The Southbridge Battle: nforce 6 MCP vs. ICH7 vs. ICH8

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The wall may be in HD Tach rather than the nVidia hardware or software. I ran into a similar bottleneck using HD Tach at about 300 MB/s with a RAID 0 array of six Hitachi Ultrastar 15k SAS drives on an Adaptec 4805SAS PCIe 8x controller.
Click to expand...

This still appears to be valid if IOMeter is a valid benchmark for disk I/O. However, my theories about the reasons for the differences turn out not to be valid. It seems to be necessary to reboot before each IOMeter test in order to get consistent results, and changing the number of outstanding I/O requests didn't show more than a few megabytes difference in the test results, which still showed a gradual decline from around 535 MB/s at the start of the disk.

Mike
 
OK, im new with the whole raid thing... all i know is raid 0 is fast but risky(data loss) and that raid 1 is secure(data mirror).
So say im setting up a gaming pc, 2x250gb WD, HD in raid 0
what would be the best size for array?
 
UPDATE:

Just received word from Intel that ICH8R, ICH8DH, ICH8DO does NOT SUPPORT RAID WITH WINDOWS VISTA! And they will not comment if or when such support will be available!

". . .no support for RAID in Windows* Vista*. . ."


Tim
 
Wow! Glad I ordered the evga 680i last night instead (at least I'm assuming the nvidia chipset will do Vista). How can they not know when they'll support it? Surely they heard that Vista was going to hit the streets soon. One would think they would've downloaded a beta or something to try it out. (Being a bit sarcastic of course.) But really, why haven't any Vista Beta testers said anything in this forum? I'm sure there's plenty of people using Vista with that chipset. That update just doesn't sound logical.
 
Windows Vista Business has been out for more than a month in the business form, and to anyone who subscribes to MSDN or TECHNET, as has OFFICE 2007 also.

It seems not to be the hardware; Intel P/G965 Express Chipset and/or ICH8R/ICH8DH/ICH8DO I/O Controller hubs that is the limiting factor but the Intel Matrix Storage Technology application software (both parts, the critical part is the BOOT BIOS, and the desktop application) that is the restricting or limiting factor.

As for the four fixed drives limitation, again it seems to be Intel Matrix Storage Technology application software (both parts, the critical part is the BOOT BIOS, and the desktop application) that is the restricting or limiting factor.

Same for the 2TB limitation.

Also no support for Advanced Host Controller Interface (AHCI), a new programming interface for SATA host controllers used in Windows Vista.

I have asked Intel the following:

Then why are Seagate, Hitachi, and WDC now producing 1TB consumer drives? Hitachi's is at a $399.00 SRP price level! Seagate has an enterprise 750GB available, and soon 1TB. Should these storage manufactures have talked with Intel first? Or first obtained Intel's approval? I have researched over 50,000 pages of Intel documentation coving Intel P/G965 Express Chipset, ICH8R/ICH8DH/ICH8DO I/O Controller hubs, and much more finding no solid documentation for the four fixed drive limitation, and no supporting information for why the Intel Matrix Storage Technology is limiting one to 2TB that is only briefly covered in the software release documentation.

So far, no reply. I also have private emails out to several senior Intel executives who are just comming back from CES.

Tim
 
Total lies/troll alert. The last poste's messages contain totally false information. First, Intel already has non-beta Vista RAID drivers out. Second, the only thing I see in the release notes about drives bigger tha 1 TB is this:
On systems with a RAID volume greater than 1TB, a blue screen may occur if the system enters the S4 power state while a rebuild or parity initialization of a RAID 5 volume is in progress.

Q2: Will Intel provide RAID drivers in the final version of the Microsoft Windows Vista operating system?
A: Yes. Intel will provide an Intel® Matrix Storage Manager RAID driver as part of the final Microsoft Windows Vista release. This RAID driver will support Intel® chipsets with the following I/O controller hubs when RAID is enabled:

* Intel® 82801HR/HH/HO I/O controller hub (ICH8R)
* Intel® 631xESB/632xESB I/O controller hub
* Intel® 82801GHM I/O controller hub (ICH7MDH)
* Intel® 82801GR I/O controller hub (ICH7R)
* Intel® 82801GH I/O controller hub (ICH7DH)
* Intel® 82801FR I/O controller hub (ICH6R)

Intel VISTA Support FAQ
 
All very true. . .

You are most likely a true TROLL or a INTEL FANBOY!

I have almost 30 years in the industry, many certifications, and an extensive contact list.

The latest production RAID BIOS has been "pulled", that did offer some support.

However one nice thing about Vista, MS has its own drivers for almost everything, and in this case I beleive they will work, both not in the prefered AHCI mode.


Tim


Second Message From Intel:
----------------------------------------
Thank you for contacting Intel(R) Technical Support.

In regards the situation you have and the inquiries that arose with the different limitations bear in mind the following information:

1. Unfortunately the different system limitations can be caused by SATA controller restrictions or by engineering decisions to improve system performance since this boards are designed to the desktop market and not intended to have a massive storage unit.

2. Regarding the information as you can see even if that is not specified in the box we update our information every time is required for public information in our website.

3. For further assistance on those terms please let me now.

4. The reason was the RAID version 6.2 was removed from the BIOS is handled at engineering department and it is recommended to change it only if you are having problems, aside from that there is not much we can say about it since that will be releasing confidential information.

5. By the moment there is no support for RAID in Windows* Vista* therefore there will not be any reversal in using the new version in Windows* Vista* since it is not supported.

6. About your final question for the serial port information that can be found in the page 54, table 22 in the following link:

ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherbd/wh/D5600801US.pdf


“Important note: Should you need further assistance from us regarding your inquiry, we would highly appreciate if you could simply reply to this email of ours, instead of sending a brand new email, unless it is a different issue/inquiry. Thus, we will be avoiding duplicate incoming emails, and we will not lose track of the email thread.”

Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you need further assistance.

Sincerely,

Eric V.
Intel(R) Technical Support

Intel(R) Desktop Board Support Web Site
http://support.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/

----------------------------------------



First Message From Intel:
----------------------------------------

Thank you for calling Intel Technical Support.

This is in reference to case number 7176817 with Intel (R) Desktop Board DG965WH and Intel (R) Matrix Storage Manager.

Here is the response to your concerns about the release notes that were not listed in the following release notes for the Intel (R) Matrix Storage Manager.

As to the Reference 2015920 "Volume size is limited to 2TB" in all OSs in the Intel (R) Matrix Storage Manager Production Version 6.1.0.1002 that were not mentioned in the later release of Intel (R) Matrix Storage Manager Production Version 6.2.0.2002, signifies that the issue was not resolved. This means the limitation is still there. At this time there's no expected time of resolution.

This limitation also pertains to the total RAID Array size as well.

The Intel (R) Desktop Board DG965WH is limited to 4 hard drives. You may be able to add another controller card to support more than 4 hard drives, however, Intel cannot support this configuration.

Below are links to the last two release notes for the Intel (R) Matrix Storage Manager.

http://downloadmirror.intel.com/df-support/11309/ENG/release%20notes.html
http://downloadmirror.intel.com/df-support/12093/ENG/releasenotes.html

If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact us.


Thank you,

Pat S.
Intel Technical Support
Motherboards and Processors


* Other names and brands may claimed as the property of others.

----------------------------------------
 
Ok you're half-correct Great One. Boards with only the ICH8 southbridge do not apparently support RAID, as you can see in the list I posted above.

Sucks to be you. But think about it - boards like the DG965H with integrated graphics are sold only to OEMS like HP for mass consumption - there is little need for RAID/AHCI.

Anyone with a P965 chipset with the ICH8R southbridge is fine. Again, RAID is supported on the ICH8R, but apparently not the ICH8.
 
Incorrect, the Intel BOXDG965WHMKR motherboard that I own is boxed retail product using the Intel G965 Express Chipset as the “northbridge”, and the ICH8R Intel I/O Controller Hub as the “southbridge”. Thus, the two “defects” so noted would occur on any motherboard incorporating either an ICH8R/ICH8DH/ICH8DO or ICH7R/ICH7DH Intel I/O Controller Hub in conjunction with usage of the Intel Matrix Storage Technology for a RAID configuration.

http://support.intel.com/products/motherboard/DG965WH/index.htm

And:

http://support.intel.com/design/motherbd/wh/wh_available.htm

I surmise that defect is not actually a defect in the hardware but a design defect in the firmware, and the related desktop application for controlling the firmware functionality; i.e. Intel Matrix Storage Technology.

Several years ago, with the introduction of the ICH7 Intel I/O Controller Hub family, Intel made several fundamental design changes to accommodate the ever-expanding Intel Matrix Storage Technology. However, those changes now seem to be the limiting factor now.

Please note the below from some release documentation:

Intel Matrix Storage Manager Production Version 6.2.0.2002 (October 13, 2006):

Supported Operating Systems

Microsoft* Windows* Vista*
Microsoft* Windows* Vista* x64 Edition
Microsoft* Windows* XP Home Edition
Microsoft* Windows* XP Professional
Microsoft* Windows* XP x64 Edition
Microsoft* Windows* 2000 Advanced Server**
Microsoft* Windows* Server 2003**
Microsoft* Windows* 2003 x64 Edition
Microsoft* Windows* Media Center Edition

New features in Baseline 6.2

Microsoft* Windows* Vista* support
This release adds support for the Microsoft Windows Vista operating system

However, any Intel motherboard that supported this version RAID BIOS (v6.2.0.2002) in SYSTEM BIOS update (RAID BIOS is normally packaged with the SYSTEM BIOS) will have found that Intel has reverted to back (in a December SYSTEM BIOS update for the BOXDG965WHMKR) to RAID BIOS (v6.1.0.1002) which does not support Microsoft Windows Vista. RAID BIOS v6.1.0.1002 was first release in July 2006, so is quite “dated”, especially as to supporting new features or functionality.

RAID BIOS (v6.2.0.2002) is/was "defective".

I am awaiting Intel’s next answer. . .


Tim
 
One other further note, I am been unable to find any supporting documentation for the limitation and restriction to four drives. I believe that this also occurred at the time of the introduction of the ICH7 Intel I/O Controller Hub family, and is a “defect” that has been with us for some time now. I have asked Intel for this documentation.

Furthermore, I believe that six drives will work fine as long as no more than four drives are in any RAID configuration, and two as JBOD. Again, the limitation seems to stem from a poorly designed Intel Matrix Storage Technology.


Tim
 
Well, that's retarded if it's true - I'll have to check my RAID BIOS next boot. Maybe that's why Asus updates for the P5B Bios have been so long in coming.

It doesn't make sense to me the release notes would say there is support, but not make a note that you will need a BIOS update to get it to work.

Anyone out there running Vista with an Asus P5b Deluxe on RAID, anyone?
 
sluzbenik, that is per above and why Intel said the below:

4. The reason was the RAID version 6.2 was removed from the BIOS is handled at engineering department and it is recommended to change it only if you are having problems, aside from that there is not much we can say about it since that will be releasing confidential information.

And they will not even say what the defect is (top secret of course)!

And I though only Microsoft was "retarted"!

Tim
 
Hi Tim. Do you know if nforce 6 has that kind of "issues" or other that can make RAID use a hell for it's users? I am seriously planning buying a board with 680i chipset, but seen the things at the moment (low performance, bugs, ect.) I don't really know if its better to wait or just forget the RAID usage until a solution is given.

Thanks.
 
A few questions:

1) With Intel's Matrix RAID, could I use 4 hard drives of different sizes (320GBx2 + 160GBx2) to create two arrays. A RAID0 accross all 4 drives (160GBx4), and a RAID0 accross the left over 160GBx2? Resulting in a RAID0 of 640GB and a RAID0 of 320GB?

2) My biggest concerns are an upgrade path for SLI, hard disk performance, and value. Because of the price concern, a 3rd party RAID controller isn't a valid option. Currently, the only option for SLI is with the nVidia chipset, but, it's RAID conroller is obviouly outclassed. So...is there any indication SLI will eventually be supported through the P965 or other future Intel platforms?

3) I thought RAID5 was supposed to be very close in performance to RAID0, is this only the case with decent 3rd party contollers? Or is this a wrong assumption altogether?

Thanks!
 
A few questions:

Currently, the only option for SLI is with the nVidia chipset, but, it's RAID conroller is obviouly outclassed.
Click to expand...

Have you found any testing using something other than HD Tach, which has a history of problems measuring performance on RAID arrays, comparing ICH7 or ICH8 RAID performance with 680i RAID performance?

HD Tach shows an average read speed of about 300 MB/s for my Adaptec 4805SAS RAID array, with the same kind of graph as the 680i in the Tom's Hardware article. IOMeter using parameters supplied by Adaptec to run a single worker gave an average read speed of 470 MB/s. Both tests were run with the operating system on another drive and the RAID array empty, with no partitions.

HD Tach is not an industry standard benchmark; IOMeter is, and is used by Seagate, LSI Logic, Maxtor, Adaptec, and other companies.

Mike
 
Hello yakumoklesk, nforce 6 is rather “new” attempt by nVidia, following a rather rocky nforce 5 line. Moreover, just how many nforce 6 reviews have you seen out there, not many? In addition, I have not seen too many manufacturers actually produce and have readily available any nforce 6 motherboards yet.

The question is how stable and mature are nVidia’s nforce 6 drivers? As we have just noticed with the Intel ICH and Vista, the hardware may be capable, but it is all up to the firmware and drivers. Plus, the fact that with Intel, the RAID BIOS is incorporated with the SYSTEM BIOS updates, so updating the SYSTEM BIOS to correct an issue or add new features, could change the RAID BIOS version.

The most inexpensive solution would be to wait a few weeks until Vista is out retail, and see if there is any storm that develops (and so noted on sites such as this) with the nVidia’s nforce 6 products being used with Vista.

The other solution would be to go with an external controller, such as the Promise Technology, Inc. SuperTrak EX8350 that is a 8-Port Serial ATA 3Gb/s Native PCIe RAID 6 Controller, but it is not an inexpensive solution, but would offer far surpassing data security, and array performance compared to any onboard RAID controller.


Tim
 
Hi Mike. That 470 rate you're talking about is using IOMeter in a 680i chipset motherboard?
Click to expand...

Yes, but with six SAS 15k drives running off an Adaptec 4805SAS PCIe 8x RAID controller, so the chipset isn't a big factor in disk performance.

Unfortunately, I don't have multiple SATA drives to try in RAID 0 using the southbridge on a 975x motherboard and 680i motherboard to see what IOMeter shows using Adaptec's test parameters.

I lost the link, but I found one critique of an earlier version of HD Tach which explained why it didn't measure some RAID arrays accurately. The benchmark processes I/O at different points from the beginning to the end of the physical drive or array, but it doesn't read everything from the beginning to the end. That means that the determination of what to read and what to skip may hit the drives in the array in an order unrelated to normal linear reads, especially if the read size is near or less than the stripe size.

I don't know if HD Tach has been updated to fix this, but I've gotten the impression that any time a RAID array generates the kind graph the 680i tests generated, with the same speed at both ends of the array, the HD Tach results may represent limitations in its testing methodology rather than an accurate benchmark of the array's performance.

I'm still waiting to hear back from HD Tach, but there don't seem to have been much in the way of changes to the Simpli Software web site for the past year or two, so I'm not sure how active it is currently.

Mike
 
1) With Intel's Matrix RAID, could I use 4 hard drives of different sizes (320GBx2 + 160GBx2) to create two arrays. A RAID0 accross all 4 drives (160GBx4), and a RAID0 accross the left over 160GBx2? Resulting in a RAID0 of 640GB and a RAID0 of 320GB?
Click to expand...

I originally wanted to use two WDC WD1500ADFD in a RAID1 array, and four Seagate ST3750640NS in a RAID5 array. Now it is two Seagate ST3146855SS (SAS) (RAID1) (via a LSISAS3041E-R) and six Seagate ST3750640NS in a RAID5 array. Since Intel now states for their ICH's not over 2TB and not more than four drives, I will probably use an Adaptec 4805 that can handle both SAS/SATA, and go with two Seagate ST3146855SS (SAS) (RAID1) and six Seagate ST3750640NS in a RAID5 array.

2) My biggest concerns are an upgrade path for SLI, hard disk performance, and value. Because of the price concern, a 3rd party RAID controller isn't a valid option. Currently, the only option for SLI is with the nVidia chipset, but, it's RAID conroller is obviouly outclassed. So...is there any indication SLI will eventually be supported through the P965 or other future Intel platforms?
Click to expand...

There is a scheduled follow-on to the i965 family, replacing the i975, due second half of 2007. I am fearful it may (read, probably) use the ICH8 southbridge, and unless Intel gets it act together with the Intel Matrix Storage Technology firmware and driver software, it will be a “mess”. In addition, Intel should really “decouple” the mandatory RAID BIOS update when updating the SYSTEM BIOS.

3) I thought RAID5 was supposed to be very close in performance to RAID0, is this only the case with decent 3rd party contollers? Or is this a wrong assumption altogether?
Click to expand...

RAID5 can approach RAID0 in many ways, but only with a very expensive external RAID controller with generous amounts of cache, and an enterprise drive,, such as 15,000 RPM SAS drives.

Regarding HD Tach or IOMeter, I do not “trust” either of them, they are all “synthetic benchmarks”, and can be fooled by slick well-designed firmware (as did Asus a few years ago, and WDC has been suspected of doing) and do not necessary equate to “real world” performance and throughput.


Tim
 
1) With Intel's Matrix RAID, could I use 4 hard drives of different sizes (320GBx2 + 160GBx2) to create two arrays. A RAID0 accross all 4 drives (160GBx4), and a RAID0 accross the left over 160GBx2? Resulting in a RAID0 of 640GB and a RAID0 of 320GB?
Click to expand...

I originally wanted to use two WDC WD1500ADFD in a RAID1 array, and four Seagate ST3750640NS in a RAID5 array. Now it is two Seagate ST3146855SS (SAS) (RAID1) (via a LSISAS3041E-R) and six Seagate ST3750640NS in a RAID5 array. Since Intel now states for their ICH's not over 2TB and not more than four drives, I will probably use an Adaptec 4805 that can handle both SAS/SATA, and go with two Seagate ST3146855SS (SAS) (RAID1) and six Seagate ST3750640NS in a RAID5 array.

This did not answer my question, I was asking about using four drives with two arrays, one array effecting all four drives, the second array only effecting two (but those two already being used in the first array). It's always been the case with RAID0 that if the drives were adifferent size from each other, then the array would utilise space from each drive equivalent to the total capacity of the smallest drive in the array? But, it seems, this may be possible with Intel's Matrix RAID.

2) My biggest concerns are an upgrade path for SLI, hard disk performance, and value. Because of the price concern, a 3rd party RAID controller isn't a valid option. Currently, the only option for SLI is with the nVidia chipset, but, it's RAID conroller is obviouly outclassed. So...is there any indication SLI will eventually be supported through the P965 or other future Intel platforms?
Click to expand...

There is a scheduled follow-on to the i965 family, replacing the i975, due second half of 2007. I am fearful it may (read, probably) use the ICH8 southbridge, and unless Intel gets it act together with the Intel Matrix Storage Technology firmware and driver software, it will be a “mess”. In addition, Intel should really “decouple” the mandatory RAID BIOS update when updating the SYSTEM BIOS.

I am away of the new chipset due for release, but does anyone know if it will have support for SLI???

3) I thought RAID5 was supposed to be very close in performance to RAID0, is this only the case with decent 3rd party contollers? Or is this a wrong assumption altogether?
Click to expand...

RAID5 can approach RAID0 in many ways, but only with a very expensive external RAID controller with generous amounts of cache, and an enterprise drive,, such as 15,000 RPM SAS drives.

Regarding HD Tach or IOMeter, I do not “trust” either of them, they are all “synthetic benchmarks”, and can be fooled by slick well-designed firmware (as did Asus a few years ago, and WDC has been suspected of doing) and do not necessary equate to “real world” performance and throughput.


Tim

Thanks, that's what I thought 🙁
 
1) With Intel's Matrix RAID, could I use 4 hard drives of different sizes (320GBx2 + 160GBx2) to create two arrays. A RAID0 accross all 4 drives (160GBx4), and a RAID0 accross the left over 160GBx2? Resulting in a RAID0 of 640GB and a RAID0 of 320GB?

With Intel's solution two arrays are permitted, providing that no more than four dives total are used, and the total array size does not exceed 2TB. So yes, you could have a volume of 640GB RAID0, and another volume of 320GB RAID0. However, I wonder what type of "load" this would place on the onboard controller . . .

Intel may warm up to SLI, now that AMD owns ATI.


Tim
 
Hi all,
Just registered to do this post! :)
I'm from Italy and i'm not so confident with English, but i read some posts where a lot of people were talking about Intel Matrix Technology that's very interesting for me too...
I've a P965 motherboard and 4 Seagate 320Gb 7200.10 hard drives now configured in Raid5, but i found nice to break this Raid to make a new Raid5 Array of 720Gb (240x4 -240) plus a Raid0 Array of 320Gb (remaining 80x4).
Now a big question: can i, in future, erase the 320Gb Raid 0 Array and merge the free space in the remaining Raid5 Array?
Thanks for every answers
 
Ok folks, here is an update, that reflect what confused state Intel is operating in!

See the following URL:

http://downloadfinder.intel.com/scripts-df-external/Product_Filter.aspx?ProductID=2101

Select any Microsoft Windows Vista version you like, 32-bit or 64-bit, there is the Intel Matrix Storage Manager [IATA621.EXE] (5253KB) v6.2.1.1002 to support it!

However, as one would remember past warnings from Intel that the RAID BIOS and IATA software should (read, MUST) be of the same revision. Then where is RAID BIOS v6.2.1.1002? In fact, on the following Intel DP965LT, DG965SS, DG965RY, DG965PZ, DG965OT, DG965MS, DG965MQ, DQ963FX, DQ963GS based product, with the latest SYSTEM BIOS 1612 (December 27, 2006) the RAID BIOS was reverted from v6.2.0.2002 to v6.1.0.1002! Is this not going in the wrong direction?

Another sad fact from Intel, in almost nine months they (Intel) have not managed to update the Intel Matrix Storage Manager - User's Manual (Manual57_WEB.pdf 06/14/2006)!

And they (Intel) just released (to public) a SYSTEM BIOS update:

BIOS Update Release Notes
PRODUCTS: DP965LT, DG965SS, DG965RY, DG965PZ, DG965OT,
DG965MS, DG965MQ, DQ963FX, DQ963GS (Standard BIOS)

BIOS Version 1614
About This Release:
January 05, 2007
MQ96510J.86A.1614.2007.0105.1345
VBIOS info: Build Number: 1393 PC 14.21 11/10/2006 17:34:15.
SATA RAID info: Intel(R) RAID for SATA - v6.1.0.1002
SATA AHCI info: Version UPSD src 09-13-2006
PXE Nahum info: Intel(R) Boot Agent GE v1.2.42
ME firmware build: 2.0.5.1124 production signed.

New Fixes/Features:
Fixed an issue of missing SLP2.0 signature.

Still the same old RAID BIOS v6.1.0.1002!


Tim
 
I've a P965 motherboard and 4 Seagate 320Gb 7200.10 hard drives now configured in Raid5, but i found nice to break this Raid to make a new Raid5 Array of 720Gb (240x4 -240) plus a Raid0 Array of 320Gb (remaining 80x4).

Now a big question: can i, in future, erase the 320Gb Raid 0 Array and merge the free space in the remaining Raid5 Array?
Thanks for every answers
Click to expand...


From Intel:

Intel® Matrix Storage Manager
Can I add an additional hard drive to a RAID array?

Adding an additional hard drive to a RAID array in order to increase the capacity is known as array expansion. One example of array expansion would be adding a fourth hard drive to a three-drive RAID 5 volume.

The Intel® Matrix Storage Manager does not support array expansion.

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-022321.htm

And you may wish to look at this URL also:

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-020785.htm


Tim
 
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