Question Timings in overclocked DDR4 concerning

[ScarH3ad]

A few days ago I upgraded to 9th gen and decided to overclock. Everything went fine with CPU but Ram has me concerned. I have 8gb DDR4 2133Mhz with timings-15. Initially I bumped it up to 3200Mhz and V1.3. System crashed on startup. I brought it down to 2400Mhz and it loaded fine with Cas sitting at 17. After that I brought it up to 2800Mhz, loaded fine, Cas is at 20. I assume I am doing something wrong(or not doing something). XMP is nowhere to be found in the Bios.

My build:
Gigabyte Z390 UD with BIOS version F3,
9700k currenty OC to 5.0Ghz & V1.275.

Bios version F6 is out for my Mb already but I often have black outs in the neighborhood and have never updated bios before so I'm avoiding Bios update.
Novice at overclocking

Edit: Is it safe to manually set it to factory timings when overclocked if the system puts it at 20 on auto?

Any help is appreciated

CPU-Z Screenshot

https://imgur.com/iE63RBN

 

[kanewolf]

You are hurting your performance by having only single channel memory. Much worse of a hit than any slow clocking on memory.
The SPD tab in CPU-z will tell you what factory defined timings your RAM has.

 

[ScarH3ad]

You are hurting your performance by having only single channel memory. Much worse of a hit than any slow clocking on memory.
The SPD tab in CPU-z will tell you what factory defined timings your RAM has.

I DO plan on upgrading to 2 memory sticks in near future. However, for right now I wanted to improve what I have. Concerning factory defined timings, as I mentioned it's 15. The whole problem is that it jumps to 20 when I overclock. That is my concern. Is it safe to manually set it to factory timings when overclocked if the system puts it at 20 on auto?

 

[CountMike]

It's "Safe" as it will not blow up or something like that, only thing that may happen is to not BOOT or be unstable so you can try whatever you want, just make sure you can reset CMOS easily.

 

[compprob237]

XMP is nowhere to be found in the Bios.

My build:
Gigabyte Z390 UD with BIOS version F3,
9700k currenty OC to 5.0Ghz & V1.275.

Edit: Is it safe to manually set it to factory timings when overclocked if the system puts it at 20 on auto?

XMP location: M.I.T. page -> Advanced Frequency Settings -> Scroll down a bit to find: "Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.)" -- This is found in the manual on page 25/48.
It can also be found under: M.I.T. page -> Advanced Memory Settings -> "Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.)" -- Manual page 26/48
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-UD-rev-10#support-manual

As for your Edit, it is safe to set it to factory timings so long as you also set it to the voltage it needs (maybe more since you're overclocked) but the X.M.P. for the kit contains much more data than just the simple CL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR. These profiles have the frequency it should run at, the voltage the kit needs for that profile, and sometimes secondary timings. You can set it by hand but why bother when it is already programmed in the sticks? Well, this is assuming you have a set of RAM that has the EEPROM programmed with any X.M. Profiles.

 

[ScarH3ad]

XMP location: M.I.T. page -> Advanced Frequency Settings -> Scroll down a bit to find: "Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.)" -- This is found in the manual on page 25/48.
It can also be found under: M.I.T. page -> Advanced Memory Settings -> "Extreme Memory Profile (X.M.P.)" -- Manual page 26/48
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-UD-rev-10#support-manual

As for your Edit, it is safe to set it to factory timings so long as you also set it to the voltage it needs (maybe more since you're overclocked) but the X.M.P. for the kit contains much more data than just the simple CL-tRCD-tRP-tRAS-CR. These profiles have the frequency it should run at, the voltage the kit needs for that profile, and sometimes secondary timings. You can set it by hand but why bother when it is already programmed in the sticks? Well, this is assuming you have a set of RAM that has the EEPROM programmed with any X.M. Profiles.

Thanks for the detailed answer. However, I've gone through everything, including the locations you are pointing to. Used google and the Manual, I realize it should be there but it's not. At this point I assume my memory doesn't have EEPROM and thus XMP is not there to be selected.

 

[ScarH3ad]

In your opinion can I rely upon the chart below? If I keep auto selected timings for the frequency I choose according to this chart I'm better off with factory set 2133 at 15 rather than 2400 at 17 or 2800 at 20

 

[compprob237]

Thanks for the detailed answer. However, I've gone through everything, including the locations you are pointing to. Used google and the Manual, I realize it should be there but it's not. At this point I assume my memory doesn't have EEPROM and thus XMP is not there to be selected.

Give Thaiphoon Burner (Freeware) a try to see if it can read if there is any profiles. If there isn't then can you post what make and model of RAM you have?

In your opinion can I rely upon the chart below? If I keep auto selected timings for the frequency I choose according to this chart I'm better off with factory set 2133 at 15 rather than 2400 at 17 or 2800 at 20

That chart is referring to latency. While it is one part of the equation it isn't necessarily a be-all-end-all. I was wrong and that chart is actually showing the ratio of speed to latency. Although, it is usually better still if the RAM is faster but has slightly worse latency. It depends on the platform though. Ryzen needs fast over low latency vs Intel not making a huge difference. Personally, I'd for for 2400C17 but at what voltages are you running the RAM? 1.35v is the high specification for DDR4 and usually gives you some more breathing room for overclocking. I took my 2400C15 kit to 2666C13 by bumping the voltage up. I can have it run higher frequency (2800C18) but the performance seemed worse.

 

[ScarH3ad]

Give Thaiphoon Burner (Freeware) a try to see if it can read if there is any profiles. If there isn't then can you post what make and model of RAM you have?

Thaiphoon Burner didn't see any XMP profiles on it.

Spoiler: Ram Report

-------------------------------------------------------------
MEMORY MODULE
-------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer : GeIL
Series : Not determined
Part Number : CL15-15-15 D4-2133
Serial Number : 00000000h
JEDEC DIMM Label : 8GB 2Rx8 PC4-2133P-UB0-10
Architecture : DDR4 SDRAM UDIMM
Speed Grade : DDR4-2133P
Capacity : 8 GB (16 components)
Organization : 1024M x64 (2 ranks)
Register Manufacturer : N/A
Register Model : N/A
Manufacturing Date : Jun 29 - Jul 3 / Week 27, 2015
Manufacturing Location : Taipei, Taiwan
Revision / Raw Card : 0000h / B0 (8 layers)
-------------------------------------------------------------
DRAM COMPONENTS
-------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer : Micron Technology
Part Number : D9RGQ (MT40A512M8HX-093E:A)
Package : Standard Monolithic 78-ball FBGA
Die Density / Count : 4 Gb A-die (30 nm) / 1 die
Composition : 512Mb x8 (32Mb x8 x 16 banks)
Clock Frequency : 1067 MHz (0.938 ns)
Minimum Timing Delays : 15-15-15-36-51
Read Latencies Supported : 16T, 15T, 14T
Supply Voltage : 1.20 V
XMP Certified : Not programmed
XMP Extreme : Not programmed
SPD Revision : 1.0 / January 2014
XMP Revision : Undefined

at what voltages are you running the RAM?

Right now I am back at factory settings V1.2, 2133Mhz @15T. When I was trying to overclock I had it set to V1.3, at this voltage I got the results stated previously.

Also I had a 4GB Ram stick stashed with identical speed and timings and decided to give it a try alongside my 8GB stick to make the memory dual channel. It seems to be working fine. Tested it in few demanding games and benchmarks. (This combo didn't work well in my old MoBo)

 

[compprob237]

Thaiphoon Burner didn't see any XMP profiles on it.

Spoiler: Ram Report

-------------------------------------------------------------
MEMORY MODULE
-------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer : GeIL
Series : Not determined
Part Number : CL15-15-15 D4-2133
Serial Number : 00000000h
JEDEC DIMM Label : 8GB 2Rx8 PC4-2133P-UB0-10
Architecture : DDR4 SDRAM UDIMM
Speed Grade : DDR4-2133P
Capacity : 8 GB (16 components)
Organization : 1024M x64 (2 ranks)
Register Manufacturer : N/A
Register Model : N/A
Manufacturing Date : Jun 29 - Jul 3 / Week 27, 2015
Manufacturing Location : Taipei, Taiwan
Revision / Raw Card : 0000h / B0 (8 layers)
-------------------------------------------------------------
DRAM COMPONENTS
-------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer : Micron Technology
Part Number : D9RGQ (MT40A512M8HX-093E:A)
Package : Standard Monolithic 78-ball FBGA
Die Density / Count : 4 Gb A-die (30 nm) / 1 die
Composition : 512Mb x8 (32Mb x8 x 16 banks)
Clock Frequency : 1067 MHz (0.938 ns)
Minimum Timing Delays : 15-15-15-36-51
Read Latencies Supported : 16T, 15T, 14T
Supply Voltage : 1.20 V
XMP Certified : Not programmed
XMP Extreme : Not programmed
SPD Revision : 1.0 / January 2014
XMP Revision : Undefined

Right now I am back at factory settings V1.2, 2133Mhz @15T. When I was trying to overclock I had it set to V1.3, at this voltage I got the results stated previously.

Also I had a 4GB Ram stick stashed with identical speed and timings and decided to give it a try alongside my 8GB stick to make the memory dual channel. It seems to be working fine. Tested it in few demanding games and benchmarks. (This combo didn't work well in my old MoBo)

GeIL-branded Micron A-Die that is dual rank. Those don't overclock too well from what I've read (Ryzens).

Wow, the EEPROM doesn't even have any XMP stored! That would explain why XMP was missing from BIOS. Looking over the datasheet for the Micron part number and its SPD profile (which BIOS auto-sets) appears to be "DDR4-2133 15-15-15" with no other timings. Your readout gives us tRAS (36, try the common 35 or as low as 2xCL) and... I'm not certain what the 51 represents. Usually that's CR/Command Rate and is expressed like: 1T/1N or 2T/2N.

Voltage specifications:
1.2v +/- 0.060v (for voltage fluctuations) with a max specification of 1.5v. After subtracting the voltage fluctuation tolerance from 1.5v you end with 1.44v max that the chips can handle safely within spec with fluctuation in mind. These terms are only useful if you're digging deep into Tertiary timings: "VDD and VDDQ must be within 300mV of each other at all times, and VREF must not be greater than 0.6 × VDDQ. When VDD and VDDQ are <500mV, VREF can be 300mV." VDDQ = VDIMM = RAM voltage
https://www.micron.com/~/media/documents/products/data-sheet/dram/ddr4/4gb_ddr4_sdram.pdf
Page 265/383

So, if you really want to push that RAM hard you can go all the way up to 1.44v RAM voltage. Intel's specifications state that the max is 1.5v but I'd be uncomfortable with anything above 1.45v unless you were doing extreme overclocking or didn't care if you toasted the CPU/IMC and/or RAM.

If you wanted to you could see what you can get away with using 1.35-1.375v (roughly) RAM voltage. I'm actually comfortable with suggesting up to 1.4v without much issue and I'm hesitant to suggest up to 1.44v according to Micron's specifications.

Adding in that 4GB stick is allowing your motherboard to use Flex Mode which has the RAM run in Dual+Single channel mode. So long as the sticks behave with the CPU's IMC then that should be fine. I always tell people that Capacity > Speed for RAM.