The Noble - a PC-rated Aristocrat

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The Aristocrat in the DMG doesn't really work for characters like
Denethor. So here we have something with a bit more substance. I've
tried to imbue it with the sense of undefinable natural superiority
over the common herd.

Constructive comments are welcome.

The Noble
A PC-quality Aristocrat

d8 hp, 4 skill points, good BAB, good Will and Fort.
All armour & shield, all simple & martial weapons.

The aristocrat's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery
(Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate
(Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis),
Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language, Spot
(Wis), Swim (Str), and Survival (Wis).

Level Shtick
1 Fine Breeding, Voice of Authority
2 Self-assured
3 Voice of Command
4
5 Fine Breeding, Aura of Courage
6
7 Natural Leader, Aura (of alignment)
8
9 Speak Loudly and Clearly
10 Fine Breeding
11 Inspiring Leader
12
13 Rebuke
14
15 Fine Breeding, Ancestral Knowledge
16
17 Dominate
18
19 Divine Right
20 Fine Breeding

Fine Breeding (Ex): The noble gains a permanent +1 to any attribute of
her choice. This is essentially the same as (and in addition to) the
attribute bonus gained every 4th character level.

Voice of Authority (Ex): The noble gains a bonus equal to her class
level to any Diplomacy check, and a similar penalty to any attempt to
pretend to be one of the common throng (eg by Disguise or Bluff).

Self-assured (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a noble gains a Resistance
bonus equal to half her class level (round down) on saving throws
against any mind-affecting effect.

Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a noble is immune to
fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a
+4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

Voice of Command (Sp): Beginning at 5th level, a Noble can cast the
Command spell a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma
bonus. The save DC is 10 + half her class level + her Charisma bonus.

Natural Leader: At 7th level, a noble gains the Leadership feat. If
she already has it, she adds her Class Level to her Leadership score.

Aura (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the noble's bearing is so
unambiguous that she radates an Alignment Aura as though a cleric of
half her class level.

Speak Loudly and Clearly (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the Noble's
authority is so undeniable that she can be understood by any creature
of Int 3 or better. This applies only to speech, and does not enable
the noble to understand the other creature. It does include her Voice
of Command ability.

Inspiring Leader (Su): Beginning at 11th level, the noble can Inspire
Courage (+1 bonus) or Inspire Competence (+2 bonus) (as the Bardic
Music ability) a total number of times per day equal to 3 + her
Charisma bonus. This requires a brief speech (1 round ME action, no
AoO). The effect lasts one round per class level.

Rebuke (Sp): Beginning at 13th level, a noble may Rebuke any living
creature in the same way that an evil cleric of half her level (round
down) rebukes undead. She can do this a number of times per day equal
to 3 + her Charisma bonus. This is a mind-affecting ability.

Ancestral Knowledge (Sp): Beginning at 15th level, a noble can draw on
the knowledge of her ancestors. This is equivalent to the Legend Lore
spell, and can be performed once per day. Casting time 10 minutes; no
material component or focus is required.

Dominate (Sp): Beginning at 17th level, a noble's Voice of Command
acts as the Dominate Person (or Dominate Monster) spell on the target.

Divine Right (Su): Beginning at 19th level, a noble's aura of
pre-eminent authority is so great that she is immune to any
alignment-based damage or effects (eg she is unaffected by spells such
as Protection from Evil, Blasphemy and Holy Smite, and takes no damage
from Smite Evil). She can use any relic or intelligent item without
penalty, regardless of its alignment or divine allegiance. She is
unaffected by Divine Aura from any deity. [Or something? I don't have
the DDG, so have no idea about how gods work. This is Aragorn facing
down Sauron via Palantir].


--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

 

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Jim Davies wrote:
> The Aristocrat in the DMG doesn't really work for characters like
> Denethor. So here we have something with a bit more substance. I've
> tried to imbue it with the sense of undefinable natural superiority
> over the common herd.

Just being an aristocrat puts you way ahead of the herd (commoners).

>
> Constructive comments are welcome.
>
> The Noble
> A PC-quality Aristocrat
>
> d8 hp, 4 skill points, good BAB, good Will and Fort.

I think 4 skill points isn't enough. Nobles had more schooling than
any one else, their skills should reflect that.

All armour & shield, all simple & martial weapons.
>> Fine Breeding (Ex): The noble gains a permanent +1 to any attribute of
> her choice. This is essentially the same as (and in addition to) the
> attribute bonus gained every 4th character level.
>

Interesting concept. In reality it's more like too much inbreeding,
ought to get a -1 (or more) to something

> Voice of Authority (Ex): The noble gains a bonus equal to her class
> level to any Diplomacy check, and a similar penalty to any attempt to
> pretend to be one of the common throng (eg by Disguise or Bluff).
>

That's way too much of a bonus. There's no other class or prestige
class (that I can think of) that gives anything close to this kind of
skill bonus. And slumming is a common 'good' king thing to do. Don't
like it in either direction.

> Self-assured (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a noble gains a Resistance
> bonus equal to half her class level (round down) on saving throws
> against any mind-affecting effect.
>

Again, wizard controlling a noble from behind the scenes is a common
fantasy element. Doesn't fit.

>
> Voice of Command (Sp): Beginning at 5th level, a Noble can cast the
> Command spell a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma
> bonus. The save DC is 10 + half her class level + her Charisma bonus.

I think you need to add that these don't work on Nobles of equal or
higher level.

>
> Natural Leader: At 7th level, a noble gains the Leadership feat. If
> she already has it, she adds her Class Level to her Leadership score.
>

*Whistles* That's waaaaaay too much of a bonus on an already broken
feat (in some people's opinion anyway, not entirely sure myself). I'd
allow doubling the Non-Cohorts or some such.

> Aura (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the noble's bearing is so
> unambiguous that she radates an Alignment Aura as though a cleric of
> half her class level.
>
> Speak Loudly and Clearly (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the Noble's
> authority is so undeniable that she can be understood by any creature
> of Int 3 or better. This applies only to speech, and does not enable
> the noble to understand the other creature. It does include her Voice
> of Command ability.

Speaking loudly doesn't help. Doesn't really make sense.

>
> Inspiring Leader (Su): Beginning at 11th level, the noble can Inspire
> Courage (+1 bonus) or Inspire Competence (+2 bonus) (as the Bardic
> Music ability) a total number of times per day equal to 3 + her
> Charisma bonus. This requires a brief speech (1 round ME action, no
> AoO). The effect lasts one round per class level.
>

This is good. More on this later.

> Rebuke (Sp): Beginning at 13th level, a noble may Rebuke any living
> creature in the same way that an evil cleric of half her level (round
> down) rebukes undead. She can do this a number of times per day equal
> to 3 + her Charisma bonus. This is a mind-affecting ability.
>

Uh. No way. Rebuke is way too useful to be allowed to be applied to
living creatures.

> Ancestral Knowledge (Sp): Beginning at 15th level, a noble can draw on
> the knowledge of her ancestors. This is equivalent to the Legend Lore
> spell, and can be performed once per day. Casting time 10 minutes; no
> material component or focus is required.
>

Good again.

> Dominate (Sp): Beginning at 17th level, a noble's Voice of Command
> acts as the Dominate Person (or Dominate Monster) spell on the target.
>

Dominate seems a bit much, they don't literally pull the strings.
Charm or perhaps Geas is more appropriate.

> Divine Right (Su): Beginning at 19th level, a noble's aura of
> pre-eminent authority is so great that she is immune to any
> alignment-based damage or effects (eg she is unaffected by spells such
> as Protection from Evil, Blasphemy and Holy Smite, and takes no damage
> from Smite Evil). She can use any relic or intelligent item without
> penalty, regardless of its alignment or divine allegiance. She is
> unaffected by Divine Aura from any deity. [Or something? I don't have
> the DDG, so have no idea about how gods work. This is Aragorn facing
> down Sauron via Palantir].
>

You effects don't fit with the idea again IMHO. Someone who had divine
right should be *more* like thier alignment not less.

In any case I think there is a good Noble class in core... The Bard.
Just take oratory for your perform. The only issue I have with bard as
noble is you tend to think of Nobles in very heavy armor, which doesn't
work so well for bards. They have the large ammount and right type of
skills a noble should be schooled in, they have the powers for
controlling or aweing the populace.

Other things to look at are the Paladin for the more "Divine Right"
type of Noble or King, and Martial from Minature's Handbook.

- Justisaur

 

[Joseph]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1124601523.328739.108430@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:


>
> In any case I think there is a good Noble class in core... The Bard.
> Just take oratory for your perform. The only issue I have with bard
> as noble is you tend to think of Nobles in very heavy armor, which
> doesn't work so well for bards.

I think of Nobles in light or medium armor with a full range of weapon
use. The upper class is defined by having been raised in a life of
privilege. Well-to-do social gatherings where they can use their
education, propriety, charisma, and use hierarchy to their advantage are
their true battlefields. Feats and other classes can model the more
warlike ones better. The Noble from Dragonlance is on the right track,
even though I think it needs a little more power.

> They have the large ammount and right type of
> skills a noble should be schooled in, they have the powers for
> controlling or aweing the populace.
>
> Other things to look at are the Paladin for the more "Divine Right"
> type of Noble or King, and Martial from Minature's Handbook.

This fits the truly elite militant aristocratic class in warlike
societies. The Noble, in general, prefers civilization (on occasion the
art of war) rather than the wild wilderness and dungeon adventuring of
classic D&D.

 

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Spinner wrote:
>I kinda disagree with Justi here too (sorry Justi -- I should've responded
>to your post I guess since I'm referring to your comments frequently). It
>may seem kind of funny (and it makes me laugh to think of the noble yelling
>at some pack of mind flayers or whatever to get them to understand him) but
>it's believable alongside all the other DnD stretches-of-the-imagination. I
>also think it would work well in game -- since communication's only one way,
>it'd make a challenging RP situation. Fun! Might want to change the
>name.... Universal Command? No, that's terrible. Something like that
>though.

I'd call it Noble Intent, and require that the Noble be able to gesture
in order for it to work(pantomime sometimes required). Make it not
full understanding, but it ensures that the gist of the conversation is
understood, modeling the Noble's skill at negotiation in foreign
cultures.

 

[Spinner]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

> Constructive comments are welcome.
>
> Fine Breeding (Ex): The noble gains a permanent +1 to any attribute of
> her choice. This is essentially the same as (and in addition to) the
> attribute bonus gained every 4th character level.
>
I love this one ... especially since stat raises make players salivate! And
unlike what Justi said about breeding going down the tubes via in-breeding
(although I know it was said in jest) -- the idea behind noble breeding is
that these guys rose to the top because they *were* so kickass to begin
with -- in other words, your noble PC may only have slightly supernormal
stats but your ancestors had stats through the roof!

BTW, has anyone here tried running 1000 random stat sets based on 3d6 to try
and model a typical population or something like that? You get some really
amazing stat sets at the top of the heap -- like 18, 16, 17, 13, 16, 16 --
that kind of thing! These people are destined to be nobles and they'll pass
their good stats on to their kids if they're lucky.

> Voice of Authority (Ex): The noble gains a bonus equal to her class
> level to any Diplomacy check, and a similar penalty to any attempt to
> pretend to be one of the common throng (eg by Disguise or Bluff).
>
Beware the super-pumped Diplomat!

> Self-assured (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a noble gains a Resistance
> bonus equal to half her class level (round down) on saving throws
> against any mind-affecting effect.
>
I like this -- even if it does *seem* to break the manipulable noble
archetype. You see, the noble is such a *target* (being so powerful and
influential) that the evil manipulating wizard succeeds *in spite of* this
resistance.

> Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a noble is immune to
> fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a
> +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
>
Don't like this -- as a supernatural ability, it's strictly paladin
territory. A +4 for himself and +2 for allies would work better IMO (and
could be Ex).

> Voice of Command (Sp): Beginning at 5th level, a Noble can cast the
> Command spell a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma
> bonus. The save DC is 10 + half her class level + her Charisma bonus.
>
Dig it.

> Natural Leader: At 7th level, a noble gains the Leadership feat. If
> she already has it, she adds her Class Level to her Leadership score.
>
No problem I think -- since most Leadershippers max out their cohort level
anyway. This'll mostly affect followers.

> Aura (Su): Beginning at 7th level, the noble's bearing is so
> unambiguous that she radates an Alignment Aura as though a cleric of
> half her class level.
>
Dig it.

> Speak Loudly and Clearly (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the Noble's
> authority is so undeniable that she can be understood by any creature
> of Int 3 or better. This applies only to speech, and does not enable
> the noble to understand the other creature. It does include her Voice
> of Command ability.
>
I kinda disagree with Justi here too (sorry Justi -- I should've responded
to your post I guess since I'm referring to your comments frequently). It
may seem kind of funny (and it makes me laugh to think of the noble yelling
at some pack of mind flayers or whatever to get them to understand him) but
it's believable alongside all the other DnD stretches-of-the-imagination. I
also think it would work well in game -- since communication's only one way,
it'd make a challenging RP situation. Fun! Might want to change the
name.... Universal Command? No, that's terrible. Something like that
though.

> Inspiring Leader (Su): Beginning at 11th level, the noble can Inspire
> Courage (+1 bonus) or Inspire Competence (+2 bonus) (as the Bardic
> Music ability) a total number of times per day equal to 3 + her
> Charisma bonus. This requires a brief speech (1 round ME action, no
> AoO). The effect lasts one round per class level.
>
Could include along with Voice of Command?

> Rebuke (Sp): Beginning at 13th level, a noble may Rebuke any living
> creature in the same way that an evil cleric of half her level (round
> down) rebukes undead. She can do this a number of times per day equal
> to 3 + her Charisma bonus. This is a mind-affecting ability.
>
Excellent. Yes, rebuke is powerful, but remember that it only works as if a
cleric half your level -- the utility is somewhat limited. Again, could
bundle this ability in with Voice of Command. I like the idea of a rebuke
that works on living creatures -- fits the flavour you're going for
beautifully.

> Ancestral Knowledge (Sp): Beginning at 15th level, a noble can draw on
> the knowledge of her ancestors. This is equivalent to the Legend Lore
> spell, and can be performed once per day. Casting time 10 minutes; no
> material component or focus is required.
>
> Dominate (Sp): Beginning at 17th level, a noble's Voice of Command
> acts as the Dominate Person (or Dominate Monster) spell on the target.
>
> Divine Right (Su): Beginning at 19th level, a noble's aura of
> pre-eminent authority is so great that she is immune to any
> alignment-based damage or effects (eg she is unaffected by spells such
> as Protection from Evil, Blasphemy and Holy Smite, and takes no damage
> from Smite Evil). She can use any relic or intelligent item without
> penalty, regardless of its alignment or divine allegiance. She is
> unaffected by Divine Aura from any deity. [Or something? I don't have
> the DDG, so have no idea about how gods work. This is Aragorn facing
> down Sauron via Palantir].
>
I only barely understood this one once I got to the example you gave. Yeah
that could work. Sort of like you're so noble you're "above" the petty
effects of holiness or unholiness.

Overall, nice job. I'm no balance expert, but this looks like a fun class
to play with lots of good noble flavour!

Spinner

 

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Spinner wrote:
> > Constructive comments are welcome.
> >
> > Fine Breeding (Ex): The noble gains a permanent +1 to any attribute of
> > her choice. This is essentially the same as (and in addition to) the
> > attribute bonus gained every 4th character level.
> >
> I love this one ... especially since stat raises make players salivate! And
> unlike what Justi said about breeding going down the tubes via in-breeding
> (although I know it was said in jest) -- the idea behind noble breeding is
> that these guys rose to the top because they *were* so kickass to begin
> with -- in other words, your noble PC may only have slightly supernormal
> stats but your ancestors had stats through the roof!
>
> BTW, has anyone here tried running 1000 random stat sets based on 3d6 to try
> and model a typical population or something like that? You get some really
> amazing stat sets at the top of the heap -- like 18, 16, 17, 13, 16, 16 --
> that kind of thing! These people are destined to be nobles and they'll pass
> their good stats on to their kids if they're lucky.

Hmm. This gives me an interesting idea. I've been trying to think of
some way to model ability increases. I had the divine prestige class I
posted here, but I didn't really like the way it turned out...

So you could do +1 LA, +2 LA, etc... Templates:

Fine Breeding:

Character gets 10 extra points to distribute in a point buy (or as if
they were using a point buy after stats are rolled). +1 LA.

Noble Breeding: +25 points, +2 LA

Royal Breeding: +40 points, +3 LA

Perfect Specimen: 18 in all stats before racial modifiers +4 LA



- Justisaur

 

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Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jim Davies wrote:
> >> Fine Breeding (Ex): The noble gains a permanent +1 to any attribute of
> > her choice. This is essentially the same as (and in addition to) the
> > attribute bonus gained every 4th character level.
>
> Interesting concept. In reality it's more like too much inbreeding,
> ought to get a -1 (or more) to something

....but then you note:

> Again, wizard controlling a noble from behind the scenes is a common
> fantasy element. Doesn't fit.

So, I think being of superior abilities because of a noble birth, too, is
a somewhat common fantasy element.

As you note, it hardly matches reality, but it still is a fantasy element.

 

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Behold! for "Spinner" <bprentic@uwo.ca> spake unto the multitude thus:

>> Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a noble is immune to
>> fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a
>> +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
>>
>Don't like this -- as a supernatural ability, it's strictly paladin
>territory. A +4 for himself and +2 for allies would work better IMO (and
>could be Ex).

You may be right, but it's a lesser aspect of the Aura and Divine
Right below, bit Su.

>> Speak Loudly and Clearly (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, the Noble's
>> authority is so undeniable that she can be understood by any creature
>> of Int 3 or better. This applies only to speech, and does not enable
>> the noble to understand the other creature. It does include her Voice
>> of Command ability.
>>
>I kinda disagree with Justi here too (sorry Justi -- I should've responded
>to your post I guess since I'm referring to your comments frequently). It
>may seem kind of funny (and it makes me laugh to think of the noble yelling
>at some pack of mind flayers or whatever to get them to understand him) but
>it's believable alongside all the other DnD stretches-of-the-imagination. I
>also think it would work well in game -- since communication's only one way,
>it'd make a challenging RP situation. Fun! Might want to change the
>name.... Universal Command? No, that's terrible. Something like that
>though.

See reply to Justisaur about the Englisman Abroad, though you're right
that it's probably quite fun.

>> Inspiring Leader (Su): Beginning at 11th level, the noble can Inspire
>> Courage (+1 bonus) or Inspire Competence (+2 bonus) (as the Bardic
>> Music ability) a total number of times per day equal to 3 + her
>> Charisma bonus. This requires a brief speech (1 round ME action, no
>> AoO). The effect lasts one round per class level.
>>
>Could include along with Voice of Command?

It would end up limiting the number of uses too much, so it wouldn't
be used a lot.

>> Divine Right (Su): Beginning at 19th level, a noble's aura of
>> pre-eminent authority is so great that she is immune to any
>> alignment-based damage or effects (eg she is unaffected by spells such
>> as Protection from Evil, Blasphemy and Holy Smite, and takes no damage
>> from Smite Evil). She can use any relic or intelligent item without
>> penalty, regardless of its alignment or divine allegiance. She is
>> unaffected by Divine Aura from any deity. [Or something? I don't have
>> the DDG, so have no idea about how gods work. This is Aragorn facing
>> down Sauron via Palantir].
>>
>I only barely understood this one once I got to the example you gave. Yeah
>that could work. Sort of like you're so noble you're "above" the petty
>effects of holiness or unholiness.

That's the idea. I ought to get Deities and Demigods (is there a 3.5
version yet?) to sort out how this ought to be done.

--
Jim or Sarah Davies, but probably Jim

D&D and Star Fleet Battles stuff on http://www.aaargh.org

 

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Justisaur wrote:
>> Interesting concept. In reality it's more like too much inbreeding,
>> ought to get a -1 (or more) to something

Jim Davies wrote:
> Not necessarily so. Recent Research Has Shown (see New Scientist 13
> Aug 2005 pp41-) that for a given lucky subset, you end up pooling the
> best genes.

Yeah, I've seen some similar comments about inbreeding. In the short
term, it tends to be very bad for a population because you're more
likely to reinforce bad genes. Eventually, however, you'll cull most of
the bad stuff (so long as it hinders reproduction), effectively
"cleaning" the genetic line. Indeed, this effect is one of the
foundations of husbandry.

On the other hand, if you regularly mix the "thoroughbred" line with
outsiders, you'll keep bringing in bad genes and creating new culls,
never seeing the benefits of inbreeding.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
>>> Interesting concept. In reality it's more like too much inbreeding,
>>> ought to get a -1 (or more) to something
>
> Jim Davies wrote:
>> Not necessarily so. Recent Research Has Shown (see New Scientist 13
>> Aug 2005 pp41-) that for a given lucky subset, you end up pooling the
>> best genes.
>
> Yeah, I've seen some similar comments about inbreeding. In the short
> term, it tends to be very bad for a population because you're more
> likely to reinforce bad genes. Eventually, however, you'll cull most of
> the bad stuff (so long as it hinders reproduction), effectively
> "cleaning" the genetic line. Indeed, this effect is one of the
> foundations of husbandry.
>
> On the other hand, if you regularly mix the "thoroughbred" line with
> outsiders, you'll keep bringing in bad genes and creating new culls,
> never seeing the benefits of inbreeding.

Inbreeding is *great* for improving the genestock... as long as the
undesired results *are* culled. It's probably the fastest way to
develop desirable traits, but it's really rough on the ones that show
bad traits. It can also weaken the strain as a whole if it becomes
overdeveloped -- you may hit your goal, but introduce other problems
that are acceptable as long as you can maintain the creatures, but will
get them killed off if that maintenance isn't available.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

[KAOS]

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On 20 Aug 2005 22:18:43 -0700, "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> dared
speak in front of ME:

>Jim Davies wrote:
>>> Fine Breeding (Ex): The noble gains a permanent +1 to any attribute of
>> her choice. This is essentially the same as (and in addition to) the
>> attribute bonus gained every 4th character level.
>
>Interesting concept. In reality it's more like too much inbreeding,
>ought to get a -1 (or more) to something

Except we're talking Fantasy, where concepts like 'noble blood' are
likely to have more truth behind them than they do in reality.

(Research regarding selective breeding notwithstanding.)

--
The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out
the conservative adopts them.
Samuel Clemens, "Notebook," 1935

 

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Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
>> Jim Davies wrote:
>
>>>Interesting concept. In reality it's more like too much inbreeding,
>>>ought to get a -1 (or more) to something
>>
>>Not necessarily so. Recent Research Has Shown (see New Scientist 13
>>Aug 2005 pp41-) that for a given lucky subset, you end up pooling the
>>best genes.
>
> Yeah, I've seen some similar comments about inbreeding. In the short
> term, it tends to be very bad for a population because you're more
> likely to reinforce bad genes. Eventually, however, you'll cull most of
> the bad stuff (so long as it hinders reproduction), effectively
> "cleaning" the genetic line. Indeed, this effect is one of the
> foundations of husbandry.

Ah yes; breeding in-and-in to force the bad genes into the open.

With husbandry, the bad stuff doesn't need to hinder reproduction,
it just needs to be detectable by the breeder. It's a shame the good
mutations one seeks are often on a series of dodgy chromosomes.

Most human lines with inbreeding end up with a lot of bad recessive
traits, because noone does the neccisary back cull when the gene first
shows.
It also hammers your group immunity; whatever gets one of you will
get all of you.

> On the other hand, if you regularly mix the "thoroughbred" line with
> outsiders, you'll keep bringing in bad genes and creating new culls,
> never seeing the benefits of inbreeding.

Hybrid Vigor (what you tend to get after joining two long seperate
lines) OTOH, produces wonderful results; the problem being that it's
only good because you've hidden all the remaining weak genes, and
strongly tends to go downhill from there.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

 

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> Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> Yeah, I've seen some similar comments about inbreeding. In the short
>> term, it tends to be very bad for a population because you're more
>> likely to reinforce bad genes. Eventually, however, you'll cull most of
>> the bad stuff (so long as it hinders reproduction), effectively
>> "cleaning" the genetic line. Indeed, this effect is one of the
>> foundations of husbandry.

tussock wrote:
> Ah yes; breeding in-and-in to force the bad genes into the open.
> With husbandry, the bad stuff doesn't need to hinder reproduction,
> it just needs to be detectable by the breeder.

Yeah, that's how it works if you're willing to cull defective offspring.
People generally consider that reprehensible, so it takes longer to work
out the bad genes.

> It also hammers your group immunity; whatever gets one of you will get
> all of you.

Right -- defense in diversity applies to animals, not just computers.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Repent Bradd W. Szonye!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Bradd W.
Szonye replied. Then he added:

> Yeah, that's how it works if you're willing to cull defective offspring.
> People generally consider that reprehensible, so it takes longer to work
> out the bad genes.
>

You don't have to kill them, just don't let them breed within the family.

--
Billy Yank

Quinn: "I'm saying it's us, or them."
Murphy: "Well I choose them."
Q: "That's NOT an option!"
M: "Then you shouldn't have framed it as one."
-Sealab 2021

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/

 

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On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:48:33 +1200, tussock <scrub@clear.net.nz>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Most human lines with inbreeding end up with a lot of bad recessive
> traits, because noone does the neccisary back cull when the gene first
> shows.
> It also hammers your group immunity; whatever gets one of you will
> get all of you.

It's not too bad with most species, Cheetahs and Humans being obvious
exceptions.

--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Billy Yank wrote:
> "Repent Bradd W. Szonye!" said the Ticktockman. "Get Stuffed!" Bradd W.
> Szonye replied. Then he added:
>
>>Yeah, that's how it works if you're willing to cull defective offspring.
>>People generally consider that reprehensible, so it takes longer to work
>>out the bad genes.
>
> You don't have to kill them, just don't let them breed within the family.

That only hides the bad genes. A lot of real breeders have to get
rid of them altogether, so they can produce studs that won't throw /any/
defects.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.