case. Half the price, and more room. How could that same $400 been used? I've been in the market for a set-top machine for the living room. Basically, I'd just be running MediaBrowser, some light gaming, and basic internet usage. I'd really want the best graphics possible within the $400 budget. Otherwise, love the article!
 


When I said set-top, I mean on the shelf below my TV. Right now I'm using an HP Compaq 6005 Pro for my MediaBrowser but since I cannot upgrade the graphics on the machine I'm stuck. I'd definitely be looking at dual-slot graphics and the SilverStone case you linked to looks perfect. SFX power supplies don't look to be too expensive, so that should work. With the option for dual-slot graphics, would there be much in the $400 budget for something about a HD7750, say if I re-used a hard drive?
 
Well, you can get a HIS HD7770 for around $105 I think, and if you go up to around $130 you can get a GTX650Ti. $140 will get a HD7790, and $145 buys a GTX650Ti Boost.
FSP has a couple of nice SFX PSUs at 400W-450W which could power any of those cards.
Note that the DVD drive needs to be slim, and that means it will need an adapter for the power and SATA cables. Getting all this under $400 may be tough.
 


The HSI HD 7790 has been sitting at $130 without rebate or promo codes for some time now at Newegg.
 


This isn't in accordance to the guidelines of the system builder marathon but this is a good $400 build:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Pentium G2020 2.9GHz Dual-Core Processor ($61.98 @ Outlet PC)
Motherboard: Foxconn H61S Mini ITX LGA1155 Motherboard ($49.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: G.Skill 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($37.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 320GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($52.51 @ Amazon)
Video Card: MSI Radeon HD 7790 1GB Video Card ($124.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Cooler Master Elite 120 Advanced (Black) Mini ITX Tower Case ($43.13 @ NCIX US)
Power Supply: Corsair CX 430W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V Power Supply ($29.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $400.58

 
The MSI 7790 1GB was $125 before $25 rebate over the weekend, shipped free. PLUS it came with three games (Tomb Raider, BioShock, and FC3 Blood Dragon).

$80 is pretty reasonable for a mini-ITX case and PSU. There are cheaper ones, but the fear is the included PSU. SG05 is a great compromise case (size vs. versatility) if you can get it in budget.
 
Ruban, for an office / email / surfing build, I might do that too, but not for playing games. The HD7750 will beat the tar out of an APU, especially since the tiny case will limit overclocking due to heat.
 


List an APU that can beat a G860 + 7750 and that was available back in April. Then we'll talk.

An APU might've freed up some money for other parts of the build, like a better mboard or larger HDD, but the gaming performance would suffer. If gaming isn't a priority, that's a great compromise. If you still want some gaming chops, the discrete GPU is still the way to go.
 
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