System Builder Marathon Q3 2015: Value Comparison

[hdmark]

I think a "coolest" competition would be interesting. See who can build the computer that runs the coolest. maybe a $1200 budget and compare a fully air cooled, a closed loop system, and a custom loop.
still normal metrics for testing but emphasis on the performance/temperature metrics.

 

[beoza]

I like the idea of taking these and "fixing" them. It would be interesting to take these systems and perform an upgrade to them that the average person would do like adding a new HD, GPU, RAM, better cooling. Just to see how much better these systems would perform by putting in better components. This would be typical of what the average person would do instead of building a new computer every year, just upgrade parts like storage, gpu, add more memory. Motherboard and CPU must stay the same though just upgrade the other parts heck even the case could be upgraded.

 

[Ben Archer]

I'd still love to see a no fixed budget, value shoot out. All three builders are told to spend whatever they want to take the overall value win. Each builder takes their best shot at the value sweet spot. I think this would produce some great build diversity and interesting explanations. Guessing this would be machines in the $600-$900 range, but maybe someone feels adventurious and goes with a $400 or a $1200? Only one way to find out.

 

[RedJaron]

The multi-quote feature isn't working for me so I'll just have to respond without quotes.

First, while my CPU was technically overclocked, it didn't do much in actuality. All I did was raise the ceiling on it from 4.0 GHz to 4.3 GHz, but it rarely reached those speeds. I wasn't going to risk roasting the chip, so I left thermal protection and throttling features on. On a few single-threaded tasks it hit 4.2 GHz, but it didn't always stay there. On most of the multi-core benches, speeds dropped down to the 3.5 - 3.7 GHz range. That means it was running slower than the i3 at least half the time.

Second, GTX 970 pricing. I know the price listing plug-in says $250, but I paid $330 for my GPU. When I was first buying parts, there was a short discount on it that took it down to $310, but I wasn't able to get that price. As purchased, my part cost went like this: $75 CPU, $94 MBoard, $330 GPU, $39 RAM, $53 HDD, $54 PSU, $50 case, $12 ODD, $90 Windows.

McWhiskey, I don't think most SBMs throw out the concept of a balanced build. Sometimes Paul has gone for big gaming numbers alone, but he has done just as many "normal" builds as well. However I will be the first to say the Munchkin is not a balanced build.

Droste, I can get behind the idea of an "upgrade" SBM. I think Joe and I ( or possibly others ) might have pitched that idea a few years ago as well, except we were saying all three builders take the same existing build and then spend $X to improve it ( one builder would have $100 for upgrades, one would have $200, etc. ).

Zero2Dash, you may need to provide evidence to your claim that the majority of end-users don't use optical drives for anything. Don't fall to the "I don't know a single person who voted for Nixon" fallacy. Also, even though a G3258 can be overclocked, two threads at 4.4 GHz is not going to beat four threads at 3.7 GHz in anything except single-threaded tasks. In terms of overall real-world performance, the i3 beats the Pentium soundly.

Firefoxx, this is exactly what I was talking about in my write-up. Having a fudge factor in a budget makes all the difference in a real-world build. If I could've gone over the $800 budget by only $15, I could have fit a SSD in, and that makes a big difference. But that's one of the challenges of the SBM and makes it a little fun. Seriously, people, if you've never tried to make a computer on an absolutely fixed budget, I suggest you try it. You'll come away with a very different perspective on part selection.

Andrew, we have used a compiling benchmark in the past. It's Total Code, not VS, and it compiles the Chrome browser.

jtd871, I disagree with taking the case price out of the value equation. The case you choose has a direct effect on component cooling, and we overclock these things. Some cases used have been dirt cheap, but some have been pretty decent. I don't think anyone would call the CM Elite 130 I used this quarter a dirt cheap or ugly case. The problem with calculating in case cost to value is that some premium cases don't cool better than a cheaper model, but you pay extra for other features that can't be quantified. Still, I think case cost needs to be included in the value calculation to some degree.

UPDATE: Quick question to everyone. What do you think about the 4800x900 resolution gaming tests? How many people use that? Comparatively, how many people game at 2560x1440?

 

[zero2dash]

Zero2Dash, you may need to provide evidence to your claim that the majority of end-users don't use optical drives for anything. Don't fall to the "I don't know a single person who voted for Nixon" fallacy.

-You install the OS via thumb drive.
-You DL software via the internet directly to the PC; worst case, you have a secondary somewhere that you DL drivers for the new build (if the OS does not find an ethernet driver) and save those to thumb drive (because if you're buying parts to build a PC, you need a connected device to do so since obviously NewEgg is not B&M).

Where's the optical media come in?
Sending files person to person you're either over email, cloud storage, or FTP/SFTP. People don't send DVD+R's via courier anymore.

Also, even though a G3258 can be overclocked, two threads at 4.4 GHz is not going to beat four threads at 3.7 GHz in anything except single-threaded tasks.

Most apps are still only 2 SMP thread aware; sure, there will be boosts in encoding or DB work with an i3 (due to the HT), but for gaming and most other tasks (web/email, Office productivity), a G3258 is still a very viable processor.

In terms of overall real-world performance, the i3 beats the Pentium soundly.

@ stock, yes. G3258 OC'd, no. Again, most apps = 2 SMP thread aware. 2 threads @ 4.2 vs 2 threads @ 3.7 - no contest here. I left my G3258 system @ 4.2 with a .09 Vcc bump. Sure you can push higher but there's really no reason. 4.2 <> 4.4, meh.

G3258 may bottleneck a bit with games over say an i3, but at 1080P (matching max console output), the difference is neglible with something like a 970.

Yes, my primary workstation is more/costs more (4790K/980), but we're talking $700 budget here before OS. I'm very pleased with my G3258/7770 "el cheapo" rig. 😉

 

[Chris Droste]

im not so sure the 4800x900 resolution is relevant but i do like the 2560x1440 metric since i think it's the next logical step over 1080p gaming, especially with all these 21:9 curved displays starting to make their way into the market.

*** that was a HUGE answer post, lol

 

[beoza]

Zero2Dash, you may need to provide evidence to your claim that the majority of end-users don't use optical drives for anything. Don't fall to the "I don't know a single person who voted for Nixon" fallacy.

-You install the OS via thumb drive.
-You DL software via the internet directly to the PC; worst case, you have a secondary somewhere that you DL drivers for the new build (if the OS does not find an ethernet driver) and save those to thumb drive (because if you're buying parts to build a PC, you need a connected device to do so since obviously NewEgg is not B&M).

Where's the optical media come in?
Sending files person to person you're either over email, cloud storage, or FTP/SFTP. People don't send DVD+R's via courier anymore.

You're forgetting that there's still a lot of people who live out in the boonies that are stuck with dial up or Satellite. You try downloading a 4GB OS on dialup and tell me how many days it'll take you, or even on a metered/limited connection like satellite. You can use these services, be connected to the internet and still order items off Newegg, Amazon or any other etailer, but downloading software is not the best option with them because of limited bandwidth. Yes the majority of people live in large cities but not everyone has the luxury of an always on always connected high speed internet, and there are still people who even though they have this type of connection that still prefer a disk though this is changing as flash drives are pretty cheap.

This is the problem that people and companies seem to forget. Sure the cloud and streaming services are great (I use them) but not everyone has access to them. I remember the days of dial up and waiting for just a simple image to load, and even further back when you had to type in every command just to do work on a computer. But just because there's all these new ways to get stuff don't forget that there's still a great many people around the world who are still stuck using antiquated dial up or limited/metered bandwidth Satellite ISP's. Heck there's still places where they don't even have internet so physical media is a must for them.

 

[McWhiskey]

Kudos to you sir. Great job jumping in and addressing everyone's questions. I apologize for exaggerating. You are correct that not every SBM has had unbalanced systems. However, I often find some kind of unbalanced bias come in to play in the part picking section. Here is a random example not related to balance but shows bias. "This is a $1600 build so I need a nice case." vs "This is a $500 build so any case will do." There are two very different goals evident in these two statements, yet both systems are being evaluated with the same metrics. Similar to this I have seen statements like, "I'm going to go all out for gaming." Or "This choice might cost more but it should help with some of the synthetic benchmarks."

 

[RedJaron]

-You DL software via the internet directly to the PC; worst case, you have a secondary somewhere that you DL drivers for the new build (if the OS does not find an ethernet driver) and save those to thumb drive (because if you're buying parts to build a PC, you need a connected device to do so since obviously NewEgg is not B&M).

Where's the optical media come in?
Sending files person to person you're either over email, cloud storage, or FTP/SFTP. People don't send DVD+R's via courier anymore.

I said don't fall into the Nixon voter trap, not ramp it to 11. You may behave that way. Your friends may behave that way. However you and your friends do not equate to the majority of all computer end-users in the world, your country, your state, or even your city. Stop thinking that your own habits reflect the habits of everyone else.

Most apps are still only 2 SMP thread aware; sure, there will be boosts in encoding or DB work with an i3 (due to the HT), but for gaming and most other tasks (web/email, Office productivity), a G3258 is still a very viable processor.

I never said the Pentium wasn't a viable processor for some uses, only that it pales compared to the i3.

@ stock, yes. G3258 OC'd, no. Again, most apps = 2 SMP thread aware. 2 threads @ 4.2 vs 2 threads @ 3.7 - no contest here.

Even though individual applications may be single-threaded, you aren't actually running only one application at a time. You have the active application threads, inactive application threads, background task threads, and OS threads. Having twice as many logical processors makes it easier for a system to juggle those around.

G3258 may bottleneck a bit with games over say an i3, but at 1080P (matching max console output), the difference is neglible with something like a 970.

Consider that Dragon Age: Inquisition won't even run on dual-cores. While most games still function fine one two cores, they're shifting to three or more much faster than I would've guessed. Multiplayer gaming can't be consistently benchmarked, but it puts more strain on the CPU than single-player mode. Then there's the question if you want to record or stream your gameplay.

Yes, my primary workstation is more/costs more (4790K/980), but we're talking $700 budget here before OS. I'm very pleased with my G3258/7770 "el cheapo" rig. 😉

That's great you're happy with your system. However, you might want to compare Chris' build this quarter to Paul's Q4 2014. Your statement that the OC'd G3258 will "get better performance in practically all tasks" is completely false.

im not so sure the 4800x900 resolution is relevant but i do like the 2560x1440 metric since i think it's the next logical step over 1080p gaming, especially with all these 21:9 curved displays starting to make their way into the market.

2560x1440 is actually a 16:9 display. 21:9 is 2560x1080 or 3440x1400.

*** that was a HUGE answer post, lol

Ask me the time, I'll tell you how to build a clock.

 

[Onus]

These SBM builds (and the reasoning behind them) get niggled to death in the comments, but that just brings out the value in the data they generate. It's better to beat on these guys, than take two-footed leaps onto the heads of poor newbs looking for build advice on their own systems.
One of the advantages of all the builds having the same budget is it lets people see how the particular balance of each one performs in the same metrics. They can then consider their own needs, and look at what different types of balance may give them.

 

[Coldshard]

For a future system build marathon I think we are getting into the range where 4k/VR building is an interesting question.

As in, which system with specific requirements makes the best at 4k/VR gaming and other tasks. Get builds using the various high end cards and different cpus and see what the field is like. Pushing the high end and shooting for good enough numbers while seeing how the efficiency of price calculations come out would be interesting!

Also, as a baseline I think each should have the same standard skeleton. OS, SSD, case, psu, and optical drive. Have the total cost of the other components plus the standard base giving the full cost it would take for a person to copy the build. Plus, it would normalize some of the background (ssd x is better than ssd y at task z which makes a benchmark a bit off potentially giving the wrong impression).

It'd be interesting to see a system build comparison doing this and another just like it at the end of next year.

 

[synphul]

Just though I'd mention, I'm one of those who lives in the 'boonies'. My options are dialup, satellite or wireless. Using 3g wireless (the fastest unlimited option in my region as well as for others) I downloaded the win10 early release. Took over 3 days. That's why <$20 is a sound reason to purchase a dvd drive. I burn my own media and share with friends who aren't always tech savvy and don't have usb ports on their tv to plug a thumb drive into. By own media I mean footage shot with a small 1080p handheld of events at my home. A couple of years ago at a relative's funeral the service provided a dvd compilation I was able to share with family that couldn't make it. Though I'm forced to use steam/uplay for drm purposes, all of my games are on dvd. There are times when a pc having issues won't properly boot to usb and yet it will handily read a recovery or liveos cd/dvd.

The list goes on and on and a thumb drive + internet connection just doesn't cut it. If someone can get along fine without an optical drive then fantastic. However it's not prudent to make assumptions that because one person doesn't have a need that no one does. It's sort of like saying a 5960x is 'unneeded' when what the person meant to say was, it's not needed for them. Some people don't need anything more than an i3 and it doesn't automatically make the rest of the cpu's 'pointless' simply because they extend past the needs of a particular individual.

 

[Chris Droste]

rofl; new SBM project.... 4K gaming on sub$900. even the Munchkin would have problems shoehorning in enough hp to make "playable"

although at that budget level most of the builds will have a 980 and 1-2 gen old parts that have the ever loving snot OC'd out of it just to keep it from bottlenecking.

 

[RedJaron]

Hmmm, a Kabini matched with a Fury X. What could go wrong? 😉

 

[DouglasThurman]

I say give all three builders $950 next time. Yup. And ditch the optical requirement.

 

[McWhiskey]

These SBM builds (and the reasoning behind them) get niggled to death in the comments, but that just brings out the value in the data they generate. It's better to beat on these guys, than take two-footed leaps onto the heads of poor newbs looking for build advice on their own systems.
One of the advantages of all the builds having the same budget is it lets people see how the particular balance of each one performs in the same metrics. They can then consider their own needs, and look at what different types of balance may give them.

So true. I often read comments that sum up to, "I would have done something different so this was kind of pointless." It certainly is NOT pointless. In fact, even with some questionable choices, I look forward to these articles quite a bit. They are very enlightening on particular combinations of components.

Hopefully, most comments are taken by the authors with a grain of salt and a pat on the back.

Moving forward, would it be possible to (combining several ideas from above):
1) Have everyone vote on some kind of specific theme. (gaming at 4K, HTPC, Office work horse. etc...)
2) Start off with some kind of common baseline. (OS, ODD, monitor, mouse, keyboard, etc...)
3) Have a loose budget but have the value/performance metric meaningful in a way that efficiency is always in mind.
4) Keep the same metrics for comparison to previous builds but weight them based on the selected theme to crown a winner.

Perhaps, instead of community votes, 4 categories be setup and each one is hit once a year?

 

[Onus]

Hmmm, a Kabini matched with a Fury X. What could go wrong? 😉

Actually lots. I'm working on a Kabini project now. It stems from a personal idea, so the editorial team may not be interested (but I hope they are), but it will be of interest to at least a couple of different niches of builders. Those niches may not be large, but I suspect their interest would be high.

 

[Crashman]

I like the idea of fixing these machines but would rather see a budget. I know over time I keep upgrading my existing machine to address limitations. How about a $500 budget to upgrade these $800 machines. I don't have an unlimited budget so this feels more realistic.

But an unlimited budget to upgrade these configurations would most likely result in machines that cost $100 to $300 more. The "Value" competition would keep most of us from over-spending.

 

[jimmysmitty]

How about we throw out the budget limits next time and ask everybody to fix all the problems with their current build specs? We'd still need to compete for value, so the "no budget" part should still yield machines in the $900 to $1200 range, because once you go "too far" you start to loose the "price/performance" math.

In my estimation, (read: guess ;-) slap a Fury or a Fury X on the AMD mini PC and the "gaming" PC and you're pretty much done. That falls within the $900 - $1200 price range.

I guess the builders could also do a Crossfire or SLI experiment if they really wanted to test out wild ideas (or heck, just look around for a cheap 295X2 🙂

Fury X wouldn't fit that case with everything in it for the AMD mini build. Fury might but it is a pretty long GPU.

There is more that can be "fixed".

 

[RedJaron]

Fury X wouldn't fit that case with everything in it for the AMD mini build. Fury might but it is a pretty long GPU.

A Fury X is shorter than the 970 that's currently in that case, so it would fit easily. The Fury's radiator can be mounted up front in place of the 120mm intake fan. That of course affects the airflow in the rest of the case.

 

[BannereusPrime]

Idea for a new benchmark, especially after seeing the 7-zip results:
Compress a small game (~10GB) from the system drive to a USB 3.1 device using 7-zip (maybe on lower compression settings for faster/reasonable times?)

1. It's relevant, I've done this with a friend with slow internet, since you can move and recognize program files for steam games already in your library with just an update (faster than a full download, for the optical-disk-drive audience)

2. 7-zip apparently rewards SSDs with actual performance beyond synthetics, which should not be skipped so lightly as it affects general user experience

3. rewards new feature sets -> USB 3.0 vs 3.1 is something people consider and pay for, but is not recognized in your builds, and especially now that Z170 exists (in addition to USB 3,1 add-in cards); plus people will invest in these devices independently of the build because they are compatible for several generations

4. 7-zip compression rewards cpu efficiency, clocks and threads, both AMD and Intel, which may become more relevant (than just single-core throughput) once DX12 and Vulkan are better represented in gaming, and will show how much

 

[Dugimodo]

If you took the prosumer build and stole the graphics card from the mini and the SSD from the gaming machine you'd have a very nice machine, whatever price that works out to is about where I'd like to see a comparison. That represents a nice mainstream gaming build without being too excessive.

On another front when building to a budget I've used the seagate SSHD as a compromise before and been quite impressed with it, have you considered that as an alterantive to the WD blue? Under some situations it gives almost SSD performance while having a price in line with other platter based drives.

 

[jimmysmitty]

Fury X wouldn't fit that case with everything in it for the AMD mini build. Fury might but it is a pretty long GPU.

A Fury X is shorter than the 970 that's currently in that case, so it would fit easily. The Fury's radiator can be mounted up front in place of the 120mm intake fan. That of course affects the airflow in the rest of the case.

Possibly but it would be a tight fit. I am not talking about length for Fury X, I said Fury as Fury is much longer than Fury X and also thicker thanks to the fan shroud, but in terms of mounting the radiator without blocking air flow for the CPU and board.

I would rather not as the heat from the GPU means the CPU will get higher ambient temps and limit potential performance. It is better to haver a case more suited for it, like the Corsair case in the gamer build.

 

[RedJaron]

If you took the prosumer build and stole the graphics card from the mini and the SSD from the gaming machine you'd have a very nice machine, whatever price that works out to is about where I'd like to see a comparison. That represents a nice mainstream gaming build without being too excessive.

A $1000+ rig is "mainstream" to you? Po-tay-to / po-tah-to I suppose, but many people would consider such a build to be a pretty high-end rig.

On another front when building to a budget I've used the seagate SSHD as a compromise before and been quite impressed with it, have you considered that as an alterantive to the WD blue? Under some situations it gives almost SSD performance while having a price in line with other platter based drives.

I may be wrong, but I don't think a hybrid drive would help much in these benchmarks. Hybrids only help load times when the data is in the cache. We'd have to run a benchmark first to get it in the cache then run it again in order to get a benefit. Then we'd have to do that same thing for every single bench.

I know hybrids help in real-life, I just don't think that would be represented in the benchmarks.

 

[RedJaron]

Hmmm, a Kabini matched with a Fury X. What could go wrong? 😉

Actually lots.

Oh hush. We're having fun going full Munchkin for 4K/VR gaming. 😉

So if it's decided that next quarter is to "fix" these builds, do we need to lay down some rules about what "fixing" means? Take my build for example. Obviously the CPU overheating is the biggest problem ( or top two ). One way to fix that would be to get a cooler running CPU. But if I swapped in an i3, is that "fixing" or completely changing? Do we need to specify that you have to keep the same CPU, or at least the same platform/socket?