News Thanks to Miners and Scalpers, eBay Pricing for Ampere, RDNA2 GPUs Continue to Rise

[hotaru.hino]

The easiest solution is the one that was before, way back when GPUs were only used for games. Someone said 3dfx, yeah those times. If the GPU dedicated for gaming is only good for that, has only functions for games, no one else would buy it, but gamers.

The only way to do that, like seriously do that, is to regress all of the GPU technology developed in the past two decades. Otherwise software and maybe even hardware lockouts won't prevent a determined hacker to get the thing to do what they want. Case in point, so-called "Mining only" GPUs can actually run games and people have gotten Quadro divers to run on GeForce GPUs by simply removing a tiny SMT component.

I said nothing of ramping up production overnight. Which is exactly why they have teams analyzing and anticipating demand - so they can secure manufacturing capacity months in advance. That was the entire point of my comment - not that they could wave a magic wand and magically ramp up production to solve the problem now.

Manufacturers almost never want downtime on their facilities. Being able to anticipate higher demand in the future means keeping some capacity on idle. And that idle capacity is lost money because you know, it could be used to build chips.

Building a new fab or upgrading an existing one still takes years before it can reach commercial manufacturing capability.

 

[spongiemaster]

Current limits? Sure. But that's sort of the point of properly anticipating demands - to ramp up production accordingly ahead of time. I highly doubt AMD or nVidia's Fab contracts are for 100% of the fab's manufacturing capacity. Had they anticipated demand earlier, they likely could have negotiated increased capacity. Again, not saying they are the main party at fault, but I do think it played a role. It's also not something I have any insider information on... so if there's info out there that I'm unaware of, I'm also completely okay admitting I'm off my rocker =P

It takes years to build cutting edge new fabs and TSMC isn't going to build one just because AMD requests more wafers than TSMC wants to provide to AMD. TSMC will raise prices as they have recently. The fab that TSMC announced for Arizona last year is estimated to begin production for revenue in 2024 if everything stays on schedule. No one could have predicted current market conditions in 2016 to prepare for this. Of course fabs run at near 100% capacity all the time. Anything below that is lost revenue. There is no financial/business reason to intentionally run your fabs below potential capacity.

The bigger problem right now is that mining has created basically infinite demand. It doesn't matter how many GPU's are produced, miners are going to buy them. The more miners buy, the more money they make, the more cards they buy. Buying a GPU to these companies is literally equivalent to buying a legal money printing machine. Who is going to reach a certain number and then stop buying money making machines? No one. The only way to reduce demand is for the price of crypto currency to tank and make GPU mining not profitable any more.

 

[VforV]

Talk about entitlement syndrome. It's entertainment, not your daily bread . You can wait a few more months for it. Stop crying.

Years.

 

[Endymio]

The bigger problem right now is that mining has created basically infinite demand. It doesn't matter how many GPU's are produced, miners are going to buy them. The more miners buy, the more money they make, the more cards they buy.

No, that isn't how it works at all. The more that miners mine, the harder it becomes to make money by mining. Negative feedback -- by design.

There are no "infinite demands" in the world of economics.

 

[Endymio]

You mean [had they predicted] the pandemic that started a year ago? Yes.

Such contracts are usually negotiated a year or so out. And had you predicted last February just how much the pandemic was going to reduce supply and increase demand in the consumer electronics sector, you'd be on your yacht in the Caribbean right now, surrounded by <Mod Edit> blondes, not posting here about the GPU shortage.

 

[hotaru.hino]

No, that isn't how it works at all. The more that miners mine, the harder it becomes to make money by mining. Negative feedback -- by design.

Which you solve by throwing more GPUs at the problem. As long as the value of the currency continues to outpace the cost, it's still profitable to do so.

 

[Endymio]

Which you solve by throwing more GPUs at the problem. As long as the value of the currency continues to outpace the cost, it's still profitable to do so.

You're missing the point. The more GPUs other people throw at the problem, the harder it becomes for you to make money at mining. Work-based mining follows a logarithmic curve of diminishing returns, by design.

 

[spongiemaster]

No, that isn't how it works at all. The more that miners mine, the harder it becomes to make money by mining. Negative feedback -- by design.

There are no "infinite demands" in the world of economics.

The pedantic economics guru is at it again. Obviously demand isn't literally infinite. It only becomes harder to make money with increased mining difficulty if the value of what you are mining stays the same or decreases. The value of bitcoin is up 60% in the last 2 weeks. That is FAR in excess of the rate of mining difficult increase.

 

[LolaGT]

No consumer is entitled to any product more than another consumer.
People whining that miners are ruining the market for them are laughable. A retailer doesn't care as long as the payment goes through, and they should not.
If you are willing to pay the inflated price, then you are the real enemy in this fluster cluck.
Get over it, wait until demand drops. Go watch tv, or better yet, get a console and play some games on that big screen and have some fun
It isn't your right to buy a new GPU, but you can get one eventually. Wait out the storm.

 

[Endymio]

Obviously demand isn't literally infinite.

But that is what you said. If you use the proper word in the proper context, you won't have to worry about people correcting you. You also said, "It doesn't matter how many GPU's are produced, miners are going to buy them. The more miners buy, the more money they make, the more cards they buy."

Both these statements are false as well. Perhaps you already knew that, and simply used the phrases for their emotional appeal?

It only becomes harder to make money with increased mining difficulty if the value of what you are mining stays the same or decreases. The value of bitcoin is up 60% in the last 2 weeks.

Sigh, but you don't pay off a mining GPU in two weeks time. That cost must be amortized over a more lengthy period, a period in which Bitcoin or Ethereum is not rising that dramatically, and may even be falling.

 

[spongiemaster]

But that is what you said. If you use the proper word in the proper context, you won't have to worry about people correcting you. You also said, "It doesn't matter how many GPU's are produced, miners are going to buy them. The more miners buy, the more money they make, the more cards they buy."

Both these statements are false as well. Perhaps you already knew that, and simply used the phrases for their emotional appeal?

Sigh, but you don't pay off a mining GPU in two weeks time. That cost must be amortized over a more lengthy period, a period in which Bitcoin or Ethereum is not rising that dramatically, and may even be falling.

Stop living in a textbook. The real world doesn't operate that way. Bitcoin is up over 350% since October. Anyone who bought 3000 series card at release and has been mining since, has been pulling profits for a while now. We're talking a few months to recoup costs, not years or decades.

 

[kyzarvs]

So on the one hand Toms is appealing to the gamers, but on the other encouraging mining https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/how-to/optimize-your-gpu-for-ethereum-mining

 

[Flayed]

What annoys me about the mining craze is all the thousands of tons of coal getting burned pointlessly so people can participate in a complicated tech lottery.

 

[cryoburner]

You're missing the point. The more GPUs other people throw at the problem, the harder it becomes for you to make money at mining. Work-based mining follows a logarithmic curve of diminishing returns, by design.

The problem with this view is that when one cryptocurrency starts to become unprofitable to generate, the miners just move on to another. At best, you might get some downtime for a little while in between while they are unsure of which one will become the next fad.

Cryptocurrency is little more than a Ponzi scheme, and provides no actual useful service that can't be performed far more efficiently by other monetary systems. It's terrible for the environment, burning tons of energy to perform useless math problems of increasing difficulty, and the value of these currencies is completely speculative in nature, rising and dropping dramatically based on something as little as a random internet post.

Eventually, I suspect we will see these currencies regulated to the point of losing most of their attractiveness, but mining operations are trying to print as much money as they can in the short term, so that they can ditch it before that happens.

...or better yet, get a console and play some games on that big screen and have some fun

In case you didn't notice, the new consoles are also in very short supply, as their chips are being manufactured on the same process as AMD's graphics cards and CPUs, and likewise utilize GDDR6, which is getting to be in short supply due in part to all the demand for graphics cards. The going rate for a Series X or S on ebay is currently almost 50% over MSRP, and the PS5 is nearly double its MSRP. I do suspect that those prices will probably improve sooner than graphics cards though, since Microsoft and Sony likely have agreements in place to ensure at least some level of supply. That is, assuming that hardware doesn't also get repurposed for mining. >_>

If the GPU dedicated for gaming is only good for that, has only functions for games, no one else would buy it, but gamers.

There should be a class of GPUs only for gaming and no extra features/functions. BUT that's never going to happen again, nvidia and AMD would loose too much money from multiple POVs if they would do that... so yeah.

The thing is that some of the "functions for games" tend to be the same functions that mining makes use of. I don't think there is really a clear dividing line between the two, and it would probably be a futile effort to design a "gaming-only" graphics card, especially without breaking compatibility with existing games. Many cryptocurrencies are designed specifically to target the capabilities of common graphics equipment to avoid having specialized equipment built for them, and their designers would probably just change the algorithms to target the capabilities of any "gaming only" hardware.

 

[g-unit1111]

The scalpers and bots can go... well I probably shouldn't finish that sentence.

 

[vanadiel007]

No, it isn't. There are no simple solutions to complex problems like these. If Nvidia cut off every board partner that was making deals with mining companies, they'd likely have no board partners left. Ask 3dfx how well dumping all their board partners worked out for them.

3dfx was not in the position both AMD and Nvidia are. These board partners are going to go where to get their GPU's? Intel? Don't think so, they will have to comply or have no product to sell.
You see the articles on this and other outlets about crypto miners. There was even a guy who obviously had more money than brains, and installed a bunch of RTX cards in the trunk of his BMW because he could and wanted to get those looking for cards drool more. Now how did that guy get a hold of all those cards? Clearly from an board partner who sold it to that doofus instead of people who will actually use the card. In my opinion all reviewers should stop reviewing cards and send them back to AMD and Nvidia. But they don't stop reviewing cards either. Stop reporting, stop reviewing, and pretend there's no new cards. You can't realistically get them anyways. All you are doing is adding to the problem.

 

[RemmRun]

The card I bought last year for $130 is now $400. Someone is making a serious profit. I won't be able to upgrade in a few years if prices like this are the new norm.

 

[vanadiel007]

The card I bought last year for $130 is now $400. Someone is making a serious profit.

Yes, retail stores are. Same thing happened before with 1000 series cards.
The only way to really fix this is to put both Nivida and AMD under immense pressure to fix this issue of demand far outpacing supply.
I am honestly starting to think Nvidia and AMD are doing this on purpose, hold supply back to increase profits and jack up MSRP prices.

Too much money involved, nobody is going to do anything.

 

[escksu]

Yes, retail stores are. Same thing happened before with 1000 series cards.
The only way to really fix this is to put both Nivida and AMD under immense pressure to fix this issue of demand far outpacing supply.
I am honestly starting to think Nvidia and AMD are doing this on purpose, hold supply back to increase profits and jack up MSRP prices.

Too much money involved, nobody is going to do anything.

ITs not them. The root cause is limited capacity at TSMC and Samsung. Why? Because of mobile phones. Bulk of the capacity goes into manufacturing mobile phone chips and memory.

 

[escksu]

The problem with this view is that when one cryptocurrency starts to become unprofitable to generate, the miners just move on to another. At best, you might get some downtime for a little while in between while they are unsure of which one will become the next fad.

Cryptocurrency is little more than a Ponzi scheme, and provides no actual useful service that can't be performed far more efficiently by other monetary systems. It's terrible for the environment, burning tons of energy to perform useless math problems of increasing difficulty, and the value of these currencies is completely speculative in nature, rising and dropping dramatically based on something as little as a random internet post.

Eventually, I suspect we will see these currencies regulated to the point of losing most of their attractiveness, but mining operations are trying to print as much money as they can in the short term, so that they can ditch it before that happens.


In case you didn't notice, the new consoles are also in very short supply, as their chips are being manufactured on the same process as AMD's graphics cards and CPUs, and likewise utilize GDDR6, which is getting to be in short supply due in part to all the demand for graphics cards. The going rate for a Series X or S on ebay is currently almost 50% over MSRP, and the PS5 is nearly double its MSRP. I do suspect that those prices will probably improve sooner than graphics cards though, since Microsoft and Sony likely have agreements in place to ensure at least some level of supply. That is, assuming that hardware doesn't also get repurposed for mining. >_>


The thing is that some of the "functions for games" tend to be the same functions that mining makes use of. I don't think there is really a clear dividing line between the two, and it would probably be a futile effort to design a "gaming-only" graphics card, especially without breaking compatibility with existing games. Many cryptocurrencies are designed specifically to target the capabilities of common graphics equipment to avoid having specialized equipment built for them, and their designers would probably just change the algorithms to target the capabilities of any "gaming only" hardware.

How is gaming any better compared to mining?? Gaming does nothing productive and uses alot of power as well.

Gone are the days when GPU is primarily used for gaming. Gone are the days when gamers makes up the bulk of GPU customers. Today, Sales of GPU for mining is even higher than that for gaming.

 

[hotaru.hino]

How is gaming any better compared to mining?? Gaming does nothing productive and uses alot of power as well.

Gaming provides benefits in mental health, socializing, among other things.

Mining crypto is just gambling.

 

[Flayed]

How is gaming any better compared to mining?? Gaming does nothing productive and uses alot of power as well.

One gamer cannot game on 200 graphics cards 24/7 365 days per year ...

 

[escksu]

Gaming provides benefits in mental health, socializing, among other things.

Mining crypto is just gambling.

Its people's own free will to do what they want to their computers. So, who are you or I to tell them what should or should not be done? Remember that they paid real money for the hardware and the power. They didn't steal nor rob.

 

[escksu]

What annoys me about the mining craze is all the thousands of tons of coal getting burned pointlessly so people can participate in a complicated tech lottery.

lol.....quit whining..

 

[watzupken]

With cryptocurrency prices increasing, it is becoming increasingly lucrative to sell GPUs to miners because miners are likely more willing to foot the high prices since they are using it to make money. So I don’t expect prices to come down or scalping to die down anytime soon, just like previous GPU price increase due to mining. It’s amidst all these desperation for a product that makes scalping thrive.