News Taiwan's government strengthens 'silicon shield,' restricts exports of TSMC's most advanced process technologies

[Admin]

Taiwan is set to enforce strict controls on outbound semiconductor investments and advanced process technology exports under the amended Industrial Innovation Act, but uncertainty remains over how the government will define and restrict its future flagship nodes.

Taiwan's government strengthens 'silicon shield,' restricts exports of TSMC's most advanced process technologies : Read more

 

[Air2004]

Sounds like Taiwan may become part of China faster than they think.

 

[Constellar]

I only wish we could emigrate all the employees of TSMC to Phoenix, grant them citizenship, followed by shipping the factory equipment here. That way, TSMC becomes an American company, and the natives can't complain, as the employees would also be citizens.

 

[hotaru251]

This approach restricts export of the most advanced process technology, allowing only one generation older to be deployed abroad.

I am pretty sure Taiwan already didn't let their newest node be used outside taiwan? Or does this just mean only the nation of Taiwan to use it (the produced chips on said node) at all? (which i think is different?)

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...ore-advanced-confirms-taiwanese-govt-official back in nov.

The specific law they have had for ages:
LAW
Taiwanese law limits domestic chipmakers to producing chips abroad that are at least one generation less advanced than their fabs at home.

 

[adamXpeter]

Sounds like Taiwan may become part of China faster than they think.

Only if they do what @Constellar suggested ...

 

[Constellar]

Only if they do what @Constellar suggested ...

It's inevitable, anyways. Taiwan becoming a part of China, I mean. It's only a matter of time. I say scoop up all the talented ones before it's too late, that's all...

 

[Lug]

It's a return to reason.
What really protects Taiwan is that they are indispensable to the modern economy.

Obviously, if they transfer what they do their particularity, to the USA or elsewhere, why would the latter want to protect them? Especially with Trump in whom no one trusts, already striving to destroy American power and influence in the world by his erratic and disloyal character, it is better not to give him excuses by making Taiwan dispensable to American companies..

 

[phead128]

It's inevitable, anyways. Taiwan becoming a part of China, I mean. It's only a matter of time. I say scoop up all the talented ones before it's too late, that's all...

There is literally a law against foreign poaching of its semiconductor talent in Taiwan.

Americans be worried about Taiwan sovereignty, but willing to violate Taiwanese law when it benefits them.

 

[YSCCC]

I only wish we could emigrate all the employees of TSMC to Phoenix, grant them citizenship, followed by shipping the factory equipment here. That way, TSMC becomes an American company, and the natives can't complain, as the employees would also be citizens.

With current political situation I doubt a lot of Taiwanese experts will be interested.

 

[Blacksad999]

I only wish we could emigrate all the employees of TSMC to Phoenix, grant them citizenship, followed by shipping the factory equipment here. That way, TSMC becomes an American company, and the natives can't complain, as the employees would also be citizens.

And...what's in it for the employees or TSMC here?
It's not like America is welcoming to foreigners or very stable economically at the moment. Just give up your life for a severe downgrade?

 

[YSCCC]

And...what's in it for the employees or TSMC here?
It's not like America is welcoming to foreigners or very stable economically at the moment. Just give up your life for a severe downgrade?

Living cost and rent is like a few times worse than in Taiwan to begin with

 

[GenericUsername109]

I only wish we could emigrate all the employees of TSMC to Phoenix, grant them citizenship, followed by shipping the factory equipment here. That way, TSMC becomes an American company, and the natives can't complain, as the employees would also be citizens.

What's up with the US people thinking, that everybody else yearns to move to the US and live there? It may be the case for some of the poorest Latin Americans, but I doubt TSMC engineers are anywhere near that level of dissatisfaction (or desperation).
I once got searched and questioned by a US customs officer for like half an hour, because he was somehow convinced, that I wanted to illegally immigrate and stay. While I was just attending an AWS conference in Vegas.
It's just so dumb, this brainwashing about being the greatest country on Earth...

 

[fiyz]

Sounds like Taiwan may become part of China faster than they think.

Sounds like Taiwan wants to sell more gpus to the PRC.

 

[rluker5]

It's a return to reason.
What really protects Taiwan is that they are indispensable to the modern economy.

Not really. If TSMC were to disappear tomorrow it would be a setback for sure, but in 3 years you wouldn't be able to tell they were missing.

There is literally a law against foreign poaching of its semiconductor talent in Taiwan.

Americans be worried about Taiwan sovereignty, but willing to violate Taiwanese law when it benefits them.

Bit of a coincidence that TSMC had to set up shop in AZ then isn't it?

 

[Lug]

Not really. If TSMC were to disappear tomorrow it would be a setback for sure, but in 3 years you wouldn't be able to tell they were missing.

In three years? In the USA, it will take 10 years to build a factory, requiring personnel to be brought in from Taiwan, since the human skills don't exist locally.. I doubt that the disappearance of Taiwan, which would trigger the self-destruction of their factories, will be invisible after three years.

 

[TerryLaze]

In three years? In the USA, it will take 10 years to build a factory, requiring personnel to be brought in from Taiwan, since the human skills don't exist locally.. I doubt that the disappearance of Taiwan, which would trigger the self-destruction of their factories, will be invisible after three years.

FAB 52 and 62 began construction in 2021 and are now basically ready to produce chips.

 

[Constellar]

There is literally a law against foreign poaching of its semiconductor talent in Taiwan.

Americans be worried about Taiwan sovereignty, but willing to violate Taiwanese law when it benefits them.

Sure, but my point is that there won't be a Taiwan to enforce any such laws in the first place, so why not poach?
Look. We want Taiwan to be sovereign. But if we can't have that (based on Taiwan becoming China), then at least go in there and save as many Taiwanese as we can before China assumes complete control.
We wouldn't be poaching until China confirms it's going to take over.

 

[Constellar]

And...what's in it for the employees or TSMC here?
It's not like America is welcoming to foreigners or very stable economically at the moment. Just give up your life for a severe downgrade?

(Moderator: refer to sentence at the end of this message. Thank you)

Huh? I'm not sure we're in total agreement on what planet we're writing from...
Look. You'd be a madman to prefer Chinese living over American living, especially Phoenix living, which is a particularly modern city. The Chinese middle class is typically relegated to living, or being sentenced to, a high rise apartment with less than 1,200 square feet, no potable water, parking if lucky, 4 tiny bedrooms and no fireplace. American life, esp. in Phoenix, would include 4br 3ba 2,500 sqft, 2 stories 2-car attached, pool w/jacuzzi and yes, a fireplace. This is typified living for middle class America. I should know, I'm living it. My house cost me $400k only 3 years ago.
So go ahead and tell me that a Taiwanese worker would rather live in some tofu dreg project somewhere in Guangdong provence. I'll wait...
(PS: moderator, I know a couple points in this message aren't exactly on-topic, but they are necessary in order to adequately answer the question that's being asked. Please accept my apologies in advance).

 

[Constellar]

Living cost and rent is like a few times worse than in Taiwan to begin with

No it's not. Rent in Taiwan is on par with a Phoenix mortgage, only with a home in Phoenix, you're getting much more with your money. Food costs are higher, as is service costs. But commodity costs (cars, televisions, etc) are the same, and more than offset by the drastic increase in per capita GDP. Taiwan is a nice place to live; nicer than China, but it's not Phoenix nice.

 

[Constellar]

What's up with the US people thinking, that everybody else yearns to move to the US and live there? It may be the case for some of the poorest Latin Americans, but I doubt TSMC engineers are anywhere near that level of dissatisfaction (or desperation).
I once got searched and questioned by a US customs officer for like half an hour, because he was somehow convinced, that I wanted to illegally immigrate and stay. While I was just attending an AWS conference in Vegas.
It's just so dumb, this brainwashing about being the greatest country on Earth...

I'm not saying that a Taiwanese engineer would yearn (your word) l to live here. However, he would most certainly prefer (my word) to live here versus under PRC rule, which is the inevitable outcome of the CCP's military buildup. He would feel comfortable to stay in Taiwan as is, only because his friends are there, and the quality of life is only moderately better in the USA. But would he prefer to live here? To be a citizen of the Second Roman Empire, with nicer living, better universities, and easier schools to boot? He'd be kinda crazy not to.

 

[RADIO AND RADIO]

I'm not saying that a Taiwanese engineer would yearn (your word) l to live here. However, he would most certainly prefer (my word) to live here versus under PRC rule, which is the inevitable outcome of the CCP's military buildup. He would feel comfortable to stay in Taiwan as is, only because his friends are there, and the quality of life is only moderately better in the USA. But would he prefer to live here? To be a citizen of the Second Roman Empire, with nicer living, better universities, and easier schools to boot? He'd be kinda crazy not to.

and has a 100% owned overseas subsidiary - TSMC (Nanjing) Co., Ltd.'s 12-inch wafer fab, and TSMC (China) Co., Ltd.'s 8-inch wafer fabs

 

[YSCCC]

No it's not. Rent in Taiwan is on par with a Phoenix mortgage, only with a home in Phoenix, you're getting much more with your money. Food costs are higher, as is service costs. But commodity costs (cars, televisions, etc) are the same, and more than offset by the drastic increase in per capita GDP. Taiwan is a nice place to live; nicer than China, but it's not Phoenix nice.

Taiwan is big, and a lot of areas have far lower mortgage than in Phoenix, they have much better and much cheaper medical welfare. they have their family members and relatives and local culture they are grown up to, all those are much more attractive to a lot more ppl, plus they don't have to relearn and adapt to local culture and no guns by your neighbour, why do you think the current USA is still attractive to them?

Sure, a few might be interested, but to a point of able to basically move the whole TSMC to the USA? likely easier to support Intel to have their fab on par

 

[YSCCC]

I'm not saying that a Taiwanese engineer would yearn (your word) l to live here. However, he would most certainly prefer (my word) to live here versus under PRC rule, which is the inevitable outcome of the CCP's military buildup. He would feel comfortable to stay in Taiwan as is, only because his friends are there, and the quality of life is only moderately better in the USA. But would he prefer to live here? To be a citizen of the Second Roman Empire, with nicer living, better universities, and easier schools to boot? He'd be kinda crazy not to.

I always wonder where does this over confidence comes from

CCP claims to try invade TW since like 1972, there was a joke that the grand pa of someone warns about CCP invasion when he's young, now he's a grandpa and the invasion is likely not be seen before his grandchild become a grandpa...

And better quality of living is another big question. the QoL generally in TW isn't far from USA, especially for those who are really talented and high rank in TSMC. Food is dirt cheap and dilicious in TW, and one don't need the crazy medical insurance to get healthcare in TW. I will leave the Roman Empire thing as that is so political.

 

[Constellar]

I always wonder where does this over confidence comes from

CCP claims to try invade TW since like 1972, there was a joke that the grand pa of someone warns about CCP invasion when he's young, now he's a grandpa and the invasion is likely not be seen before his grandchild become a grandpa...

And better quality of living is another big question. the QoL generally in TW isn't far from USA, especially for those who are really talented and high rank in TSMC. Food is dirt cheap and dilicious in TW, and one don't need the crazy medical insurance to get healthcare in TW. I will leave the Roman Empire thing as that is so political.

Okay, the biggest part of one's life is the home he lives in. The following picture is the apartment rented by a TSMC employee in Taiwan Taichung City:

The following home is an actual house bought by an engineer (program manager) I know at TSMC Phoenix just four years ago for $580k (but admittedly it's on redfin @ $700k now):

Both are middle-class for their respective countries. One is 1,500 square feet; the other 2,800 square feet. One is in a cramped and inconvenient high rise; the other a veritable palace in many parts of the world. Granted, it may be a little more expensive than most middle class homes, but not out of reach for a professional or engineer in Phoenix.
And unless you're like sick all the time, who really cares about medical care? Sure Taiwan has the best in the world (or was that Korea?), but you're only going to use it once every 20 years or so. I haven't been to the doctors other than routine exams on over 15 years.

 

[YSCCC]

Okay, the biggest part of one's life is the home he lives in. The following picture is the apartment rented by a TSMC employee in Taiwan Taichung City:

The following home is an actual house bought by an engineer (program manager) I know at TSMC Phoenix just four years ago for $580k (but admittedly it's on redfin @ $700k now):

Both are middle-class for their respective countries. One is 1,500 square feet; the other 2,800 square feet. One is in a cramped and inconvenient high rise; the other a veritable palace in many parts of the world. Granted, it may be a little more expensive than most middle class homes, but not out of reach for a professional or engineer in Phoenix.
And unless you're like sick all the time, who really cares about medical care? Sure Taiwan has the best in the world (or was that Korea?), but you're only going to use it once every 20 years or so. I haven't been to the doctors other than routine exams on over 15 years.

That indeed is not attractive to a lot of Asian, lifestyle is different, the requirement to tidy the garden, the convinenance of buying stuffs or getting to restaurants, cost of fiber internet (much, much cheaper for high rise than in a house), so on and so forth. 1,500 square feet is plenty for a family already, and things like Phoenix can flood the whole city in a hurricane and ruin your cars, house etc can also be a factor.

And speaking for medical care you have to be too young and naive to not even consider those. Once every 20 years of life saving medical care could be a bit factor, you cannot regret when you didn't get the chance to have the essentially free medical care. And for middle aged middle class, those are legit concerns. Sure you can still be very confident, that's your personal believe.

I just stated that as an Asian what a lot of us think about ever migrating to USA, a few great engineer? Sure individuals could think the house and social welfare in Phoenix is better and decided to pull the trigger, but enough skilled employees to essentially make moving the whole TSMC to USA and ditch Taiwan as a whole? It's easier to day dream, the bottom workforce who can't remotely afford the apartment or house is the ones who can make it work (And why Huawei pulling a few high ranked TSMC ex employee failed to make a TSMC in China). In order to make that happen, the cost to persuade all those employees to bring their family to go to USA will be astronomical, while currently TSMC cost like... I forgot, something like $20,000 a wafer? moving whole to USA will easily jack the cost up to $50,000 or more if you want the same yeild, O, and remember to lower the working hour etc. limitations and the guilds.