Tom’s Soapbox: An Argument for Ending the PC Vs. Console Debate

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Awesome. I had to look it up. It's in a new update released yesterday. I'm using my PS4 with my 1440p gaming rig monitor. It looks arguably better than a native 27" 1080p monitor. When I first tested it I expected it to look worse due to pixel stretching on up-scaling out of native game code display. Apparently PS4 games that can also run at 4K (like my Project Cars 2) fare a lot better here than those that were coded for 1080p only. I've also read this up-scaling quality can be dependent on your monitor's quality (I have a high end Dell). In any event, I'd love to see Sony support 2K and Freesync monitors for the PS4 but knowing them they won't even try.

Now what I'd like to know is what the FPS performance hit would be. The games are native 1080p 60FPS for the most part so I wonder how that works. Anyway Sony, listen up! You need this and there are a lot out there like me. Otherwise my next generation console might just be an Xbox.



Nothing new. For several years now since the 4th generation consoles came out (PS4/XB1) the developers have trended towards console development first then backporting to PC. Remember the Batman Arkham Knight disaster? That was one of the first ones to do it, and they of course failed miserably on the PC port. So bad that Warner Bros gave refunds to those who bought it on Steam. It didn't help me because it was one of two games I got free with an EVGA GTX 970 purchase. I believe by the time they got it fully patched and working, it was a year after release. I refuse to buy a WB game ever because of that.



Well that's the general assumption with the meaning "exclusive" in a console title. Forza used to be XB only but Microsoft finally wised up and offered it for PC gamers starting with FM6. That's rare. I'm still tempted to get FM7 for the PC but I've got so many racing games/sims on both platforms I'm nearly overwhelmed.
 

templarklimek

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IMHO the gpu insane pricing is going to hurt pc gaming. I run 3 980ti's and 64 GB of ram bought 3 years ago. Now try getting 64 GB of ram and even 2 1080 ti's. It's insane. I don't blame GPU ,alers but they better get a solution going. Adding insult to injury the next gen of gpu's are due making this even worse.
 

badaxe2

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I just built a new rig (ASUS Z270 Mk1 + i7 7700 + EVGA Geforce GTX 1070 + G. Skill Ripjaws DDR4 + Win 10 Prof.) before the holidays last year and can happily max out my two most wanted multiplats of The Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance, DOOM for a change of pace, and several older titles my old rig struggled with like The Evil Within and Wolfenstein: TNO. But at the same time, I'm equally thrilled with some PS4 games like Bloodborne, Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted: Lost Legacy and now God of War.

I love the versatility and options of a PC, but also love to see how far a talented 1st party studio (with a generous budget) can push a console when they can zero in on the hardware. The contrast is too good to pass up, and I'm constantly being surprised by each.
 

GforceD

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Nowadays, consoles are PC's, just locked to an OS platform.
PS4 is just a Sony branded PC that can only play Sony games.
 

Zaporro

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Buying console means supporting cancerous practices that ruin gaming industry for every gamer:

- platform specific exclusives - its pathetic how console fans judge consoles by "which one has more exclusives", exclusives are atrocity that "blackmails" players into buying specific hardware just to play that specific games, it also open door for price gouging of games, its known that consoles are often sold at cost where real profit comes from selling overpriced games, bulk sales with overpriced exclusives and additional paid services


- paid services - console players are forced into subscriptions to play multiplayer games or play other games at all, agreeing to that supports this cancerous behaviour, why do i care for it? because if some company figures "if console sheeples are willing to pay for it why wont we try doing it elsewhere?"


- planned obsolence - not only consoles are not upgradeable and companies set their roadmaps where console player will have to buy next gen console to play new games but the games itself lack backward compatibility, somebody wants to play old game on new console? too bad, wait for our next overpriced remaster specifically for your console


- generally lowered expectation - console players being happy with 1080p 30fps (or fake 4k) makes game developers lazy, it results in bad games with bad optimization and spreads the cancerous mindset "if console players are happy with it lets make all games like this"


These are just few examples why consoles are bad and why saying "just buy both because..." is wrong. Why would i care what other people enjoy? Because they enjoy it without thinking of consequences and the consequences of they enjoying consoles will reach other people, PC gamers, me and ruin gaming industry that I enjoy now.
 

TheOtherOne

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You failed to mention how BAD a game is ported to PC. Most of these AAA titles suck big time at utilizing the FULL potential of PC hardware.

By doing so, console games will look like potatoes and they won't be able to sell those "exclusive" titles for consoles.

You simply can NOT compare console and PC, its like Apples to Peas. Because most of the developers never make a well tuned game for current PC hardware.
 

John_561

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This is such a null argument STILL. I have a 1080ti and a rift, and you're telling me SkyrimVR is as good in PSVR as it is on my rig? WRONG. Can I mod it on PSVR? NO! I've used consoles, I PC Game now for the beef and for the ubiquity of Steam, but this has always seemed like the biggest nonsense argument to me. Like comparing a smartcar to a Ferrari F40. True, consoles have made leaps and strides, but for the hardcore gamer looking to push the limits, just nope. LOL. Much less in consideration is the lack of internal upgradability, and the PLANNED obsolescence of consoles. The only thing I ever have to worry about upgrading is my GPU, and the last one I had before the TI was a GTX 760. How many consoles ago was that? 3? LOL I see where you're going, and yes, they have some nice exclusives, but it's comparing two types of machine that aren't IN the same league. Period.
 

Xeres Forteen

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Well PC master race here. I have a Scorpio though - and my PS3 for nostalgia. I prefer console for racing and fighting games. Everything else is PC.

As touched upon the biggest issue for me is the controller interface on the console and how terrible it is for ports to the PC. More development is needed in these games for a proper UI / input system which can convert from a simplified controller input system to a more robust mouse/KB system. I recall one game did this rather well but I cannot remember which it was. Maybe FF 14.
 

AlphaCompton

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I've been a long time PC gamer and I recently built a decent PC for up to 1440p gaming but starting with the PS3 I started to become quite invested in console gaming there for the exclusives but it wasn't until the PS4 gen that I started to purposefully buy some games on console instead of PC because my friends would be playing on console. I haven't regretted that decision, games look amazing and I recently upgraded to the PS4 PRO. Although the PRO could never touch my Kaby Lake and GTX 980, I'm still impressed with how games look and the added graphic options (resolution/framerate/effects) in most games. While every game runs better on my PC there are two games that work better on the PS4/PRO , Nier Automata and No Man's Sky. No Man's Sky looks and works wonderfully on the pro and Nier has optimization issues that you need to 3rd party hacks to play at full resolution/speed (wtf?) on the PC.
 


Do you have any stats showing the majority of console owners choose said console based on which one has more exclusive titles they want to play? Because I've never seen that. I never even played any of Sony's exclusives except their crappy Gran Tourismo non-real racing simulator and Drive Club which was no better in being a racing sim experience (unlike say Assetto Corsa and the Project Cars series).



It depends on what the buyer perceives as worthwhile in said paid service (read: online access gaming). For me, I enjoy Sony's monthly free games. Right now I'm enjoying two for the PS4: Mad Max and Trackmania Turbo.



Consoles are currently replaced on about a seven year cycle with mid-life cycle upgrades (PS4 Pro, XB1 X). If I want to play a 10 year old game, I'll fire up my unused PS3 sitting right next to my unused N64 which I can fire up if I want to play a 20 year old game. How far back do you expect new hardware to play old games? Remember, the PS2 was 16 years old before the PS3 came out.

Also keep in mind it's not just he hardware. Each new generation of console has a new OS version. The PS3's cell processor for example was entirely different than the PS4's AMD based APU so that required an entire reworking of the OS. People tend to forget about that.

But back to PC hardware, do you think it's beneficial for PC gamers that Intel has not made any revolutionary strides in their x86 chipset between 2nd generation Sandy Bridge and 8th generation Coffee Lake in seven years? According to a recent survey of community members by Tom's Hardware, about 65% of Intel PC owners are running on Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge, or Haswell based chipsets. There has been no need to upgrade CPUs for newer games especially at higher resolutions, and game developers sure know this.



Most console games now are developed for native 1080p 60FPS. And I'm not sure why you even bring up 4K since to get that to run on a PC at a solid 60Hz/60FPS in high quality settings, you need minimum of a GTX 1080 Ti. Which at current pricing you can buy both an XB1 X and PS4 Pro and buy two years of annual membership subscriptions for both. We are still a long way from affordable realistic 4K gameplay, console or not.



If you really want to look at what is harming PC gaming, look at the mining craze causing upper tier GPUs to be out of reach. Finally, you seem to have overlooked another big reason people have both. Some of us travel regularly between business and visiting family and friends and want to game away from home. We aren't all homebodies.

We don't exactly feel like lugging around a PC and monitor everywhere we go and want portability and easy of connection. Would you trust the airlines to handle your boxed up PC and monitor checked in when flying? So just go buy a gaming laptop you say? Buying a decent 1080p gaming laptop with a minimum of a GTX 1060 60FPS video card will set you back $1,200 minimum. And it can't be upgraded and is outdated in two years. Been there, done that. Only once.

I know what you are saying and used to think like that, but you have to face the facts now: the bottom line is that consoles are here to stay as they progress. I'm not going to spend $3,000 every 2-3 years between a desktop gaming PC and gaming laptop just so I can do my Master Race good by keeping PC gaming alive. I *would* like to retire some day.

Developers are focusing on consoles because that's where most of their revenue comes from these days. It has nothing to do with we who do both. It has everything to do with people who can't afford a decent PC game build that will perform similar to a console at the same price point/and or just don't want to mess with them with constant driver updates and other system maintenance. Remember, unlike PC games, console games are optimized to run at 60FPS with decent quality.
 

one_with_shadows

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I have SLI 1080 with an oc 6700k. It's even hooked up to the TV, and I can use my Xbox controller with it. I STILL own a PS4 and Xbox One S. Why? Stated perfectly in the article, exclusives. Besides, my Xbox is still a great 4k HDR player.
 
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Is this article a joke? God of War is a GREAT game but if anything it's an argument for why consoles are bad things. The game runs even my PS4 Pro at full fans cuz and only 30-40 fps on performance mode. It has a lot of moments where it just freezes while it loads since they decided to not have load scenes - it just happens whenever it wants too...mid-combat even. https://twitter.com/Kougeru/status/989221135710654465 (Minor weapon spoilers)

It also often times doesn't render the textures fast enough https://twitter.com/Kougeru/status/989218595078070272

So recap:
Low FPS (not smooth at all on performance mode...resolution mode runs better cuz its more stable at just 30fps)
loads and freezes the game at random times
texture loading issues despite all the tricks they use

You CANNOT argue against the fact that this game would be vastly superior on a PC, running at 60fps with far more VRAM and CPU power to work with. It's just a fact. This game is HEAVILY limited to the PS4's hardware. Fantastic game that could've been better.

Your argument makes it sound like exclusives are a good thing. They factually are not. They're stupid and anti-consumer. When games are the only thing you can use to convince people to buy your system, then it's because your system is unoriginal and weak.

And I can't minimize stuff instantly on PS4. even opening the menu takes a few seconds. PC it's instant. PC I can multitask hundreds of programs at once with basically no gaming performance lost while PS4 can only run one thing at a time, really. PC is superior.

And the controller thing. PC can use any controller that supports USB (basically all of them since 2006). So PC wins any "controller" argument. Dualshock is my favorite controller for games like God of War, JRPGs, Third person shooters, racing games, and fighting games. But KB/M for everything else. Having that option, and being able to do it on the fly is amazing.

So no, it's not time to end the console vs pc argument. Unless you mean console fanboys just start admitting the truth that PCs are superior. I have a PS4 but almost every game for it on PC. So it felt like a big waste of money until God of War came out. A few exclusives is not worth an entire console, really. After Read Dead 2 I see nothing for PS4.

The only good argument is that GPU prices are high. There's some evidence the prices should be dropping down soon. But if they don't these prices could affect next-gen consoles. One reason GPU prices are so high is because of RAM costs. Cryptocurrency is the big one but people ignore the RAM thing too often.

Also PCs are backwards compat going back decades. I can still play Diablo 1 on my PC.

TLDR: PC is superior in literally every way except price. This is fact. Back in 2016 I was able to build PCs quite a bit stronger than PS4 Pro for less than a Ps4 pro cost. That has changed, but it should be true again soon when the next line of GPUs comes out.
 
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I'm sorry, but what? Can you show me 10 please? From what Digital Foundry as shown. most are only running at 30 OR LESS. I'm having a hard time even thinking of 3 games that are not cartoon-like that run at 60 fps. The only ones that come up at the top of my head at Dragonball FighterZ and similar fighting games.

http://www.videogamerplus.com/2014/09/60-fps-native-1080p-ps4-games-list.html
(2014 but updated in March this year)

If that list is properly updated, then only like 10% of games are running at 1080p 60fps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_4_games
1763 games for PS4 (like 50 or so unreleased) and we only know of about 20-30 confirmed to run at true 1080p with a solid 60 fps. That's less than 3% of known PS4 games. 3%. No where close to "most". Even if we're nice and assumed there's 10 times more games running 1080p 60fps than we know 100% know about, that's still only 500 games out of 1763 - less than 30%.
 

icepick314

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I know developers can push 60fps on consoles but they don't. They are all pushing 4K which is at limit of what console GPUs can handle at this time. Everyone should try 4K on the next generation and focus on smooth gameplay instead.
 
Like someone else stated. I have very large hands. The controllers are just to small uncomfortable and the buttons are way to close. I can cover and press all 4 keys/buttons with my left thumb at once.
And lets just leave the Auto Aim/variable scroll speed crap out of the discussion.
My son has had pretty much every gaming console known and his first PC was an IBM in 92. I had no interest in computers until 96 when I found software to draw and render Home plans.
I played with my son quiet a bit on the earlier consoles but computer gaming was where the fun and excitement of multiplayer gaming began.
DESCENT changed everything.
 

Lasselundberg

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i only play first person shooters....doom, destiny, far cry....im old and set in my ways....the kids have an xbox, yet they still beg to use my pc....i tried halo on the xbox, and i simply cannot get used to the controller, its like playing doom in the old days with a joystick, only less precise ... i also fly quadcopter racers, so im familiar to using my thumbs for controlling the aircraft, but on the console im useless...each to his own i guess or simply have multiple platforms to keep everyone happy...but i will continue to use my 34" monitor in glorious 2K@120fps with dual 1080ti (bought just prices went nuts)...the consoles jagged edges and such bugs the hell out of me
 


Sorry for the miscommunication. I was referring to current games being developed. Not ones already released. Source: John Carmack. I'll see if I can dig up the interview on Youtube I saw last year. It may have been PC Gamer but I'll find it. And yes you are correct - current and past releases are relatively slim running native 1080p at 60fps.
 

Eaglecreeker

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well i guess i just never found consoles to be the smart choice for me,, ive always felt like even long after a gaming build gets replaced by a newer one it still has alot of value as a gift among family or friends,, economically speaking, when deciding what to use in my home theater i also went with a HTPC with a decent gpu because it offered more in almost every aspect,,but in hindsight i havent found gaming to be nearly as immersive as it is up close in my desktop set,,and now i have a overpriced tv media pc in some ways because many other options could have handled my audio /video requirements and left more than enough for a console purchase,,for the grandkids to enjoy when they come over,, either way thats a win imo :)
 
The game I'm playing is God of War (2018), and I swear it's making me a better person. Or better at least at killing gigantic foes rendered beautifully on the PlayStation 4. It's gaming of this caliber that keeps me interested in consoles, even though I’ve long been primarily a PC gamer.

There is no doubt in my mind that hard-to-process graphics is just normally a correlation and certainly not a causation of good looking graphics. Good graphics look good because they're made to look good, not because they require tons of processing power to do. I really see tons of games from over a decade ago that look better than many games coming out today and they require about 1/10 the processing power.

The mentality pitting the PC "versus" the game console has been prevalent for decades. Gamers switch from one platform to another, post and argue about which is superior, and call each other names. But honestly, the only thought I have about the great gaming divide is: Why not both?

I suppose a question for all of them the following questionbs:

1) is there an objectively superior platform or not?
2) If there is one, under what criteria will we determine the superior platform?
3) How do we know our criteria is correct criteria? Where does this correctness reside?
4) If there is no objectivity, then are we merely trying to infect others with out own subjective views?
 

0InVader0

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"Why not both?"

Because I'm happy to have enough money for a PC in the first place, in this day and age.

"...exclusives won't appear on the PC soon..."

*Laughs as he pre-orders Crash Bandicoot N-Sane trilogy for PC*

"...chances are the port won’t be done well..."

Why is it my fault that the developer sucks at his own job or is halfassing it?

"There aren't many downsides to console gaming, either"

Except that I'm forced to use a shitty controller, listen to kids screaming into the mic, pathetic hobos PM-ing me cuz they are bad at the game, the hardware doesn't even manage 1080 at 60fps and if it does, it's likely upscaled, not being able to do anything I want, not being able to multitask...

Instead of shilling so hard for Sony, why don't try finding something about those Samsung Q-Dot G-Sync VA panels that are supposed to come for a whole year now, but are nowhere to be seen?
 

nobspls

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These are some really good questions. Is it good enough to say there should be or there exists an objective criteria except people are all busy fight over what that objective criteria is?

Additionally is even the definition of platform is unspecified. Is the platform just simply hardware. If that is the case the best PC hardware is clearly objectively leaps and bounds ahead of console hardware. This is was never in dispute in anyone's mind except the deliberately obstinate and obtuse.

And this has to be the case because of cost, especially now, in the current era, that the consoles are built on top of PC based hardware. No corporation, sony, microsoft, nintendo, etc. can afford to give away GTX1080ti or Titan Pascal performance for less than $400, basically subsidizing at the minimum $600 of hardware with each unit sold. They will go out business really fast this way.

The thing is platform is really more than just hardware, the software, games, exclusives, social media, streaming, controllers, accessories, modifiability, upgradeability, freedom, etc. etc That will really muddy the waters how you define the platform and the criteria. The arguments will be academic and esoteric, but to say because people will fail to understand or communicate properly, so there is can not exist an criteria, that would be a logical fallacy.

 

KenTX

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I've always been a PC gaming guy but with consoles now reaching more a 'palatable' power level, I'm considering getting one.. or maybe next gen with Ryzen.

My biggest problem with consoles is the whole walled garden locked down paradigm. Only because of the used game market would I consider a console. In fact, that whole market is better than Steam sales so another plus for consoles.

Make no mistake though, I will ALWAYS favor PC gaming over Consoles and focusing on Linus gaming atm. (Run Windows 10 as well).

Preventing a monopoly on any gaming distribution platform is important to me and should be for you all as well.
 
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