[SOLVED] System instability/freezing when XMP is enabled ?

[sonic9219]

Hello, hope you are all doing well ! Without wasting time lets get right into my Configuration so you know what you deal with and so you can give me a right advice what can i do about or what to not do with this system config :

Motherboard : Asus TUF Z270 mark 1
CPU : Intel core i7 6700 K
Memory : G Skill Aegis DDR4 16 GB 3200 Mhz kit
NVME : Samsung EVO 970 500 GB
Graphics Card :MSI GTX 760 2GB OC Hawk Edition
CPU Cooler : Noctua DH-N15 Cromax Black
HDD: WD caviar Black 2 TB 7200 rpm
Case fans : 140 mm Top mounted case fan and side panel 200 mm intake case fan ( side panel is taken off due to interefierence with the huge cooler )

So im wondering since i have seen some people being able to run 6700 k with 3200 Mhz RAM memory on XMP, why am i getting freezes and system blue screens while XMP enabled ? I havent touched anything in terms of editing XMP or what so ever. I first tought it was cuz i overclocked CPU a bit, so i loaded default settings and enabled XMP only and i was getting same problem, when i dont enable that and use non overclocked RAM it runs ok. And then i was researching my CPU specs and saw that a memory controller on my CPU runs at 2133 max. Does that mean that i cant push memory beyond 2133 Mhz ? Also when i use XMP profile my RAM gets really hot and it doesnt have a huge heatsink since i needed room for beafy cooler so i found those low profile RAM sticks from Gskill that are DDR4, hope i didnt mess something up. Thank you in advance !

 

[Aeacus]

And then i was researching my CPU specs and saw that a memory controller on my CPU runs at 2133 max. Does that mean that i cant push memory beyond 2133 Mhz ?

No. I have i5-6600K and i'm running 3000 Mhz RAM just fine.

So im wondering since i have seen some people being able to run 6700 k with 3200 Mhz RAM memory on XMP, why am i getting freezes and system blue screens while XMP enabled ?

If you get issues with XMP enabled, then this means the standard RAM OC settings (known as XMP), aren't stable for that RAM in your system. To get more out of your RAM, you need to manually OC it, with a bit less values than XMP is. E.g 3000 Mhz with same timings and voltage. Or 3200 Mhz with more loose timings.

 

[sonic9219]

Thanks for the advice, i have already done something similar, but since im not comfortable with changing timings i usually just adjust the frequency, but i couldnt go more then 2933 or something like that... which is a pitty to have ddr4 which cant at least run 3000 mhz, it was way better on ddr3 from kingstone hyper fury i could go as high as 2400 mhz on a 1600 mhz stick xD ... i could drive them with more voltage but more voltage means more heat more heat means less reliabillity and lifespan which is important for me, i need it to run long time and stable without hurting the performance capabilities (bottlenecking the rest of the components) i just wanted to confirm if i was right about xmp being an overkill for my ram sticks and if i have done good enough job compensating for good balance of performance and system stability without using xmp cuz i get those freezes every time i enable that in bios. Thanks for your answer

 

[Aeacus]

If you're willing to adjust timings, here is nice and short video about it on how to best do it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yed-a9vqTYc


The OC part is at 02:34. And while the guide talks about tightening timings, same can be applied on loosening timings. Just make sure that when loosening timings, you set tRAS double + 1 or 2 values of tRCD and tRP. E.g 14-15-15-31 or 15-16-16-35. My Kinston RAM is running 3000 Mhz with 15-17-17-39 timings and 1.35V.

Also, do note that higher frequency isn't always the best, especially when you have high CAS Latency to go along with it. To know which frequency and CAS Latency combos are most beneficial, lets put the frequency and latency into nanoseconds, with a formula of:
(cas latency/ram speed) x 2000 = latency in nanoseconds

Few examples:
(22/3200) x 2000 = 13.75 nanoseconds
(20/3000) x 2000 = 13.33 nanoseconds
(16/2667) x 2000 = 11.998 nanoseconds
(14/2400) x 2000 = 11.667 nanoseconds
(18/3200) x 2000 = 11.25 nanoseconds
(15/3000) x 2000 = 10 nanoseconds <- what i'm currently running

With this, slower frequency (2400 Mhz) but also smaller CAS Latency (CL14) RAM, is overall quicker, than higher frequency (3200 Mhz) and bigger CAS Latency (CL22) RAM.

 

[sonic9219]

hehe i do watch linus tech tips too and i did watch this video before and tought i might give it a shot and then this happend in my bios :

primary timings :
dram cas# latency CHA 15 CHB 15
dram ras# to cas# delay CHA 15 CHB 15
dram ras# ACT Time CHA 36 CHB 36
dram command rate 1N / 2N / 3N / N:1

then secondary timings
even longer list

then third timings
huge list

and it got me confused a lot so i didnt bother changing those since i dont want to kill my ram memory - cant buy new set right now soo i wouldnt experiment too much and risk...

i can see its running on auto and its running at 2133 mhz at 1.184 V 16384 MB

i do know to calculate the speeds in nanoseconds but what i dont know is all the names in my bios compared to what they do and what they are for exactly so since im no expert in the area i didnt bother much and just let them be you know... i would maybe try it if i knew which in my bios are the numbers explained and also how to balance timings right which isnt easy for an unexpirienced person in the memory OC area
if you could help me more in depth i could give it a try

 

[Aeacus]

Z-series MoBos offer a lot of customization in BIOS. I too have Z-series MoBo (MSI Z170A Gaming M5) and even i haven't figured out what each and every minute configuration value stands for.

primary timings :
dram cas# latency CHA 15 CHB 15
dram ras# to cas# delay CHA 15 CHB 15
dram ras# ACT Time CHA 36 CHB 36
dram command rate 1N / 2N / 3N / N:1

Based on that and since your MoBo has two RAM channels, you can adjust RAM timings differently between Channel A and Channel B.
E.g: CHA (channel A) 15-15-15-32 with CHB (channel B) 14-16-16-36. As of why there is that option, i'm not entirely sure, since all RAM should be running with same timings. That is, unless you have different RAM in CHA than in CHB. Then it would make sense why to have different timings between RAM channels.

---

To manually OC your RAM, you need to look up it's XMP timings, by knowing the RAM part number.

I'll take my Kingston Savage [HX430C15SB2K2/8] RAM as an example;
specs *.pdf: www.kingston.com/dataSheets/HX430C15SB2K2_8.pdf

From specs, i can see that my RAM has three profiles built-in:
• JEDEC: DDR4-2133 CL15-15-15 @1.2V
• XMP Profile #1: DDR4-3000 CL15-17-17 @1.35V
• XMP Profile #2: DDR4-2666 CL14-15-15 @1.35V

I'm currently running Profile #1 since that brings the speeds to 3000 Mhz. Now, if, for some reason, the Profile #1 or #2 doesn't work, JEDEC profile will always work. But to still get 3000 Mhz out of it, i could manually loosen the timings. E.g 16-18-18-38 @ 1.35V. Or manually increase voltage to 1.4V with profile #1 timings.

It's quite a bit of fiddle, since after every timing change, you need to run memtest86, to make sure the OC is stable. This tedious testing is one of the main reasons why manufacturers implemented XMP, so that people doesn't have to fiddle with RAM OC themselves, instead, they can easily load custom OC, in form of XMP.

---

Now, there are 3 main reasons why XMP doesn't hold:

1. XMP itself isn't stable within the specific PC build.
2. CPU OC interferes with RAM XMP.
3. 3rd party software overwrites BIOS settings, including XMP.

Personally, i had an issue with 3rd reason.
Back in the day, when i bought my hardware, i also installed MoBo utility program: MSI Command Center (now known as MSI Dragon Center). And once OS booted and that program loaded, it overwrote BIOS settings. On top of that, it was incapable of detecting my RAM and put it at 2133 Mhz, without giving me any option to enable XMP within MSI Command Center itself.

So, i rebooted and went to BIOS, selected profile #1 which held nicely but as soon as MSI Command Center loaded, it reverted RAM profile back to JEDEC (2133 Mhz). The only fix i found, was completely uninstalling the program, so that it won't overwrite BIOS settings. And to this date, my RAM runs at 3000 Mhz without issues.

---

If you don't want to do the tedious manual OC, by making sure with memtest86 that RAM OC holds, it would be easier to buy a new RAM. Or keep using the JEDEC standard of 2133 Mhz.

Btw, to help you picking out RAM that actually does run at advertised speeds, check your MoBo memory QVL list. Since in there, MoBo manufacturer has tested several RAM sticks and listed their findings. That's how i picked my RAM, by looking MoBo memory QVL list and making sure that the RAM i got, will run at 3000 Mhz when all 4 RAM slots are populated (since that was my plan).

Checked your MoBo memory QVL list and e.g G.Skill [F4-3000C15Q-32GVR],
specs: https://www.gskill.com/specification/165/184/1536126478/F4-3000C15Q-32GVR-Specification
will run at 3000 Mhz with all 4 RAM slots populated, since it is a set of 4x 8GB DIMMs, total of 32GB of RAM. Though, it's also EOL RAM.

Interestingly, your MoBo memory QVL doesn't contain any RAM faster than 3000 Mhz. I guess Asus didn't test faster speeds than 3000 Mhz.

 

[sonic9219]

yeah its lost likely if you have different ram sticks so you can try and balnce them out and find compromise so they act like they are both somewhere in between xD but i dont understand command rate for example what do i set there and why is it unstable when i change from auto xD

This is an older motherboard for 6th intel gen, and the supported rams are ddr3L and ddr4 so they probably didnt have as high of the frequencies at a time of checking. But since my noctua d15 cromax black is a huge air cooler, i needed to find something low profile but fast and cheap and capacity of 16 gb kit... and the only i have found were this gskill aegis that were compatible with all my needs so i picked that one... since i didnt have money and im still paying of that configuration changing to new rams is not an option ... i did change timings to 16-18-38 and it runs but something is not stable.... graphic driver kicked me out of the game and my gpu was underclocked from its preOC msi hawk version sooo probably ram doing something... but i did get better scores at passmark performance test

 

[Karadjgne]

Xmp is a generic setting. The xmp profile assigned to your ram is not tailored for those sticks, but for that whole series. So it's not infallible. It just works 95% of the time, so it's good enough. For the salesman.

Doesn't mean it fits your exact setup, not that it's 100% reliable.

There's 2 parts to ram. The first explored above. The second is the memory controller in the cpu. Both have to be happy to get ram to be stable. If playing around with timings really solves nothing, what you can do is bump the voltages. There's 2 of them. One on the ram, common xmp setting is 1.5v. You can change that, 1.51v etc. Xmp will go as high as 1.8v but anything over 1.7v isn't recommended for daily use.

The other is the memory controller voltage. It might be a little on the skimpy side, (VCCSA, VCCIO) you'd need to look up which setting that is, it changes names with different bios.

 

[sonic9219]

oh thats awesome if i can edit values for cpu memory controller voltage but what are the safe daily use voltages for those ?

also my ram is running 1.18 V by default, wouldnt 1.8 V be overkill ? i mean its almost double the value :S xmp profile tried to use 1.45 - 1.845 range so i expirienced freezing at best case, more likely i cant load windows os, i get blue screen or black screen no boot, or it runs for a while and shuts down and tells me that system has most likely shut down cuz of power loss or system instability. So i need to press F1 or F2 to run setup when i get into the bios settings again. i managed to loosen timings to 16-18-38 and bump it up to 3200 mhz as advertized, i just need to match with right voltages to make it stable enough to solve this.

Thanks to everyone that replied to my post and contribute to solving this it really means a lot !

 

[Karadjgne]

Default ddr4 is 1.2 for most, xmp is 1.35. Max voltage 1.5

Default ddr3 is 1.5 for most, 1.65 for older sticks. Xmp is generally 1.65. Max voltage 1.8

You don't want to hit max voltages on either, that's LN2 world record speed voltages. At most, you'll want to bump voltages up by 0.1±. So ddr4 you'd set xmp as 1.35 but manually bump it to 1.355 or 1.36 etc.

You might also try giving VCCSA (system agent) and/or VCCIO (integrated memory controller) a Tiny bump as those voltages can and do affect memory stability.

In the past, to get higher speed memory stable it was often advised to give cpus a very slight overclock. Not just bumping the cpu speeds, but that also bumped the voltages included with the higher speed cpu, which made the ram more stable.

 

[sonic9219]

Yeah mostly for locked cpu when you use base clock boost ram also gets overclocked.

well you didnt give me the answer i was looking for, i asked for VCCSA voltage ranges and VCCIO voltage range so i dont kill the cpu or mobo, since i wouldnt have money to invest again so i need to be careful.

by the way my xmp was trying 1.45 V on my ddr4 sticks like loool .... too much juice... i am running on 1.35 now and it runs ok... but im wondering about those VCCSA and VCCIO never touched those before, can you give more info on those ?

 

[geofelt]

Do not over complicate this issue.

First of all, you probably can't tell the difference in actual performance between running at 3200 or at default 2133 speeds.
Intel processors have excellent memory controllers that can get data in before they are needed and eliminate any delay due to ram speed.
ram speed is important only if you are using integrated graphics.

Your ram will have a lifetime warranty.

Run memtest86 or memtest86+
They boot from a usb stick and do not use windows.
You can download them here:

MemTest86 - Official Site of the x86 Memory Testing Tool

MemTest86 is the original self booting memory testing software for x86 and ARM computers. Supporting both BIOS and UEFI, with options to boot from USB.

www.memtest86.com

Memtest86+ | The Open-Source Memory Testing Tool

Memtest86+ is an advanced, free, open-source, stand-alone memory tester for 32- and 64-bit computers (UEFI & BIOS supported)

www.memtest.org

If you can run a full pass with NO errors, your ram should be ok.

Running several more passes will sometimes uncover an issue, but it takes more time.
Probably not worth it unless you really suspect a ram issue.

Try with using the xmp settings.

If you are certain that your bios settings have nothing overclocked and you still fail memtest, contact g.skil support.

Is there a motherboard bios update that addresses ram issues?

My recollection overclocking the I5-6600k in the past is that there is an interaction with the added voltage that ram needs to run faster than stock.

 

[Karadjgne]

Can't give a range for vccsa and vccio as they run different in different setups. You'd look at those values and add 0.1v or 0.05v etc.

As to the ddr4 xmp wanting 1.45v, that's high, but not unheard of. Most ddr4 is 1.35v, but not all, some is lower, some is higher. Gskill says 1.45v for xmp, then that's what it is. Can't just say 'well other ram is using...' because that doesn't apply to those particular sticks. You could try 1.4v or 1.41v etc.

Understand, there's no exact, written in stone, absolute values for anything, even Intel only has 'recommended' ranges, but even those are not absolute. Intel also specified a recommended maximum of 1.5v for XMP2, and thats what they are sticking with and not going beyond, but gskill isn't Intel, isn't amd or msi or asus etc who are free to make their own recommendations, either higher or lower as they see fit.

Gskill set XMP as 1.45v. Doesn't matter if You think it's too much juice or not, Gskill says that's what the ram takes for xmp speeds, so that's what it gets.

 

[sonic9219]

Do not over complicate this issue.

First of all, you probably can't tell the difference in actual performance between running at 3200 or at default 2133 speeds.
Intel processors have excellent memory controllers that can get data in before they are needed and eliminate any delay due to ram speed.
ram speed is important only if you are using integrated graphics.

Your ram will have a lifetime warranty.

Run memtest86 or memtest86+
They boot from a usb stick and do not use windows.
You can download them here:

MemTest86 - Official Site of the x86 Memory Testing Tool

MemTest86 is the original self booting memory testing software for x86 and ARM computers. Supporting both BIOS and UEFI, with options to boot from USB.

www.memtest86.com

Memtest86+ | The Open-Source Memory Testing Tool

Memtest86+ is an advanced, free, open-source, stand-alone memory tester for 32- and 64-bit computers (UEFI & BIOS supported)

www.memtest.org

If you can run a full pass with NO errors, your ram should be ok.

Running several more passes will sometimes uncover an issue, but it takes more time.
Probably not worth it unless you really suspect a ram issue.

Try with using the xmp settings.

If you are certain that your bios settings have nothing overclocked and you still fail memtest, contact g.skil support.

Is there a motherboard bios update that addresses ram issues?

My recollection overclocking the I5-6600k in the past is that there is an interaction with the added voltage that ram needs to run faster than stock.

My system is bought to be able to be overclocked and to last.... since i have i7 6700k and a Z270 tuf motherboard means its intended to be system that should be able to overclock.. there for its riddiculus to run 2133 mhz which i could run on my ddr3 sticks if i payed for gskill ddr4 sticks ... but since i cant place an xmp profile and call it a day without worries i need to manually try and find a way to achieve somewhat close results and im quite pleased with the results soo far, i just need to add some voltages to keep it stable and its all good

 

[geofelt]

I7-6700K should be able to reach a 4.5 overclock.
Only about 6% of samples will reach 4.9.
https://siliconlottery.com/pages/statistics

On ram, higher speeds are accompanied by higher latencies which negate some of the speed difference.
Here is a study by Anandtech comparing performance of DDR4 ram from 2133 to 3200 speeds.
the result was minimal real difference in performance.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/8959...-3200-with-gskill-corsair-adata-and-crucial/6

 

[Karadjgne]

Intel doesn't benefit from higher speed ram. It's not Amd. Some software run on an intel platform most definitely will benefit from higher speed ram, but that's hit or miss as to which does and which doesn't.

 

[sonic9219]

I7-6700K should be able to reach a 4.5 overclock.
Only about 6% of samples will reach 4.9.
https://siliconlottery.com/pages/statistics

On ram, higher speeds are accompanied by higher latencies which negate some of the speed difference.
Here is a study by Anandtech comparing performance of DDR4 ram from 2133 to 3200 speeds.
the result was minimal real difference in performance.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/8959...-3200-with-gskill-corsair-adata-and-crucial/6

well mine is working like a champ then since im overclocking all cores in sync on 4.8 ghz with a turbo boost on 5.0 ghz which is spot on for me, everything i wanted.

as it goes for ram, im not speaking in general, just from my own expirience for now... since i have changed timings and boosted on 3200 mhz speed i could definitely see the difference in speed something gets done, i even improved passmark benchmark performance test result, and the ram test improved about 20 % performance increase soo it was amazing, but it came with a cost... it has a lil bit more delay on input so more cycles to wait until it hits the speed.... like a turbo lagg at a car you press pedal and wait for boost to start.... same here i click and wait slithly more for it to pick up put when it does its fast.

 

[sonic9219]

Can't give a range for vccsa and vccio as they run different in different setups. You'd look at those values and add 0.1v or 0.05v etc.

As to the ddr4 xmp wanting 1.45v, that's high, but not unheard of. Most ddr4 is 1.35v, but not all, some is lower, some is higher. Gskill says 1.45v for xmp, then that's what it is. Can't just say 'well other ram is using...' because that doesn't apply to those particular sticks. You could try 1.4v or 1.41v etc.

Understand, there's no exact, written in stone, absolute values for anything, even Intel only has 'recommended' ranges, but even those are not absolute. Intel also specified a recommended maximum of 1.5v for XMP2, and thats what they are sticking with and not going beyond, but gskill isn't Intel, isn't amd or msi or asus etc who are free to make their own recommendations, either higher or lower as they see fit.

Gskill set XMP as 1.45v. Doesn't matter if You think it's too much juice or not, Gskill says that's what the ram takes for xmp speeds, so that's what it gets.

i tried the vccio and vccsa and it didnt end up well, i dont know how but it has corrupted my windows boot manager and now i cant get it to boot at all
and i dont have repair disk or usb ready to get rid of this :S

 

[Karadjgne]

I've never, in 40+ years of working on pc's, seen a boot manager corrupted by bumping the memory controller voltage. It was a Small bump, correct? Like from 0.8v to 0.85v etc.

 

[sonic9219]

well not really it was 2.78 before so i went for 3.00 V and for the cpu agent or however its called i went from 2.335 to 2.5 V ... but since i accidently had left an usb stick in, it booted into mem86 and started testing ram, but since it was taking more then 30 mins i cenceled it ... maybe that could have caused the issue not sure tho. but i need to fix this somehow now... there goes my sleep before work out of the window xD oh well xD

 

[Karadjgne]

2.335, you should have gone 2.336 or 2.34v.

Memtest64 can take 4-8 hours.

 

[sonic9219]

well i would have if it let me do small increments... if i do increments that small nothing happends, it automaticly changes if its forth changing - bigger increments... for example for the one that i have put 3.0 V it automaticly place its own 2.886 V so it has its own increments so compared to my input it decides if it changes at all and on which one should it settle the best.... so idea of doing it for a little bit doesnt give any results for now :S

 

[sonic9219]

i have fixed the boot issue

 

[geofelt]

i have fixed the boot issue

What did you do??

 

[sonic9219]

well i downloaded app called veltoy or something like that, downloaded windows iso file and got onto troubleshooting the system startup and went into cmd, rewritten the boot bcd file rebuilding the boot file and it started... and i loaded less voltage on vccio and vccsa and it work again... it doesnt like more voltage on those dont know why.. but i have turned down the frequency to 2900 mhz cuz it was unstable to run 3200 again... freezing and stopped responding etc... so i guess its not meant to be, i have tried my best... thanks for the support guys, i appreciate it 🙂