The Most Common DDR DRAM Myths Debunked

[alidan]

i just want to say this, i don't believe there will be much need for most people to have more than 8gb of ram unless programs get some serious bloat going on. even in games, there is little reason to have more than 4gb dedicated to the game if its handled correctly even if you use all 4k textures (which also don't need to exist because how often will a single texture have all 4k of its texture on scree to the point you would see the pixelation)

the bloat could be serious though... i personally use my computer with 8gb of ram as though it had 32gb, so in my case i could easily use more, but i'm not most people, i essentially live on the compute and internet.

its true that a long time ago if someone said 2gb or 4gb was enough and you wouldn't need more, they weren't forward thinking, but now... unless some serious bloat happens i can't see the average person needing more than 16gb ever... also, please note that i make a distinction between need and could use. i personally need 24gb (stuck on 8gb because ddr2 as 4gb sticks would cost more than a new computer and 16gb because windows 7 limit) and could easily use 64gb.

_____________________

"can't see the average person needing more than 16gb ever." , saw very similar quotes from many about 5-6 years ago but they were saying 4GB, people just continue to use systems more and more and software (and games) are using DRAM more and more.

back when people said 4gb would be the most people would need, windows could boot up with less than 500mb ram use.
fire fox had (maybe still has, i dont use it much anymore) one thread for the entire browser and handles ram fairly well, apposed to chrome where new tabs each have their own instance, the bloat is there, but i cant see programs doing worse than this without serious bloat.

right now, outside of photoshop or vegas, the most ram intensive thing i use (gaming aside) is mpc-hc, and mpc-hc 64, 64bit does not have extra filters on it like the 32 bit version does, and eats 500mb, where as the 32bit comes close to 1gb with 1080p content. even if you scale that linearly to 4k that's just 4gb

now chrome, my computer doesnt like more than 149 processes running and if i have 150+ its risking a hard crash. for me i can get processes on a clean boot down to about 80, so worst case scenario (right now an hour long 1080p youtube is 270mb) if you just stacked 69 1080p videos on top of each other, that comes to just under 19gb, this would be the most practical to normal people but unrealistic.

gameing, i fear is going to bloat for bloat sake at some point instead of optimizing how craps handled, case in point, look at skyrim hd textures apposed to well made fan retextures using the non hd limitations.

i just cant imagine what, at least for a normal person would eat more than 16gb of ram without serious bloat or stupidity.

 

[Tradesman1]

As was mentioned above, these statements have been ongoing basically since computers arrived on the scene. Any many people still wear 8GB is more than you'll ever need even though DRAM use continues to rise in apps, games, etc. Prebuilt computers are/have long been stingy with installed DRAM, but looking at ads today the bulk come with 6-8GB and many available w/ 16GB already. For power users 2011 has been around for awhile offering a capacity of 64GB and in the 2011 v3 up to 128GB of DRAM. 16GB sticks are becoming more available, that would be 64GB for Skylake, due anytime now.

If you look through the forums, you see thread after thread from people with 2-3 year old rigs that saw these "4GB or 8GB is all you'll ever need" type statements and what are they doing? Upgrading their DRAM 😉

 

[tsnor]

on a related topic, is there any data on cache hit rates with new boards/cpus?

I look at mainframe cache hit ratio data all the time. It varies hugely with workload. To find cache hit ratios on modern CPUs you need to specify a workload then discuss the cache hit ratio in the various caches. Then you'd want to specify hyper-threading on or off. Since hyper-threading has two workloads sharing the same core unique caches you mostly get lower cache hit ratios unless the cache footprint of the workload is tiny.

Aside, except for really big x86 enterprise servers, MBs no longer have cache, its all on the processor chip. Mainframes can have over 1GB of cache on the SC ship that is effectively on the equivalent of the mainframe MB. I used to have a P100 with 'cache on a stick' that is deployed in a separate MB slot next to the CPU. That structure would not work with modern CPUs, the latency to get to the cache is speed of light limited, and the COAST cache was pretty far form the CPU.

 

[michaelkm8]

I just ordered some Mushkin E.R. 2133 MHz yesterday, go figure, and then today I saw this article. Bought 2 sets of 2x4GB sticks instead of the one set of 2x8GB sticks. Should I return the four sticks I bought and get the two sticks? Or is this a small issue? Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Tradesman1]

If it's a snap together clamshell casing for the DRAM can pop it open and try them, if so and any problems we can try some voltage/timing adjustments, if the case is a sealed case, might want to exchange to be on the safe side

 

[michaelkm8]

If it's a snap together clamshell casing for the DRAM can pop it open and try them, if so and any problems we can try some voltage/timing adjustments, if the case is a sealed case, might want to exchange to be on the safe side

This is my first build so I don't know how to test see if items works. What should i do and look for when i get the ram?

 

[Tradesman1]

Pop them in and start it up, might want to initially do the build on a table to ensure all work together before putting it together in the case, have a troubleshooting guide that you can use to try it initially on a bench/table here:

http://www.tomshardware.com/faq/id-1753671/bench-troubleshooting.html

 

[michaelkm8]

Pop them in and start it up, might want to initially do the build on a table to ensure all work together before putting it together in the case, have a troubleshooting guide that you can use to try it initially on a bench/table here:

http://www.tomshardware.com/faq/id-1753671/bench-troubleshooting.html

Thanks.

 

[Tradesman1]

No worries 😉

 

[edknuff]

OMG, my head hurts...

 

[Tradesman1]

OMG, my head hurts...

___________

Take two aspirins and don't call me in the morning 😉

 

[littleleo]

OMG, my head hurts...

___________

Take two aspirins and don't call me in the morning 😉

Don't you mean email you in the morning. Of course you could put the lime in the coconut and drink it all up! Oh wait that is for a belly ache, lol.

 

[Tradesman1]

😉 After the lime in the coconut, you add some rum, that might get rid of the headache - unless you take too much, then may give you a headache in the morning 😉

 

[littleleo]

Then you have to drink more rum in the morning, add some crushed mint leaves and Mojito mix and drink it all down.

How did we get to Mojitos from RAM?

 

[Tradesman1]

Helping Ed with his headache after reading the article 😉

 

[littleleo]

Did he ever get his question answered? I'm so confused, where is that coconut?

 

[JackNaylorPE]

JackNaylorPE

Comment - “Some if these could use a bit more detail.”

Always and forever true. In this particular piece, many items had more detail, examples and explanations as written. However I have no say as what they do with the piece once accepted. Originally it was one piece, with a working title of “DDR3 – FAQs and Fiction”, (have no idea where they came up with adding “and Troubleshooting Guide”, a guide to troubleshooting would be a step by step thing).

I appreciate the comments (and have a feeling I’ll be explaining some of these over and over, as well as others 😉 )

I think I knew for the most part where you were going .... A second set of eyes I think would have helped. When writing we tend to write from our PoV rather than the intended audience. When writing for publications, I like to "sleep on it" and look at it again the next day and try and put on the mindset of someone looking at the issue for the 1st time.

It's like the "dumbest idea ever" in the tech industry is to have knowledgeable folks write User Guides. New users have no idea what they are talking about. When the manual says "go to the wuhdahbar and click on ....". That's great if you know how to bring up the "wuhndahbar".

23 years of using AutoCAD and I am stumped by the each new release.....tho have to say 2016 was great compared to 2015. Adobe is one that really drives me nutz as they use different terms for common items like "find" instead of "search"

 

[JackNaylorPE]

"There Are Only A Few DIMM Manufacturers" .... given the limited 2 sentence attention this subject got, the topic should have been eliminated.

Can you elaborate on this one a bit more? Are you talking like the actual manufacturers that really assemble the DRAM or are we talking OEMs like Corsair that resell that already manufactured RAM?

i was referring to the fact that the topic had very little information following it. What I was saying that if you are going to have that as a topic, the questions you are asking are examples that I would expect to see following the topic heading. While MoBo reviews and GFX card reviews often list the components used, this info is noticeable absent from RAM reviews.

Corsair is a reseller, not an OEM. I found it particularly annoying for example when vendors put out RAM sets for review and then switch what's inside to cheaper componentry after the reviews are done. This is very true with monitors where a cheaper panel replaces the more expensive on that went out to reviewers. For example Corsair VP's originally used Hynix modules ... after version 4.51 IIRC, they switched to cheaper supplier wreaking a bit of havoc on unsuspecting users who later decided to add 2 more modules.

I don't know about others, but i always said "all ddr3 is the same" meaning it doesnt matter what kit you get, if there are 2 kits with the same timings and speed ratings, get the cheaper one. They will perform basically the same. The myth brings up a misconception i never thought about, i hope i wasnt confusing people and spreading the rumor

If the topic heading was what you just stated, I would not have commented

"All DDR3 is the same"

and

"All DDR3 with the same timings and speed ratings is the same"

Are very different statements,

I find who's label is on it and who put the chips on the PCB are almost meaningless.... the biggest impediment to RAM compatibility when adding more RAM is who made the modules. Of course I am not suggesting two different modules of the same manufacturer will work; I am saying that if I am looking for a distributor cap for my car, I am less concerned about what model car it came out of than whether the actual distributor manufacturer and model number are the same. Just getting one "from a Chevy" is not enough.

As in the example above .... you will have a lot harder time mixing

Corsair DDR3-2400 CAS10 Version 4.51 (10-12-12-28) w/ Corsair DDR3-2400 CAS10 Version 4.53 (10-12-12-31)

than you will w/

Corsair DDR3-2400 CAS10 Version 4.51 (10-12-12-28) w/ Mushkin DDR3-2400 CAS10 (10-12-12-28)

Up thru 4.51 Corsair used the same Hynix modules as Mushkin which gives them the exact same performance characteristics and timings making it an easier match .... except for the aesthetics of course

I have one question though, since not all dual channel configs work together. What if I wanted to add more RAM to my system? Would I buy the exact same kit and hope it works out well?

Always best to start out looking at same make and model number tho that's no guarantee. See Corsair / Mushkin example above. Try and find out if they are still using the same modules..... if so, I have never had them "not work" tho it is certainly possible as pair of sticks could pass at a certain voltage and yet might not be able to be stable w/ 4 even of they came off the production line one after another.

I'm not sure how one 'performance' ram stick would be any 'stronger' than another at the same speed/timings. If timings were different, maybe. Also, it's very difficult to overclock ram and get to even the next full speed rating. Even if someone is successful it's about as useless as upping the baseclock. Ram performance real world has diminishing returns above ddr3 1600.

It's there .... you will see this in a lot of GFX card articles. For example, the Asus DCII 780 had two versions, one with Samsung and one with Elpida, the Samsung models were notably superior and better overclockers. MSI 970s have both Samsung and Hynix modules and in GDDR, Samsung us superior.

However, especially in the competitive overclocking community, RAM that can withstand higher voltages is greatly desired and for this reason, these folks seek out the premium Hynix modules. Note that Hynix doesn't also make low end stuff, they do....it's a very poular OEM supplier to store shelf boxes. Mushkin uses Hynix in their premium Redline series, Corsair used it in the Vengeance Pro and Dominator series early one and Gskill used them in their Trident series. Of the 3, the Redlines are the on;y one I can verify are still being used at 2400

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7364/memory-scaling-on-haswell

Hynix MFR based memory kits are used by extreme overclockers to hit the high MHz numbers. Recently YoungPro from Australia took one of these memory sticks and hit DDR3-4400 MHz (13-31-31 sub-timings) to reach #1 in the world in pure MHz.

 

[JackNaylorPE]

I just ordered some Mushkin E.R. 2133 MHz yesterday, go figure, and then today I saw this article. Bought 2 sets of 2x4GB sticks instead of the one set of 2x8GB sticks. Should I return the four sticks I bought and get the two sticks? Or is this a small issue? Any advice is appreciated.

I would....tho the chances are not big ...

1. They may not work together on Day 1

2. They may not work together on day 31 in which case you can't return to vendor

3. On day whatever, you have no guarantee from the manufacturer at all that the 4 sticks will work together.

4. The 4 sticks puts an extra heat load on your CPU which may affect your overclock.

 

[Tradesman1]

In reference to getting sticks with the 'same' chips, in Item 2 of the article, a decent size chunk of it was cut, which addressed the issue of chips and the binning they go through, the article mentions the beginning of this portion

"Let’s take a closer theoretical look at this."

Then came the part that was cut


"A single production lot may result in say 1,000 memory chips. These are then separated or binned to a number of levels. We’ll say to a fair degree of maybe 4 levels – A through D. We’ll say A (200 chips) is entry level, B (350 chips) is a little better, C (300 chips) even better and D (150 chips) are the best chips. They then sell these chips to two separate manufacturers; we’ll sell them to Wiley Coyote’s favorite manufacture ACME and the rest to our second company who we’ll call Deluxe DRAM (a highly rated company….. Of that production lot ACME might buy all the A chips (for the lower prices) most of the B and a few of the C chips, then the Deluxe DRAM company buys the rest, so each company has an equal amount of chips 500.
ACME get their chips and decides they can make 60 sticks so they simply make 15 ea. of 1333, 1600, 1866, and 2133….and start with A binned chips and use them till they run out, then move to the B sticks and on up. Since they bought very few of the better chips, then some of their 2133 sticks are using C rated chips, most of their 1866 sticks are made with a combination of B-C chips then finally the 1333 and 1600 sticks are from a combination of A and B chips.
Across the street Deluxe DRAM takes their new chips and further separates them to their own specs and they might end up after the binning process with 5 separate groups of chips, adding a E category to the existing, they then make 1333 sticks out of the A chips, 1600 out of the B etc. and have some bonus high end 2400 sticks.
When they each go to make their sticks, Deluxe DRAM gets high end PCBs and solder, and ACME (while I won’t say they buy cheap, but they might), takes a different route and buys different PCBs and a different brand of solder. Also each use their own production equipment and have their own specs as to how much solder is used, the temps they have things set at etc.
Once the sticks are made, each manufacturer then takes the sticks and test them as to their tolerances and match/test the sticks further to a point where they know the sticks that go together in a given package will play together – and they guarantee those sticks in that package to play together. (It’s possible that they might even plan to get say four 4 stick sets out of a given production lot – and not be able to find four sets of 4 sticks that will play together. (In than given scenario, you can see where if you buy two packages of 2 sticks they might not play, and is why the manufacturers won’t guarantee mixing sets"

Hope this helps explain why and how you may still run into problems.

As this was originally in the article as written, in the "Just add DRAM section" it wasn't repeated in the "All DDR3 Is The Same" section.

 

[Flashthepyro]

10/10
best RAM 101 guide ever.

 

[Tradesman1]

Thanx 😉

 

[LucaFire]

Absolutely love this article; has helped me to no end!

 

[Tradesman1]

Glad to hear, many are linking to it in the forums for background and reference